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"People upload porn videos on here. I'm sure they can't all be forced against their will. " Which were my thoughts exactly when I was arguing with her blanket statement of “no porn is ever ethical”. But she doesn’t know I’m on here so it was an awkward debate  | |||
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"I'm not quite sure what you mean by ethical in this context But I suspect that most of the porn that is freely available online is exploitative in some way " What she meant when I asked was, “fully consensual and not in any way degrading or exploitative to those involved”. | |||
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" If a fully consented video is uploaded to fabswingers by a couple is deemed ethical but is then copied and posted on a porn sharing site by some unscrupulous person is it still ethical?" The stealing of it certainly isn't. And sometimes you do have to wonder how much content posted on porn site is actually there with the knowledge of the real owner. | |||
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"So... I got into quite a heated debate with a friend about the “ethics of porn”. She was adamant that there is absolutely no porn that exists in the world that can ever be considered completely ethical, as you never know the circumstances behind the making of the content and/or the uploading of it. She has quite strong, classically feminist views, and she argued that porn does nothing other than perpetuate the “torture and abuse” of women (verbatim quote). I queried how she could say that, for example, a video of a lone male pleasuring himself could be seen as perpetuating torture and abuse; she argued that you “never know if he’s in a coercive relationship and that video was uploaded without his consent”. As a porn consumer myself, this got me questioning my own morals a bit. I suppose it’s all just left me feeling a little uncomfortable. So I was hoping for all your thoughts on it. Is porn ever ethical? " “Porn consumer” That’s a new description lol. | |||
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"I think your friend is wrong in saying all porn is unethical. I do see where she is coming from though, because unless you know that person extremely well then you never do know the circumstances behind it. So I can see why she is so against it. I do think there is a worrying amount of people who are pressured into porn and exploited, whether that is for money or they are forced, underage, videos used without consent, they feel like they have no other choice etc. And when you think about it, it does make you uncomfortable as most of the time we never know. And it is something I have been thinking about more and more lately after reading something disturbing about Pornhub. But, from another point, I've shared pictures on here and videos privately which would be classed as porn and I am 100% happy to do so. I know there are so many others who do this too. But then it goes back to my earlier point... if you didn't know me then how would you know I wasn't being exploited? I definitely can see why your friend feels the way she does. " Yes - these are some of the same thoughts I’d been having. She was asking how can you ever fully know the person wasn’t coerced in some way. I instantly thought about this site and how we’re all consenting adults uploading our own content. But you’re right - the consumer doesn’t necessarily know that you were consenting in the first place. It’s just made me completely re think my views on it all. | |||
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"So... I got into quite a heated debate with a friend about the “ethics of porn”. She was adamant that there is absolutely no porn that exists in the world that can ever be considered completely ethical, as you never know the circumstances behind the making of the content and/or the uploading of it. She has quite strong, classically feminist views, and she argued that porn does nothing other than perpetuate the “torture and abuse” of women (verbatim quote). I queried how she could say that, for example, a video of a lone male pleasuring himself could be seen as perpetuating torture and abuse; she argued that you “never know if he’s in a coercive relationship and that video was uploaded without his consent”. As a porn consumer myself, this got me questioning my own morals a bit. I suppose it’s all just left me feeling a little uncomfortable. So I was hoping for all your thoughts on it. Is porn ever ethical? “Porn consumer” That’s a new description lol. "  it was hers!
I’d never before heard that term or the term “unethical porn” before. Maybe I’m very naive.  | |||
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" If a fully consented video is uploaded to fabswingers by a couple is deemed ethical but is then copied and posted on a porn sharing site by some unscrupulous person is it still ethical?" That’s the concern isn’t it.... surely that’s where it becomes no longer ethical?  | |||
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"People upload porn videos on here. I'm sure they can't all be forced against their will. Which were my thoughts exactly when I was arguing with her blanket statement of “no porn is ever ethical”. But she doesn’t know I’m on here so it was an awkward debate "Oops  x | |||
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"Your friend has some fair but dated knee jerk reactions to porn it would seem and yes capitalism by it's very nature is exploitative. However the industry itself has gone through many positive changes over the years with a movement towards women creators as well. There are many very accomplished women who with the creation of podcast have been speaking about their own experiences in the industry and when they boil it down it is no different than any other. Yes it used to be a man's world with female stars. Now there are more women behind the camera and there for kinder direction and it is the only industry where the female actors are paid more than their male counterparts. Of course there is still room for corruption but that is why we as consumers have to be vigilant with what we choose to consume. The next time your friend starts on about exploitation just remind them what clothes they are wearing. Likely made in a sweatshop. Or the coffee they are drinking and the poor people being paid pennies so we can have it cheap. Or even the exploited miners so we can use our phones. I think when your friend really thinks about their objections to porn. It is the sexuality of it rather than the exploitation of it. Are they going to stop consuming and fight for all exploited people." Fair point. | |||
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"People upload porn videos on here. I'm sure they can't all be forced against their will. " Certainly not all.. But i guess how do you 'know' both parties are in the vid/consented to it being shown? I've had pics stolen on here of me and my DD and then the stealer has uploaded them on here and displayed it as if it is him and his partner... Which to the innocent viewer it would appear to be so.. Am sure there are plenty of vids that are not the posters? And plenty of people in vids who didn't expect to be in the public domain? | |||
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"People upload porn videos on here. I'm sure they can't all be forced against their will. Certainly not all.. But i guess how do you 'know' both parties are in the vid/consented to it being shown? I've had pics stolen on here of me and my DD and then the stealer has uploaded them on here and displayed it as if it is him and his partner... Which to the innocent viewer it would appear to be so.. Am sure there are plenty of vids that are not the posters? And plenty of people in vids who didn't expect to be in the public domain? "  | |||
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"So... I got into quite a heated debate with a friend about the “ethics of porn”. She was adamant that there is absolutely no porn that exists in the world that can ever be considered completely ethical, as you never know the circumstances behind the making of the content and/or the uploading of it. She has quite strong, classically feminist views, and she argued that porn does nothing other than perpetuate the “torture and abuse” of women (verbatim quote). I queried how she could say that, for example, a video of a lone male pleasuring himself could be seen as perpetuating torture and abuse; she argued that you “never know if he’s in a coercive relationship and that video was uploaded without his consent”. As a porn consumer myself, this got me questioning my own morals a bit. I suppose it’s all just left me feeling a little uncomfortable. So I was hoping for all your thoughts on it. Is porn ever ethical? " This is fast becoming my opinion. When I have viewed it, I've found the amateur stuff more pleasing as it seems more authentic. But how can you ever tell if it's been uploaded with the participants' full consent? How do you know they have not been coerced? And even if you're sure that isn't the case with the material you're viewing, it disturbed me that I was using a platform that had been found to share videos of underage girls and trafficked women. (Well known porn site....loads of vids taken down not so long ago). Maybe just best to stick with the fantasies in my head going forward or camming with like minded individuals. | |||
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"Couldn't you also argue that with any other form of media? Unethical films where the actors are coerced into playing roles they don't want to in order to get a jumpstart in their career. Unethical sports because of pushy parents who took their children's lifestyle into their own hands to make them the best. I think you can twist this argument into whatever narrative you see fit to show the extent of exploitation in these mediums." Yeah I did say what about the sex scenes actors are encouraged to do when they don’t want to etc ... she said that’s not remotely the same as they aren’t being painfully penetrated  | |||
