FabSwingers.com forum: Furlough Fury

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Hi all, opinion sought please...I have furloughed some staff for almost 12 months and, from my own pocket, invested cash to top up the 20% salary so nobody suffered financially.

Essentially, some staff were on 100% income for 12 months whilst at home, doing what they do, and I called them occasionally to check they were ok and reassure they'd be kept on and they were still part of the set up.

One particular staff member is due to return next week and, out of the blue, demanded all of her holiday entitlement from last year! I kid you not. Legally she may be entitled to take holiday time, but she didn't put in a request and so far as I am concerned she's missed the boat.

Anyone think I am in the right to be severely pissed off with her attitude and expectation? Or am I being unreasonable? There's not been a word of thanks for the 20% top up either.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They have a bloody nerve , they have had a year off paid in full , ungrateful, I would email all of them and highlight how lucky they are to

1) have a good employer

2) to have a job to go back to

3) to have had one year off paid when others have had to go to work in this pandemic

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You have every right to be pissed off!!

My company made people take their holidays and not carry any over. But we were on 80% pay on furlough. For the holiday time we got 100% pay.

Might depend on the furlough money you claimed. Although if you were topping up the extra 20% then you could argue you already paid her for the holidays. Maybe work it out re: the 20%.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

Tell her she’s welcome to have the holidays as it will give her time to practise for her interview in the staff restructuring process on her return.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

She is within her rights.

Morally I can see why you would think she is taking liberties.

You should have told everyone that they were on holiday during furlough time.

I'd kick her in the crotch when she comes back.

See if you can get out of it - legally.

Don't go putting her under any patios.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thanks for the replies so far.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

Well if you have to sadly make any redundancies in the future...................

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

P.S.......... feeling fucked over doesn't trump employment law.

Check out holiday entitlements during furlough.

I'd even go as far as bluffing it in telling her that all holidays were given during furlough.

If she doesn't like that she may take you to court , she may think twice. At least it buys you time and if she has a union they will tell you what she is entitled to and that will save you searching it out.

Don't be cross with her cos she could go down the harrassment/bullying route.

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By *ex HolesMan
over a year ago

Up North

Tell her Mystique said she’s a cheeky cow and her morals are as low as a snakes belly.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

Killing with kindness is the key

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By *ficouldMan
over a year ago

a quandary, could you change my mind?

(I'm pretty sure she used to work for me, sorry you ended up with her) Understand how annoying it is for you.

I'd be careful about suggesting she has already taken her holiday as you made up the wages to the full 20%.I'm sure you know what/ when you can claim for your staff and not as the case may be.

She has already read through and knows exactly what she is entitled to.

It could be she has anxiety about returning. It could be she is one of the entitled ones :-/ .. only you know your staff and what she is like.

You can refuse the request of holiday on the dates she wants "due to operational requirements" then give her a few dates to take said holiday.

Remember what ever you do with her, you have to do with others.

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By *m3232Man
over a year ago

maidenhead

"Hi all, opinion sought please...I have furloughed some staff for almost 12 months and, from my own pocket, invested cash to top up the 20% salary so nobody suffered financially.

Anyone think I am in the right to be severely pissed off with her attitude and expectation? Or am I being unreasonable? There's not been a word of thanks for the 20% top up either.

Any thoughts? Thanks."

So she had all of last year off on 100%pay.

My only words redundant the perfect excuse to get rid now. She is taking the piss.

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By *adame 2SwordsWoman
over a year ago

Victoria, London

got any of child bearing age?

they accrue holiday whilst on maternity leave and add it on

enjoy

self employed, fallen through the system, not a penny for a year

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Would be a shame if you had to lay some staff off.

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By *etcplCouple
over a year ago

Gapping Fanny

You could argue that the 20% you topped them up was their holiday entitlement, assuming it covers their entitlement.

However it depends on what you told them the 20% top up was.

I know my wife got fucked over on furlough, they said they would use AL to top up each week from 80% to 100%, and instead used 5 days AL in the first week for 100% and then the rest of the weeks were paid at 80%

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Employment law is on her side.

We made people take leave on furlough. Being clear on contract changes, which furlough required, helps everyone.

I'm sorry you've experienced this after topping up the salary.

I'm considered controversial for suggesting that furlough is government welfare benefits and should be treated the same. I don't think it is fair that some get their salary and all the employment benefits and the (albeit lockdown-limited) freedom to do what they want with their time when others still might have to go to JobCentrePlus to discuss their worklessness.

That said, I'd prefer that benefits were uprated to ensure everyone survived well.