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"So... I got into quite a heated debate with a friend about the “ethics of porn”. She was adamant that there is absolutely no porn that exists in the world that can ever be considered completely ethical, as you never know the circumstances behind the making of the content and/or the uploading of it. She has quite strong, classically feminist views, and she argued that porn does nothing other than perpetuate the “torture and abuse” of women (verbatim quote). I queried how she could say that, for example, a video of a lone male pleasuring himself could be seen as perpetuating torture and abuse; she argued that you “never know if he’s in a coercive relationship and that video was uploaded without his consent”. As a porn consumer myself, this got me questioning my own morals a bit. I suppose it’s all just left me feeling a little uncomfortable. So I was hoping for all your thoughts on it. Is porn ever ethical? " It’s obviously a complicated question but porn is one of the very few industries where women get paid more than men. So I think an ambitious woman can get involved in pornography with the clear intent of making money in her own free will without being exploited. Undoubtedly like all industries, people will be exploited. There’s also the gay for pay for male stars who do stuff they’re not particularly keen on in order to get a start in the business and make some money. I’m not sure I answered the question but it’s food for thought and will hopefully stimulate a bit of debate. | |||
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"People upload porn videos on here. I'm sure they can't all be forced against their will. " There are many people in a relationship who appear uncoerced. Then there are those that honestly believe they did it of their own free will and it was their choice. They haven't yet seen it from outside of the circle or from above..... they haven't questioned why they did it for someone else etc etc...... All is NOT how it seems MOST of the time. | |||
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"Your friend sounds like a SWERF I’m sorry to say. She’s completely ignoring all the women who do it because they want to. There is plenty of ethical porn out there, but one generally has to pay for it. It’s not hard to research a porn studio to find out how they operate, and I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by some I’ve found recently. I generally prefer the ones where women are behind the cameras as well as in front. Then there are sites like OnlyFans, which I know is widely hated on here, but most of the content is directly posted by the models themselves. They require full ID to prove age before you can post anything, and if anyone else feature in your content (even if it’s just their hand) you either have to provide their ID and consent form; or they have to set up their own fully ID’d and verified account so you can tag them in your post to show their consent. Yes, sure, some women start doing OF because they’re desperate and think they’ll make some quick money that way. But I think the majority are doing it because they want to. As for exploitation, who is the one being exploited? The woman posting nudes because she wants to, or the man paying to look at them? Also, if I upload solo play videos to a free site, because I want to, how am I being exploited or contributing to the exploitation of other women? I just don’t see any logic there. Most free porn, unless it’s uploaded by enthusiastic amateurs or is free tasters for paid content, is stolen so is automatically unethical. But if you’re buying content I’d say it isn’t hard to find good quality ethical porn." What is a SWERF? | |||
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"How are you feeling now OP based on the varying responses? " Quite conflicted still if I’m honest! | |||
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"Your friend sounds like a SWERF I’m sorry to say. She’s completely ignoring all the women who do it because they want to. There is plenty of ethical porn out there, but one generally has to pay for it. It’s not hard to research a porn studio to find out how they operate, and I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by some I’ve found recently. I generally prefer the ones where women are behind the cameras as well as in front. Then there are sites like OnlyFans, which I know is widely hated on here, but most of the content is directly posted by the models themselves. They require full ID to prove age before you can post anything, and if anyone else feature in your content (even if it’s just their hand) you either have to provide their ID and consent form; or they have to set up their own fully ID’d and verified account so you can tag them in your post to show their consent. Yes, sure, some women start doing OF because they’re desperate and think they’ll make some quick money that way. But I think the majority are doing it because they want to. As for exploitation, who is the one being exploited? The woman posting nudes because she wants to, or the man paying to look at them? Also, if I upload solo play videos to a free site, because I want to, how am I being exploited or contributing to the exploitation of other women? I just don’t see any logic there. Most free porn, unless it’s uploaded by enthusiastic amateurs or is free tasters for paid content, is stolen so is automatically unethical. But if you’re buying content I’d say it isn’t hard to find good quality ethical porn. What is a SWERF?" A quick Google says: Sex Worker-Exclusionary Radical Feminist, a label for a woman who supports mainstream feminism but opposes sex work, believing it is ultimately oppressive. | |||
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"Your friend has some fair but dated knee jerk reactions to porn it would seem and yes capitalism by it's very nature is exploitative. However the industry itself has gone through many positive changes over the years with a movement towards women creators as well. There are many very accomplished women who with the creation of podcast have been speaking about their own experiences in the industry and when they boil it down it is no different than any other. Yes it used to be a man's world with female stars. Now there are more women behind the camera and there for kinder direction and it is the only industry where the female actors are paid more than their male counterparts. Of course there is still room for corruption but that is why we as consumers have to be vigilant with what we choose to consume. The next time your friend starts on about exploitation just remind them what clothes they are wearing. Likely made in a sweatshop. Or the coffee they are drinking and the poor people being paid pennies so we can have it cheap. Or even the exploited miners so we can use our phones. I think when your friend really thinks about their objections to porn. It is the sexuality of it rather than the exploitation of it. Are they going to stop consuming and fight for all exploited people. Fair point." I don't find it a fair point at all. The question is.... Is porn ethical? Nothing to do with clothing, coffee or any other counter factual that is put forward to discredit the O.P.'s friends opinion re the ethical nature of porn. She said porn isn't ethical. So ..... is porn ethical ? | |||
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"Your friend sounds like a SWERF I’m sorry to say. She’s completely ignoring all the women who do it because they want to. There is plenty of ethical porn out there, but one generally has to pay for it. It’s not hard to research a porn studio to find out how they operate, and I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by some I’ve found recently. I generally prefer the ones where women are behind the cameras as well as in front. Then there are sites like OnlyFans, which I know is widely hated on here, but most of the content is directly posted by the models themselves. They require full ID to prove age before you can post anything, and if anyone else feature in your content (even if it’s just their hand) you either have to provide their ID and consent form; or they have to set up their own fully ID’d and verified account so you can tag them in your post to show their consent. Yes, sure, some women start doing OF because they’re desperate and think they’ll make some quick money that way. But I think the majority are doing it because they want to. As for exploitation, who is the one being exploited? The woman posting nudes because she wants to, or the man paying to look at them? Also, if I upload solo play videos to a free site, because I want to, how am I being exploited or contributing to the exploitation of other women? I just don’t see any logic there. Most free porn, unless it’s uploaded by enthusiastic amateurs or is free tasters for paid content, is stolen so is automatically unethical. But if you’re buying content I’d say it isn’t hard to find good quality ethical porn." I did say it’s sometimes about choice and enjoyment as opposed to oppression but she was having none of that. Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? | |||
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"So... I got into quite a heated debate with a friend about the “ethics of porn”. She was adamant that there is absolutely no porn that exists in the world that can ever be considered completely ethical, as you never know the circumstances behind the making of the content and/or the uploading of it. She has quite strong, classically feminist views, and she argued that porn does nothing other than perpetuate the “torture and abuse” of women (verbatim quote). I queried how she could say that, for example, a video of a lone male pleasuring himself could be seen as perpetuating torture and abuse; she argued that you “never know if he’s in a coercive relationship and that video was uploaded without his consent”. As a porn consumer myself, this got me questioning my own morals a bit. I suppose it’s all just left me feeling a little uncomfortable. So I was hoping for all your thoughts on it. Is porn ever ethical? " In my opinion no, porn isn't ethical. Which is one of the reasons I choose not to watch it. But I suspect you'll see many people defending it here. | |||
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"Your friend sounds like a SWERF I’m sorry to say. She’s completely ignoring all the women who do it because they want to. There is plenty of ethical porn out there, but one generally has to pay for it. It’s not hard to research a porn studio to find out how they operate, and I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by some I’ve found recently. I generally prefer the ones where women are behind the cameras as well as in front. Then there are sites like OnlyFans, which I know is widely hated on here, but most of the content is directly posted by the models themselves. They require full ID to prove age before you can post anything, and if anyone else feature in your content (even if it’s just their hand) you either have to provide their ID and consent form; or they have to set up their own fully ID’d and verified account so you can tag them in your post to show their consent. Yes, sure, some women start doing OF because they’re desperate and think they’ll make some quick money that way. But I think the majority are doing it because they want to. As for exploitation, who is the one being exploited? The woman posting nudes because she wants to, or the man paying to look at them? Also, if I upload solo play videos to a free site, because I want to, how am I being exploited or contributing to the exploitation of other women? I just don’t see any logic there. Most free porn, unless it’s uploaded by enthusiastic amateurs or is free tasters for paid content, is stolen so is automatically unethical. But if you’re buying content I’d say it isn’t hard to find good quality ethical porn. What is a SWERF? A quick Google says: Sex Worker-Exclusionary Radical Feminist, a label for a woman who supports mainstream feminism but opposes sex work, believing it is ultimately oppressive." Labels are generally brought in to discredit. There's no need for them if your own opinions and ideas are clear enough and factual enough ( not aimed at anyone at all...... just the label ) | |||
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"Your friend sounds like a SWERF I’m sorry to say. She’s completely ignoring all the women who do it because they want to. There is plenty of ethical porn out there, but one generally has to pay for it. It’s not hard to research a porn studio to find out how they operate, and I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by some I’ve found recently. I generally prefer the ones where women are behind the cameras as well as in front. Then there are sites like OnlyFans, which I know is widely hated on here, but most of the content is directly posted by the models themselves. They require full ID to prove age before you can post anything, and if anyone else feature in your content (even if it’s just their hand) you either have to provide their ID and consent form; or they have to set up their own fully ID’d and verified account so you can tag them in your post to show their consent. Yes, sure, some women start doing OF because they’re desperate and think they’ll make some quick money that way. But I think the majority are doing it because they want to. As for exploitation, who is the one being exploited? The woman posting nudes because she wants to, or the man paying to look at them? Also, if I upload solo play videos to a free site, because I want to, how am I being exploited or contributing to the exploitation of other women? I just don’t see any logic there. Most free porn, unless it’s uploaded by enthusiastic amateurs or is free tasters for paid content, is stolen so is automatically unethical. But if you’re buying content I’d say it isn’t hard to find good quality ethical porn. I did say it’s sometimes about choice and enjoyment as opposed to oppression but she was having none of that. Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? " Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood. | |||
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" Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood." Yeah i come across that bottom statement a lot... And see it translate to different industries (ie, i have a camera why shoukd i pay for photos , or you only changed a screw why does it cost so much) | |||
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" Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood. Yeah i come across that bottom statement a lot... And see it translate to different industries (ie, i have a camera why shoukd i pay for photos , or you only changed a screw why does it cost so much) " Ahh ok, so hated by men on here you mean? I don’t know a great deal about OF to be honest. I feel I need to educate myself further on all of this! | |||
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"Unfortunately it’s the society that we have today Yes there is porn around that demeans women and men and other But there’s always the choice to do it or not to do it . To watch it or not to watch it. I hate some porn and don’t agree with it but I wouldn’t jump on a pedestal and say it shouldn’t be allowed because I don’t like it. Unfortunately the woke brigade will try to stifle everyone until they agree with them " Please don’t start with the “woke” stuff. It’s usually older, less liberal feminists who have a problem with sex work. The more “woke” people support sex workers, their right to choose to be (or not be) sex workers, and their right to do that work safely. | |||
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" Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood. Yeah i come across that bottom statement a lot... And see it translate to different industries (ie, i have a camera why shoukd i pay for photos , or you only changed a screw why does it cost so much) Ahh ok, so hated by men on here you mean? I don’t know a great deal about OF to be honest. I feel I need to educate myself further on all of this! " Yeah pretty much. Not all of them hate it, but the kind of comments I mentioned are very common. It’s not always the greatest platform, and there are others that work in a similar way, but I like the direct link between the model/creator and the fan, and I like that women are much more in control of the content they make. | |||
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"Your friend sounds like a SWERF I’m sorry to say. She’s completely ignoring all the women who do it because they want to. There is plenty of ethical porn out there, but one generally has to pay for it. It’s not hard to research a porn studio to find out how they operate, and I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by some I’ve found recently. I generally prefer the ones where women are behind the cameras as well as in front. Then there are sites like OnlyFans, which I know is widely hated on here, but most of the content is directly posted by the models themselves. They require full ID to prove age before you can post anything, and if anyone else feature in your content (even if it’s just their hand) you either have to provide their ID and consent form; or they have to set up their own fully ID’d and verified account so you can tag them in your post to show their consent. Yes, sure, some women start doing OF because they’re desperate and think they’ll make some quick money that way. But I think the majority are doing it because they want to. As for exploitation, who is the one being exploited? The woman posting nudes because she wants to, or the man paying to look at them? Also, if I upload solo play videos to a free site, because I want to, how am I being exploited or contributing to the exploitation of other women? I just don’t see any logic there. Most free porn, unless it’s uploaded by enthusiastic amateurs or is free tasters for paid content, is stolen so is automatically unethical. But if you’re buying content I’d say it isn’t hard to find good quality ethical porn. I did say it’s sometimes about choice and enjoyment as opposed to oppression but she was having none of that. Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood." I suppose they just don’t see any value for money. It’s not like they are buying anything with intrinsic value. | |||
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" Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood. I suppose they just don’t see any value for money. It’s not like they are buying anything with intrinsic value." I know you’re not interested in the actual answer, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this: Of course it has intrinsic value. The time and skills involved in styling, hair, and makeup for a shoot have a value. The lingerie, toys, props, photography equipment, lighting etc have a value. The hours spent editing photos and videos have a value. The admin - uploading content, dealing with enquiries and fan messages, keeping records for tax and doing a tax return, etc etc etc - has a value. You go and try and get someone to do any of those things for you without expecting payment, even in an everyday, fully clothed context. No-one will. That’s even without getting into your frankly gross insinuation that people’s bodies are valueless and that the world is entitled to look at them for free. | |||