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By *iaisonseekerMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

If some of the leave she wants to take is from the previous leave year, I wouldn't have thought you have to allow her to carry this forward?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Under furlough rules holidays have to be carried across to the new year but the employer can tell the employee when they can and can't take them. (Within reason) is: it's not reasonable to have all staff off at the same time if the business is open. Look on .gov

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By *iaisonseekerMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

"Under furlough rules holidays have to be carried across to the new year but the employer can tell the employee when they can and can't take them. (Within reason) is: it's not reasonable to have all staff off at the same time if the business is open. Look on .gov"

Isn't that only for workers who haven't been able to take them because of the pressures of their job e.g. ICU nurses?

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By *luebell888Woman
over a year ago

Glasgowish

That is dreadful. I have worked throughout and even cancelled holiday leave to work last year when times were tough. Some people take the piss and i would deny her request and not trust her an inch.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

there could be another side to this that you haven’t considered

how much notice were they given to return to work? what is their current home situation? are they wanting the holidays because they need additional time to deal with the transition (might currently be living elsewhere or taken on care duties or other responsibilities because they were home anyway)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You’re right and they’re being unreasonable

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 11/03/21 19:23:28]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

didnt mean to delete - the post said its also possibly they don’t feel capable mentally or physically of such a drastic change back to work and they could use some holidays to turn it into w phased return

its not unreasonable to expect a scenario like that and its why it already often happens at the end of mat leave or ling term sick

ive been working all the way through from home and even for me the thought of going back to work overnight seems daunting

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

Morally she is being unreasonable but you might find that legally she is simply asking for what she is entitled to.

I get you're pissed off because you appear to have been generous by making up the 20% gap in wages but unless you were specific in what the rules were in regards to annual leave over the last year then you have no leg to stand on.

Of course you could find issues on which to dismiss her but you will need to make sure they are sound and she cannot link it to her request for what she may be entitled to otherwise you may find yourself on the end of an employment tribunal to boot!

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By *ixey and CopperCouple
over a year ago

Exeter

"Employment law is on her side.

We made people take leave on furlough. Being clear on contract changes, which furlough required, helps everyone.

I'm sorry you've experienced this after topping up the salary.

That said, I'd prefer that benefits were uprated to ensure everyone survived well.

The government made it clear last year that holiday needs to be extended and carried over for 2 years to protect the employee and employer.

During the first lockdown we let them acrue holiday as normal, when we reopened they could boom holiday as normal.

During the last lockdown we asked them to take holiday and they'd be paid 100%.

Legally we can give them 2 weeks notice to take 1 weeks holiday.

When we reopen this time their holiday allowance will have been used.

She is within her right to ask for the holiday, but should give double the amount of notice as time requested. You also have to give a fair reason to deny it.

Fair play for topping up their wages, but we've learnt the hard way to be fair, pay a good wage and that's it.

Been burnt too many times.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think you’re a big meanie.

She needs a holiday, we all do, it’s been a tough 12 months.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think you’re a big meanie.

She needs a holiday, we all do, it’s been a tough 12 months.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Employment law is on her side.

We made people take leave on furlough. Being clear on contract changes, which furlough required, helps everyone.

I'm sorry you've experienced this after topping up the salary.

That said, I'd prefer that benefits were uprated to ensure everyone survived well.

No one had to go to the jobcentre tbf

I have had 2 phonecalls since last year from my advisor, thats it

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/holiday-entitlement-and-pay-during-coronavirus-covid-19

Here's a link explaining annual leave accrual while on furlough.

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By *iaisonseekerMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

"https://www.gov.uk/guidance/holiday-entitlement-and-pay-during-coronavirus-covid-19

Here's a link explaining annual leave accrual while on furlough. "

That's basically what I thought regarding carrying over annual leave into the next leave year.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Make her redundant and then employ me. Simple

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Employment law is on her side.

We made people take leave on furlough. Being clear on contract changes, which furlough required, helps everyone.

I'm sorry you've experienced this after topping up the salary.

That said, I'd prefer that benefits were uprated to ensure everyone survived well.