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" Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood. I suppose they just don’t see any value for money. It’s not like they are buying anything with intrinsic value. I know you’re not interested in the actual answer, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this: Of course it has intrinsic value. The time and skills involved in styling, hair, and makeup for a shoot have a value. The lingerie, toys, props, photography equipment, lighting etc have a value. The hours spent editing photos and videos have a value. The admin - uploading content, dealing with enquiries and fan messages, keeping records for tax and doing a tax return, etc etc etc - has a value. You go and try and get someone to do any of those things for you without expecting payment, even in an everyday, fully clothed context. No-one will. That’s even without getting into your frankly gross insinuation that people’s bodies are valueless and that the world is entitled to look at them for free." There’s no need for your abrasive response. All of your description of value are actually production costs. What does the consumer actually own ? | |||
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"i met a porn star on holiday last year 50% of me thought wow this woman (young girl really compared to me as she was only 22) is totally empowered, she enjoys what she does and shes making a bloody fortune doing it (owns an adult social media platform) - shes not just a porn star shes a business woman and making this work for her completely the other 50% wondered about the fact her husband owns the business with her and he was 9 years her senior and they had been together for 8 years - a 23 year old dating a 14 year old who then becomes a porn star - i had to wonder how she decided that career path and was she groomed " I'd say groomed. There's a word for that. And it's not "boyfriend". | |||
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"Couldn't you also argue that with any other form of media? Unethical films where the actors are coerced into playing roles they don't want to in order to get a jumpstart in their career. Unethical sports because of pushy parents who took their children's lifestyle into their own hands to make them the best. I think you can twist this argument into whatever narrative you see fit to show the extent of exploitation in these mediums. Yeah I did say what about the sex scenes actors are encouraged to do when they don’t want to etc ... she said that’s not remotely the same as they aren’t being painfully penetrated "okay the painfully penetrated comment makes me think there is more personal stuff underlying your friends thoughts tbh - this isn’t about exploitation or ethics - its about sex | |||
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" Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood." majority of fab single men then particularly the join saturday night/ sunday morning and leave by tuesday zombie wanker accounts haha | |||
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"Porn by its nature is exploitative, to both males and females. Male it exploits their need for visual stimulation and wallets, females it exploits to exploit males. How do you differentiate between ethical or unethical porn, what is the definition of ethical in this context. " thats like saying cadbury is exploiting our wallets for selling chocolate when they know people get cravings for chocolate offering something which is optional for sale at a price is not exploitation | |||
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"People upload porn videos on here. I'm sure they can't all be forced against their will. " Do you have to be site subscriber to view videos? | |||
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" Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood. I suppose they just don’t see any value for money. It’s not like they are buying anything with intrinsic value. I know you’re not interested in the actual answer, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this: Of course it has intrinsic value. The time and skills involved in styling, hair, and makeup for a shoot have a value. The lingerie, toys, props, photography equipment, lighting etc have a value. The hours spent editing photos and videos have a value. The admin - uploading content, dealing with enquiries and fan messages, keeping records for tax and doing a tax return, etc etc etc - has a value. You go and try and get someone to do any of those things for you without expecting payment, even in an everyday, fully clothed context. No-one will. That’s even without getting into your frankly gross insinuation that people’s bodies are valueless and that the world is entitled to look at them for free. There’s no need for your abrasive response. All of your description of value are actually production costs. What does the consumer actually own ?" consumers pay to go to the cinema or the theatre or a concert - afterward what does the consumer own? | |||
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" Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood. I suppose they just don’t see any value for money. It’s not like they are buying anything with intrinsic value. I know you’re not interested in the actual answer, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this: Of course it has intrinsic value. The time and skills involved in styling, hair, and makeup for a shoot have a value. The lingerie, toys, props, photography equipment, lighting etc have a value. The hours spent editing photos and videos have a value. The admin - uploading content, dealing with enquiries and fan messages, keeping records for tax and doing a tax return, etc etc etc - has a value. You go and try and get someone to do any of those things for you without expecting payment, even in an everyday, fully clothed context. No-one will. That’s even without getting into your frankly gross insinuation that people’s bodies are valueless and that the world is entitled to look at them for free. There’s no need for your abrasive response. All of your description of value are actually production costs. What does the consumer actually own ? consumers pay to go to the cinema or the theatre or a concert - afterward what does the consumer own? " That’s the point I made. A lot don’t see it as value for money, especially when it is freely available. The same people won’t go to the cinema if they can stream films for free. | |||
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"Probably a large proportion of it is just amateurs or consenting adults having fun or enjoying earning a living that way. But I'd also imagine a decent chunk is of people being exploited in some way. Problem is, you can't know which is which unless you know the actors personally... " Exactly this. Only way to be 100% sure is to make your own for posterior viweing pleasure | |||
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" Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood. I suppose they just don’t see any value for money. It’s not like they are buying anything with intrinsic value. I know you’re not interested in the actual answer, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this: Of course it has intrinsic value. The time and skills involved in styling, hair, and makeup for a shoot have a value. The lingerie, toys, props, photography equipment, lighting etc have a value. The hours spent editing photos and videos have a value. The admin - uploading content, dealing with enquiries and fan messages, keeping records for tax and doing a tax return, etc etc etc - has a value. You go and try and get someone to do any of those things for you without expecting payment, even in an everyday, fully clothed context. No-one will. That’s even without getting into your frankly gross insinuation that people’s bodies are valueless and that the world is entitled to look at them for free. There’s no need for your abrasive response. All of your description of value are actually production costs. What does the consumer actually own ? consumers pay to go to the cinema or the theatre or a concert - afterward what does the consumer own? That’s the point I made. A lot don’t see it as value for money, especially when it is freely available. The same people won’t go to the cinema if they can stream films for free. " i dont think we are making the same point , i wasn’t suggesting that the cinema , theatre or concerts have no intrinsic value i was showing examples that prove you don’t need to walk away owning something for it to have had value worth paying for | |||
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"Porn by its nature is exploitative, to both males and females. Male it exploits their need for visual stimulation and wallets, females it exploits to exploit males. How do you differentiate between ethical or unethical porn, what is the definition of ethical in this context. thats like saying cadbury is exploiting our wallets for selling chocolate when they know people get cravings for chocolate offering something which is optional for sale at a price is not exploitation " Exploitation is the act of selfishly taking advantage of someone or a group of people in order to profit from them or otherwise benefit oneself. So technically yes it is your taking advantage of someone's craving for chocolate for profit. | |||
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" Out of interest, why is OnlyFans hated on here? Advertising it on here is against site rules which is fair enough, but I’ve seen so many threads about it where men get incredibly angry because “I’ve never had to pay for it and I never will” or “why pay when there’s so much free porn” or “it’s shit, they only want you to pay for their photos and never meet” (meeting is explicitly against OF rules). Basically there’s a type of person that thinks they’re entitled to everything for free and doesn’t care that for some people, that is their livelihood. I suppose they just don’t see any value for money. It’s not like they are buying anything with intrinsic value. I know you’re not interested in the actual answer, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this: Of course it has intrinsic value. The time and skills involved in styling, hair, and makeup for a shoot have a value. The lingerie, toys, props, photography equipment, lighting etc have a value. The hours spent editing photos and videos have a value. The admin - uploading content, dealing with enquiries and fan messages, keeping records for tax and doing a tax return, etc etc etc - has a value. You go and try and get someone to do any of those things for you without expecting payment, even in an everyday, fully clothed context. No-one will. That’s even without getting into your frankly gross insinuation that people’s bodies are valueless and that the world is entitled to look at them for free. There’s no need for your abrasive response. All of your description of value are actually production costs. What does the consumer actually own ? consumers pay to go to the cinema or the theatre or a concert - afterward what does the consumer own? " Or subscribing to a streaming service such as Netflix - you have the benefit of the content while you’re a subscriber, but you don’t actually own anything. | |||
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"Porn by its nature is exploitative, to both males and females. Male it exploits their need for visual stimulation and wallets, females it exploits to exploit males. How do you differentiate between ethical or unethical porn, what is the definition of ethical in this context. " Her definition was “fully consensual and not in any way degrading or exploitative to those involved”. | |||
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"Porn by its nature is exploitative, to both males and females. Male it exploits their need for visual stimulation and wallets, females it exploits to exploit males. How do you differentiate between ethical or unethical porn, what is the definition of ethical in this context. Her definition was “fully consensual and not in any way degrading or exploitative to those involved”. " by her definition your fab videos would prove her wrong - its a shame you cant tell her | |||
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"Porn by its nature is exploitative, to both males and females. Male it exploits their need for visual stimulation and wallets, females it exploits to exploit males. How do you differentiate between ethical or unethical porn, what is the definition of ethical in this context. Her definition was “fully consensual and not in any way degrading or exploitative to those involved”. " There was a programme on Channel 4 or 5 a few months back about sex work and the women making a living doing it. There was a husband and wife who made porn on their own at home. They loved what they were doing, had full control of what they made, and weren’t being exploited at all. Would that fit her definition, do you think? They seemed very happy and very switched on. On a separate point - The degradation part doesn’t fit really. Degradation can be part of some BDSM porn, but it can still be done ethically. | |||
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"Porn by its nature is exploitative, to both males and females. Male it exploits their need for visual stimulation and wallets, females it exploits to exploit males. How do you differentiate between ethical or unethical porn, what is the definition of ethical in this context. Her definition was “fully consensual and not in any way degrading or exploitative to those involved”. " Are the target audience not involved? because without them there would be no industry. So are they being exploited at some level, my point was the industry by its nature is exploitative, not arguing right or wrong. At what point does it diferenciate between ethical and unethical and is that determined by an individual perspective? | |||
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"Porn by its nature is exploitative, to both males and females. Male it exploits their need for visual stimulation and wallets, females it exploits to exploit males. How do you differentiate between ethical or unethical porn, what is the definition of ethical in this context. Her definition was “fully consensual and not in any way degrading or exploitative to those involved”. Are the target audience not involved? because without them there would be no industry. So are they being exploited at some level, my point was the industry by its nature is exploitative, not arguing right or wrong. At what point does it diferenciate between ethical and unethical and is that determined by an individual perspective?" By your reasoning, everything where money changes hands is exploitative and unethical. | |||
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"It's near impossible for porn to be entirely ethical, as even if the homemade stuff was fully consensual, you'll never truly know the dynamics of that relationship. And like with lots of consumer products, there's usually someone less ethical making money out of it somewhere along the line- such as advertising revenue on the host site." As a viewer not knowing does not define ethical. We as viewers can not our lack of knowledge to a situation dictate the presence of ethical or unethical. At best you can say it is both and neither... Schrödinger's porn. But the very fact that it is entirely possible that there are very willing people (of all sexes and genders) that will be 100% willing to be on camera and participate in a form of porn very much is proof that there can be ethical porn. | |||
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"What is “ Ethical “ and who gets to decide what’s ethical and based on who’s code ? Exploitation appears in every walk of life and that is wrong but porn isn’t a question of ethics , it’s a question of choice and the freedom to choose. Is swinging ethical ?? To some not to other of course it is With the ability to upload your own porn and the mass availability of it , I would imagine there has never been less exploitation in available porn than today. We should all stop looking at things as right or wrong but whether our choices are what we want right now or not , this dispels the shame around our life choices stops us feel like we’re being judged by people who don’t have the right to do so "i guess by the pure definition of ethics “what is morally good” then it is an entirely subjective point if something is ethical or not - even the moral philosophers don’t agree however in the context i took it to be more along the lines of free from exploitation - a bit like we way we refer to fair trade items as being ethical ir sustainable fashion as being. more ethical i dont think the answer is just disregarding the concepts of right and wrong in favour of what we want right now though that sounds like a great way to have a selfish society headed down the toilet | |||
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"Couldn't you also argue that with any other form of media? Unethical films where the actors are coerced into playing roles they don't want to in order to get a jumpstart in their career. Unethical sports because of pushy parents who took their children's lifestyle into their own hands to make them the best. I think you can twist this argument into whatever narrative you see fit to show the extent of exploitation in these mediums. Yeah I did say what about the sex scenes actors are encouraged to do when they don’t want to etc ... she said that’s not remotely the same as they aren’t being painfully penetrated
okay the painfully penetrated comment makes me think there is more personal stuff underlying your friends thoughts tbh - this isn’t about exploitation or ethics - its about sex "I thought the same thing when I read the penetrated comment. OP what is her general opinions around sex? | |||
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"What is “ Ethical “ and who gets to decide what’s ethical and based on who’s code ? Exploitation appears in every walk of life and that is wrong but porn isn’t a question of ethics , it’s a question of choice and the freedom to choose. Is swinging ethical ?? To some not to other of course it is With the ability to upload your own porn and the mass availability of it , I would imagine there has never been less exploitation in available porn than today. We should all stop looking at things as right or wrong but whether our choices are what we want right now or not , this dispels the shame around our life choices stops us feel like we’re being judged by people who don’t have the right to do so
i guess by the pure definition of ethics “what is morally good” then it is an entirely subjective point if something is ethical or not - even the moral philosophers don’t agree
however in the context i took it to be more along the lines of free from exploitation - a bit like we way we refer to fair trade items as being ethical ir sustainable fashion as being. more ethical
i dont think the answer is just disregarding the concepts of right and wrong in favour of what we want right now though that sounds like a great way to have a selfish society headed down the toilet "Sorry I didn’t mean we disregard the concept of right or wrong and just indulge ourselves regardless anyway . Our choices have consequences of course but we need to move away from the labels of good and bad , right or wrong. We are obsessed with labelling everything and it doesn’t work | |||
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"Couldn't you also argue that with any other form of media? Unethical films where the actors are coerced into playing roles they don't want to in order to get a jumpstart in their career. Unethical sports because of pushy parents who took their children's lifestyle into their own hands to make them the best. I think you can twist this argument into whatever narrative you see fit to show the extent of exploitation in these mediums. Yeah I did say what about the sex scenes actors are encouraged to do when they don’t want to etc ... she said that’s not remotely the same as they aren’t being painfully penetrated
okay the painfully penetrated comment makes me think there is more personal stuff underlying your friends thoughts tbh - this isn’t about exploitation or ethics - its about sex
I thought the same thing when I read the penetrated comment.