No one had to go to the jobcentre tbf

I have had 2 phonecalls since last year from my advisor, thats it

Most haven't but the odd one has. Going in to JCP isn't what bothers me most.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Make her redundant and then employ me. Simple

Thats illegal

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They have a bloody nerve , they have had a year off paid in full , ungrateful, I would email all of them and highlight how lucky they are to

1) have a good employer

2) to have a job to go back to

3) to have had one year off paid when others have had to go to work in this pandemic "

My thoughts exactly

How can you accrue holiday, if your not working?!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Make her redundant and then employ me. Simple

Thats illegal"

Yes it is. It was also very much tongue in cheek

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By *edGrayCouple
over a year ago

Swindon

Running a small business for many years, I have always been box clever and managed staffs holidays on their behalf. They get quarterly reminders of their unused holiday allowance and a Memo 3 months in advance of when the holiday year comes to an end. This year has been no different. I personally think your employee is taking advantage of the situation, but unfortunately employment law is on their side.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"They have a bloody nerve , they have had a year off paid in full , ungrateful, I would email all of them and highlight how lucky they are to

1) have a good employer

2) to have a job to go back to

3) to have had one year off paid when others have had to go to work in this pandemic

My thoughts exactly

How can you accrue holiday, if your not working?!"

Because you can. People do it when sick and on maternity/shared paternity leave etc.

It's not her fault that employment law says she can ask for this. Is it perhaps the fault of the employer for not understanding their position?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I’ve had a lot of this kind of thing too, in similar circumstances. It’s sad that people can’t appreciate how lucky they are to have a solid job working for someone who’s done their best for them over the past year.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Make her redundant and then employ me. Simple

Thats illegal

Yes it is. It was also very much tongue in cheek"

Sorry sometimes i find it hard to tell

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By *hoenixcouplexxCouple
over a year ago

Leicestershire

Depends on what your policy says regarding the carrying over of holiday.

My company has a policy that dictates that when the new holiday year starts as of 1st April we can only carry over one week from the previous year. That is legally binding and it has been enforced.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Depends on what your policy says regarding the carrying over of holiday.

My company has a policy that dictates that when the new holiday year starts as of 1st April we can only carry over one week from the previous year. That is legally binding and it has been enforced."

Ours is normally a maximum of 9 days however this year they changed it to a maximum of 20 to be taken over the next 2 years.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Also, unused leave is paid when the employment ends. Unused leave sits on your accounts as a liability.

Always make people take their leave, even when on furlough.

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By *ixey and CopperCouple
over a year ago

Exeter

"Depends on what your policy says regarding the carrying over of holiday.

My company has a policy that dictates that when the new holiday year starts as of 1st April we can only carry over one week from the previous year. That is legally binding and it has been enforced."

With the first lockdown the government told employers to carry holiday over for 2 years.

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By *ebjonnsonMan
over a year ago

Maldon

"Tell her she’s welcome to have the holidays as it will give her time to practise for her interview in the staff restructuring process on her return. "

Brilliant!

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By *ools and the brainCouple
over a year ago

couple, us we him her.

It's been a bloody difficult time for everyone and to have been off with full pay for a year is a luxury that many haven't had.

Playing devils advocate.

Perhaps she's suffering from anxiety at the thought of returning to work after such an extended period and being safe and sound that whole time, whilst many people worked throughout and put themselves in harm's way.

Personally I think she has a cheek.

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By *iaisonseekerMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

"Depends on what your policy says regarding the carrying over of holiday.

My company has a policy that dictates that when the new holiday year starts as of 1st April we can only carry over one week from the previous year. That is legally binding and it has been enforced.

With the first lockdown the government told employers to carry holiday over for 2 years."

Only if it wasn't "reasonably practicable" for them to take all their holiday in the current leave year according to gov.uk.

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By *iaisonseekerMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

"It's been a bloody difficult time for everyone and to have been off with full pay for a year is a luxury that many haven't had.

Playing devils advocate.

Personally I think she has a cheek."

Perhaps she has got another job and doubled her income!

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By *alking HeadMan
over a year ago

Bolton

Do you not have a limit on how many hols can be carried over? My place has a limit of three days (unless agreed prior) and those three must be taken before the end of march the following year.

My company also furloughed certain staff and gave them the option to take every 1 in 5 of them as holidays to keep you at 100%. They also made up the difference to anyone who would usually earn over the £2500 cap that was set. Yet some people still took the piss. But they are people that have worked at the company all there lives and have no experience of any other employer. If the shit hits the fan properly and they end up going up the road, they will be in for a very rude awakening if they ever get another job. Their sense of entitlement astounds me to this day and I have been there two years now, but in the industry for 35 years.

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By *eefyBangerMan
over a year ago

edinburgh

Why are you even asking? Get a grip of yourself and make her redundant. She sounds like a complete and utter wrong ‘un.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Depends on what your policy says regarding the carrying over of holiday.

My company has a policy that dictates that when the new holiday year starts as of 1st April we can only carry over one week from the previous year. That is legally binding and it has been enforced.