OP what is her general opinions around sex?"I know her view of men in general isn’t great due to bad experiences in relationships. Her argument was very much “porn is always about degrading/exploiting women and you can’t convince me otherwise - and if you watch it, as a consumer, you’re part of the problem”. | |||
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"She needs to define exactly what she considers porn. Two consenting adults that enjoy having sex on camera IS porn. They both enjoy and agree to filming it, and allowing others to see it. She can argue and put across any form of argument she likes, but the above statement will always be true, therfore it is ethical in that nobody was exploited in it being created. As viewers, we may not know the full story or how 100% willing and enthused both participants truely are but that lacking of knowledge on the part of the viewer does not dictate what is ethical. Now the only possible (highly debatable) potential argument to that is somebody being forced to watch said porn. But that is a whole other debate in and of itself." See her argument was, if you can’t be fully 100% sure of explicit consent and no coercion involved, and you choose to watch it on that basis, then you’re part of the problem. The problem being, in her view, the exploitation of women. | |||
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"Porn by its nature is exploitative, to both males and females. Male it exploits their need for visual stimulation and wallets, females it exploits to exploit males. How do you differentiate between ethical or unethical porn, what is the definition of ethical in this context. Her definition was “fully consensual and not in any way degrading or exploitative to those involved”. by her definition your fab videos would prove her wrong - its a shame you cant tell her "Well yes... and this is what made the debate all the more awkward, as I was saying “some porn you can be sure of consent, though”. And she was questioning how? It was difficult to explain how I knew a person could be fully in control of their own content and who views it, without telling her I’m on here. | |||
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"Couldn't you also argue that with any other form of media? Unethical films where the actors are coerced into playing roles they don't want to in order to get a jumpstart in their career. Unethical sports because of pushy parents who took their children's lifestyle into their own hands to make them the best. I think you can twist this argument into whatever narrative you see fit to show the extent of exploitation in these mediums. Yeah I did say what about the sex scenes actors are encouraged to do when they don’t want to etc ... she said that’s not remotely the same as they aren’t being painfully penetrated
okay the painfully penetrated comment makes me think there is more personal stuff underlying your friends thoughts tbh - this isn’t about exploitation or ethics - its about sex
I thought the same thing when I read the penetrated comment.
OP what is her general opinions around sex?
I know her view of men in general isn’t great due to bad experiences in relationships. Her argument was very much “porn is always about degrading/exploiting women and you can’t convince me otherwise - and if you watch it, as a consumer, you’re part of the problem”. "i know you don’t necessarily agree with her its just raised some questions for you , but she seems to have completely forgotten entires genres of porn that don’t even involve women i would have also suggested mentioning only fans might help as an example since you cant talk about fab - people there have control over what content they out out and who sees it however i get the sense that its sex that shes thinks is degrading to women and purely for mens pleasure so an empowered woman enjoying sharing her sexual content on only fans probably wont help any | |||
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"i know you don’t necessarily agree with her its just raised some questions for you , but she seems to have completely forgotten entires genres of porn that don’t even involve women i would have also suggested mentioning only fans might help as an example since you cant talk about fab - people there have control over what content they out out and who sees it however i get the sense that its sex that shes thinks is degrading to women and purely for mens pleasure so an empowered woman enjoying sharing her sexual content on only fans probably wont help any" Yes exactly - it’s just raised some uncomfortable questions. I did ask her what about male only content, and she said how do you know that man hasn’t been coerced into uploading the video of himself, and what if it’s actually revenge porn? Etc. I didn’t actually know much about OF before this forum chat so I can raise that with her next time (although not overly in a rush to continue the debate with her tbh), and see what her views are on that. Definitely got the impression that she doesn’t view sex as something a woman can enjoy and feel empowered within... it felt very much something that is “done to” women by oppressive men. It just jarred so strongly with my own views and feelings towards sex that I found it difficult to reconcile her feelings with mine, if that makes sense. | |||
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"She needs to define exactly what she considers porn. Two consenting adults that enjoy having sex on camera IS porn. They both enjoy and agree to filming it, and allowing others to see it. She can argue and put across any form of argument she likes, but the above statement will always be true, therfore it is ethical in that nobody was exploited in it being created. As viewers, we may not know the full story or how 100% willing and enthused both participants truely are but that lacking of knowledge on the part of the viewer does not dictate what is ethical. Now the only possible (highly debatable) potential argument to that is somebody being forced to watch said porn. But that is a whole other debate in and of itself. See her argument was, if you can’t be fully 100% sure of explicit consent and no coercion involved, and you choose to watch it on that basis, then you’re part of the problem. The problem being, in her view, the exploitation of women. " It occurs to me that everyone who works for a living is exploited in a similar way. Some people use their brains for work, some use their backs, or their hands etc etc. We all use our bodies to work and get paid for it. The only difference with porn is the body parts being used for the work. Where do we get the idea that genitals are any more or less a part of the human body, and why should they be more or less valued? | |||
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"i know you don’t necessarily agree with her its just raised some questions for you , but she seems to have completely forgotten entires genres of porn that don’t even involve women i would have also suggested mentioning only fans might help as an example since you cant talk about fab - people there have control over what content they out out and who sees it however i get the sense that its sex that shes thinks is degrading to women and purely for mens pleasure so an empowered woman enjoying sharing her sexual content on only fans probably wont help any Yes exactly - it’s just raised some uncomfortable questions. I did ask her what about male only content, and she said how do you know that man hasn’t been coerced into uploading the video of himself, and what if it’s actually revenge porn? Etc. I didn’t actually know much about OF before this forum chat so I can raise that with her next time (although not overly in a rush to continue the debate with her tbh), and see what her views are on that. Definitely got the impression that she doesn’t view sex as something a woman can enjoy and feel empowered within... it felt very much something that is “done to” women by oppressive men. It just jarred so strongly with my own views and feelings towards sex that I found it difficult to reconcile her feelings with mine, if that makes sense." yes i can understand why you wouldn’t be in a hurry to bring it up again , it might be something you have to just agree to disagree on but i think the fact its even made you question and look for open debate on the kind of porn you watch is a positive and i wouldn’t let it put you off too much if you can find content that you are comfortable with | |||
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"She needs to define exactly what she considers porn. Two consenting adults that enjoy having sex on camera IS porn. They both enjoy and agree to filming it, and allowing others to see it. She can argue and put across any form of argument she likes, but the above statement will always be true, therfore it is ethical in that nobody was exploited in it being created. As viewers, we may not know the full story or how 100% willing and enthused both participants truely are but that lacking of knowledge on the part of the viewer does not dictate what is ethical. Now the only possible (highly debatable) potential argument to that is somebody being forced to watch said porn. But that is a whole other debate in and of itself. See her argument was, if you can’t be fully 100% sure of explicit consent and no coercion involved, and you choose to watch it on that basis, then you’re part of the problem. The problem being, in her view, the exploitation of women. It occurs to me that everyone who works for a living is exploited in a similar way. Some people use their brains for work, some use their backs, or their hands etc etc. We all use our bodies to work and get paid for it. The only difference with porn is the body parts being used for the work. Where do we get the idea that genitals are any more or less a part of the human body, and why should they be more or less valued?" See from her POV, porn is exclusively about men “using a woman’s body parts” for their own pleasure, rather than a woman using her own body in an empowering way, and in that sense it is contributing to a patriarchal society. I don’t necessarily agree with it - but I found myself trying to defend my argument that there surely exists some forms of porn that don’t fit this category... there must be? | |||
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"She needs to define exactly what she considers porn. Two consenting adults that enjoy having sex on camera IS porn. They both enjoy and agree to filming it, and allowing others to see it. She can argue and put across any form of argument she likes, but the above statement will always be true, therfore it is ethical in that nobody was exploited in it being created. As viewers, we may not know the full story or how 100% willing and enthused both participants truely are but that lacking of knowledge on the part of the viewer does not dictate what is ethical. Now the only possible (highly debatable) potential argument to that is somebody being forced to watch said porn. But that is a whole other debate in and of itself. See her argument was, if you can’t be fully 100% sure of explicit consent and no coercion involved, and you choose to watch it on that basis, then you’re part of the problem. The problem being, in her view, the exploitation of women. It occurs to me that everyone who works for a living is exploited in a similar way. Some people use their brains for work, some use their backs, or their hands etc etc. We all use our bodies to work and get paid for it. The only difference with porn is the body parts being used for the work. Where do we get the idea that genitals are any more or less a part of the human body, and why should they be more or less valued? See from her POV, porn is exclusively about men “using a woman’s body parts” for their own pleasure, rather than a woman using her own body in an empowering way, and in that sense it is contributing to a patriarchal society. I don’t necessarily agree with it - but I found myself trying to defend my argument that there surely exists some forms of porn that don’t fit this category... there must be? " From what I understand, women get paid considerably more than the men. Is this not empowering enough? What about transgender porn - who is exploiting whom there? | |||
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"People upload porn videos on here. I'm sure they can't all be forced against their will. Do you have to be site subscriber to view videos?" Yes | |||
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"Porn by its nature is exploitative, to both males and females. Male it exploits their need for visual stimulation and wallets, females it exploits to exploit males. How do you differentiate between ethical or unethical porn, what is the definition of ethical in this context. Her definition was “fully consensual and not in any way degrading or exploitative to those involved”. Are the target audience not involved? because without them there would be no industry. So are they being exploited at some level, my point was the industry by its nature is exploitative, not arguing right or wrong. At what point does it diferenciate between ethical and unethical and is that determined by an individual perspective? By your reasoning, everything where money changes hands is exploitative and unethical." That is not what I said Phone companies exploit peoples desire for the latest phones, Gambling exploits desire of people to get rich quick, Car companies, Cosmetic companies exploit peoples vanity, Fashion industry, the list goes on. All these use a a form of exploitation, as does the porn industry. The post was about, how is and by who determines what is ethical and what is unethical. Nothing more, where do you draw the line? How is the line determined? by who? | |||
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"Porn by its nature is exploitative, to both males and females. Male it exploits their need for visual stimulation and wallets, females it exploits to exploit males. How do you differentiate between ethical or unethical porn, what is the definition of ethical in this context. Her definition was “fully consensual and not in any way degrading or exploitative to those involved”. Are the target audience not involved? because without them there would be no industry. So are they being exploited at some level, my point was the industry by its nature is exploitative, not arguing right or wrong. At what point does it diferenciate between ethical and unethical and is that determined by an individual perspective? By your reasoning, everything where money changes hands is exploitative and unethical. That is not what I said Phone companies exploit peoples desire for the latest phones, Gambling exploits desire of people to get rich quick, Car companies, Cosmetic companies exploit peoples vanity, Fashion industry, the list goes on. All these use a a form of exploitation, as does the porn industry. The post was about, how is and by who determines what is ethical and what is unethical. Nothing more, where do you draw the line? How is the line determined? by who? " Those things aren’t really exploitation though. Exploitation would be overcharging for necessities, to the point that people struggle to afford things they really need. It’s not really exploitation to offer things that are effectively luxuries where people can decide whether they want and can afford them. OP’s question wasn’t about who decides what is ethical, it was about whether porn is always unethical, mainly based on the treatment of women in porn. Sidetracking to whether it’s ethical to make men pay for it isn’t really relevant. | |||
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" OP’s question wasn’t about who decides what is ethical, it was about whether porn is always unethical, mainly based on the treatment of women in porn. Sidetracking to whether it’s ethical to make men pay for it isn’t really relevant." it also had a horrible undertone of mens entitlement to sex or porn for free to me | |||
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" If a fully consented video is uploaded to fabswingers by a couple is deemed ethical but is then copied and posted on a porn sharing site by some unscrupulous person is it still ethical?" Yes this! Happened to me from here ! Someone put some on hampster! And while I know its risk I take putting stuff online! Doesentvmake it ethical ! X | |||
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" OP’s question wasn’t about who decides what is ethical, it was about whether porn is always unethical, mainly based on the treatment of women in porn. Sidetracking to whether it’s ethical to make men pay for it isn’t really relevant. it also had a horrible undertone of mens entitlement to sex or porn for free to me "Agreed, unfortunately there’s a lot of that here. | |||