With the first lockdown the government told employers to carry holiday over for 2 years."

they said it would be allowed per the tax system - they havent enforced it - my company didnt allow us to carry anything extra they told us to take them

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Tell her she’s welcome to have the holidays as it will give her time to practise for her interview in the staff restructuring process on her return. "

Good luck in the tribunal.

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By *iaisonseekerMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

"Why are you even asking? Get a grip of yourself and make her redundant. She sounds like a complete and utter wrong ‘un."

She can't be redundant if he's asked her to return to work. That means her job's still there.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

Why does she want the holiday, did she say?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We had similar issues last year... But communicated that staff could not carry holidays over into this year.. So some did not take their full allowance and 'lost' those days

Personally i would say its too late, but you might need to get legal advice

The cheek never fails to astound

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By *eah BabyCouple
over a year ago

Cheshire, Windermere ,Cumbria

What a cheeky so and so!!

Is it in her contract that holidays can not be rolled over into the following year? Could be your get out clause if so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Isn't that only for workers who haven't been able to take them because of the pressures of their job e.g. ICU nurses?"
I read it as any job. I work for two companies one all through lockdown and all holiday leave that was left had to be carried across in both cases.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm in employment law. You could of paid them holidays while on furlough. If the holiday year is ending get them to take it as holiday as normal but will not get furlough for that time. Just like normal pay and holiday time allowances

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By *uliaChrisCouple
over a year ago

westerham

"Why are you even asking? Get a grip of yourself and make her redundant. She sounds like a complete and utter wrong ‘un.

She can't be redundant if he's asked her to return to work. That means her job's still there."

If she really is lazy and entitled (rather than scared to come back to work) then are you gonna suffer that much from her taking more holidays?

Main practical issue will be the effect on the other staff's moral.

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By *unkym34Man
over a year ago

London

"Hi all, opinion sought please...I have furloughed some staff for almost 12 months and, from my own pocket, invested cash to top up the 20% salary so nobody suffered financially.

Anyone think I am in the right to be severely pissed off with her attitude and expectation? Or am I being unreasonable? There's not been a word of thanks for the 20% top up either.

Any thoughts? Thanks."
This year has cause stress for everyone. Yes she is in the wrong for asking for all her holiday in one go ( and to be honest I don’t think you should have to give it at all it was last years entitlement ). Maybe see why she wants it. She could actually just be very anxious about returning to work could be somthing you can help with work around. However these are some of the things I found when we had to unfurloughe people

- they had traveled abroad to stay with family and had / could not give a return date

- had cancelled their nursery place to save money so now had no child care and couldn’t get any

- where currently doing voluntary work and had asked for a further two weeks to wrap it up.

- had taken another job and needed to give 4 weeks notice to get their full pay

- had agreed to cover their fathers Uber shifts for next three weeks while he had operation ( I shit you not reported to Uber )

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By *unkym34Man
over a year ago

London

"We had similar issues last year... But communicated that staff could not carry holidays over into this year.. So some did not take their full allowance and 'lost' those days

Personally i would say its too late, but you might need to get legal advice

The cheek never fails to astound "
to be fair even if she is entitled to carry them over I think he would be within his rights to allocate the rolled over holidays. Certainly I would say no to taking them when trying to restart a business up

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By *ang bang bangity bangCouple
over a year ago

Sunderland

Just to echo what a lot of people have said here, employment law is on her side but have a chat with her. There may be a different reason going on for wanting all her holiday in one go.

What does you employee handbook or contract say about maximum periods of leave and notice required for requesting leave?

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By *ichaelangelaCouple
over a year ago

notts

tell her you are going to pay her the holidays, drop every employee down to 80% and tell them why you have done it and who is to blame.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"tell her you are going to pay her the holidays, drop every employee down to 80% and tell them why you have done it and who is to blame."

Why on earth would be do that?

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By *uliaChrisCouple
over a year ago

westerham

"Hi all, opinion sought please...I have furloughed some staff for almost 12 months and, from my own pocket, invested cash to top up the 20% salary so nobody suffered financially.

Anyone think I am in the right to be severely pissed off with her attitude and expectation? Or am I being unreasonable? There's not been a word of thanks for the 20% top up either.

Any thoughts? Thanks. This year has cause stress for everyone. Yes she is in the wrong for asking for all her holiday in one go ( and to be honest I don’t think you should have to give it at all it was last years entitlement ). Maybe see why she wants it. She could actually just be very anxious about returning to work could be somthing you can help with work around. However these are some of the things I found when we had to unfurloughe people

- they had traveled abroad to stay with family and had / could not give a return date

- had cancelled their nursery place to save money so now had no child care and couldn’t get any

- where currently doing voluntary work and had asked for a further two weeks to wrap it up.

- had taken another job and needed to give 4 weeks notice to get their full pay

- had agreed to cover their fathers Uber shifts for next three weeks while he had operation ( I shit you not reported to Uber )

Fair points indeed

Still need to be very careful because even asking someone why they want their (contractual) holiday could be a legal problem lol

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By *ichaelangelaCouple
over a year ago

notts

"tell her you are going to pay her the holidays, drop every employee down to 80% and tell them why you have done it and who is to blame.

Why on earth would be do that?"

Peer pressure from other employees

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By *uliaChrisCouple
over a year ago

westerham

"tell her you are going to pay her the holidays, drop every employee down to 80% and tell them why you have done it and who is to blame.

Why on earth would be do that?

Peer pressure from other employees "

What could go wrong lol

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thanks again for the comments - I only expected a handful of replies, so thank you.

Will be discussing this further with her next week, after deciding to sleep on it for a few days. Wouldn't want to make any rash decisions!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You can be pissed off as much as you like....it's business! Keep emotions out and do the right things, take legal advice if you think it's wrong

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

First off fair play to you for putting the extra 20% in out of your own pocket, what a nice thing to do....

As for if she's taking the piss or not, I guess whatever is said on here, it all depends whether u feel she's taking a liberty by asking for her holiday entitlement

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By *heGateKeeperMan
over a year ago

Stratford

I get the frustration but as others have said legally she’s entitled to it.

At our work they were clear about only carrying over X amount of days, no exceptions.

It’s worth thinking that others might ask for the same and the consequences of that. No doubt she’ll be shouting from the roof tops that she’s got one over

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Thanks again for the comments - I only expected a handful of replies, so thank you.

Will be discussing this further with her next week, after deciding to sleep on it for a few days. Wouldn't want to make any rash decisions!

Also think about how to be clearer for this year in terms of what you are prepared to allow in terms of holiday /pay and start communicating

We communicated early Q2 that 50% of holidays were expected to be planned for the year by June which helped to set expectations.

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By *atnip make me purrWoman
over a year ago

Reading

Many companys have a use it or lose it - I can carry over only 5 days.

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By *moothdickMan
over a year ago

stoke

They are entitled to 28 days including bank holidays ..... due to her not working then she wouldnt be given average holiday pay for the first 20 days .... so if you’ve paid her, her salary then there is no money discrepancy, so I’d say you’d have every right to tell her she had her holidays with in that year and been paid the exact moneys .... it’s ppls responsibility to take their holiday entitlement.. the employer doesn’t tell them how to use em.. so if I was u, I’d say her entitlement was included and it’s her responsibility to book em, you’ve paid her... then I’d sack the piss taking mule .. furlough is and was a new thing so we all didn’t and still don’t know all the rules ..... tell her she’s been released to restructuring .... in my opinion you’ve been more than fair and good on u, for making the extra 20% up... some ppl are just ungrateful greedy fuckers ... go into liquidation and sack with nothing and open a new company name next day, taking all the staff back on bar her .....

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By *r TriomanMan
over a year ago

Chippenham Malmesbury area

The company that I work for makes it my responsibility to take my leave. Normally I'm allowed to carry over 10 day, this year because of COVID-19,I'm entitled to carry over 15 days (so 50% not including back holidays).

If you're employee didn't take her leave then that's her fault; I'd offer her 50% max carry over.

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By *hatYorkLadMan
over a year ago

York

We had that with people putting in holidays in September last year when they were due back in after six months on furlough. My boss put his foot down and said those who have been kept working have priority on booking time off.

There was one who was on maternity up until a year ago, got pregnant again at the start of furlough then came back at the end of furlough and announced she was going off on maternity for another year. Perfectly legal but hasn't half annoyed the people who have been covering her work all this time!

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By *heGateKeeperMan
over a year ago

Stratford

When does your holiday year run from because it’s a good point people are making that if it’s in a new year that she’s only entitled to what she’s accrued for the current year

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By *r TriomanMan
over a year ago

Chippenham Malmesbury area

Found this online:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rules-on-carrying-over-annual-leave-to-be-relaxed-to-support-key-industries-during-covid-19

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By *viatrixWoman
over a year ago

Redhill

"Make her redundant and then employ me. Simple

Lol you beat me to it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Careful of any potential tribunal claims...the judges are being hard on employers at the moment

Contact acas

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