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" OP’s question wasn’t about who decides what is ethical, it was about whether porn is always unethical, mainly based on the treatment of women in porn. Sidetracking to whether it’s ethical to make men pay for it isn’t really relevant. it also had a horrible undertone of mens entitlement to sex or porn for free to me "That is the problem of these debates (I worked In Fashion Industry for fair few years) Viewpoints on this are largely based on subjectivity, that precludes any argument truly being valid. Who's argument is more valid? You can apply statistical analysis or consensus that can include bias or other factors which may also invalidate any arguments. So the point was that porn by its nature exploitative which is what I said originally. People are exploiting sex either consensually or coercively to make money (Profit). At some point someone is making money out of others "exploiting". Exploiting is just a word with a definition, again it is how people interpret the word. I wasn't arguing it was right or wrong, what should or shouldn't be! Simply that porn can neither be ethical or unethical, the argument and based on subjectivity. What is called an unsafe argument or a fallacy. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong  | |||
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" OP’s question wasn’t about who decides what is ethical, it was about whether porn is always unethical, mainly based on the treatment of women in porn. Sidetracking to whether it’s ethical to make men pay for it isn’t really relevant. it also had a horrible undertone of mens entitlement to sex or porn for free to me
That is the problem of these debates (I worked In Fashion Industry for fair few years)
Viewpoints on this are largely based on subjectivity, that precludes any argument truly being valid. Who's argument is more valid? You can apply statistical analysis or consensus that can include bias or other factors which may also invalidate any arguments.
So the point was that porn by its nature exploitative which is what I said originally. People are exploiting sex either consensually or coercively to make money (Profit). At some point someone is making money out of others "exploiting". Exploiting is just a word with a definition, again it is how people interpret the word.
I wasn't arguing it was right or wrong, what should or shouldn't be!
Simply that porn can neither be ethical or unethical, the argument and based on subjectivity.
What is called an unsafe argument or a fallacy.
Both sides are right and both sides are wrong
"porn being ethical or unethical is subjective - sure no disagreements there because what is ethical in itself is subjective (i already mentioned not even moral philosophers can agree) however the word exploit is not subjective - its has 2 clear meanings and the context tells you which should be used 1. make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource) 2. make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand so a woman charging a man for porn is exploiting her own resources (ie using her body and sex appeal to her benefit) , but unless you think it is unfair to a man to not be entitled to these things for free (which was the undertone i got) then a man paying for porn is not exploitation | |||
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"OP, I obviously don’t know your tastes in porn, and I’m not going to pry. But if you want to investigate ethical porn for your own consumption (as I don’t think you’re going to be able to change your friend’s mind), you might like to check out Bellesa (especially Bellesa House where they ask the actors who they want to work with and pair them up); or anything by Bree Mills (she runs Adult Time). Her lesbian and trans stuff is really good." I will have a look at these, thank you. Such an interesting debate ... responses have all been really helpful. | |||
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" OP’s question wasn’t about who decides what is ethical, it was about whether porn is always unethical, mainly based on the treatment of women in porn. Sidetracking to whether it’s ethical to make men pay for it isn’t really relevant. it also had a horrible undertone of mens entitlement to sex or porn for free to me
That is the problem of these debates (I worked In Fashion Industry for fair few years)
Viewpoints on this are largely based on subjectivity, that precludes any argument truly being valid. Who's argument is more valid? You can apply statistical analysis or consensus that can include bias or other factors which may also invalidate any arguments.
So the point was that porn by its nature exploitative which is what I said originally. People are exploiting sex either consensually or coercively to make money (Profit). At some point someone is making money out of others "exploiting". Exploiting is just a word with a definition, again it is how people interpret the word.
I wasn't arguing it was right or wrong, what should or shouldn't be!
Simply that porn can neither be ethical or unethical, the argument and based on subjectivity.
What is called an unsafe argument or a fallacy.
Both sides are right and both sides are wrong
porn being ethical or unethical is subjective - sure no disagreements there because what is ethical in itself is subjective (i already mentioned not even moral philosophers can agree)
however the word exploit is not subjective - its has 2 clear meanings and the context tells you which should be used
1. make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)
2. make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand
so a woman charging a man for porn is exploiting her own resources (ie using her body and sex appeal to her benefit) , but unless you think it is unfair to a man to not be entitled to these things for free (which was the undertone i got) then a man paying for porn is not exploitation "Curious about your post. First I made a clear indication of the word exploitation and the meaning as a reference for the context in which it was being used within my posts. I purposely gave no opinion either way. Are you asking if I think it is unfair because I'm male? I also I said the worked for a fair few years in the fashion industry. I am a professional photographer and a damn good one, both myself, models, and the industry made a good living out of it - We were all exploiting a market which is the same context I used with the porn industry. There was no coercion and all consensual, on my watch shall we say. Avid opponent if there was. I do modelling photography and nude (as well as other types). Models pay me a fee to portray them in the best sexiest light to add to their portfolio, which they could go on to earn substantial income from. So who is exploiting who? Do I think it is unfair they may go on to earn £100,000s? Is exploitation gender specific? | |||
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" I do modelling photography and nude (as well as other types). Models pay me a fee to portray them in the best sexiest light to add to their portfolio, which they could go on to earn substantial income from. So who is exploiting who? Do I think it is unfair they may go on to earn £100,000s? " Ah, I see. So perhaps the problem you have with sites like OF is that they largely cut out the middle men like you, and let the models make their own content without having to involve photographers. | |||
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" OP’s question wasn’t about who decides what is ethical, it was about whether porn is always unethical, mainly based on the treatment of women in porn. Sidetracking to whether it’s ethical to make men pay for it isn’t really relevant. it also had a horrible undertone of mens entitlement to sex or porn for free to me
That is the problem of these debates (I worked In Fashion Industry for fair few years)
Viewpoints on this are largely based on subjectivity, that precludes any argument truly being valid. Who's argument is more valid? You can apply statistical analysis or consensus that can include bias or other factors which may also invalidate any arguments.
So the point was that porn by its nature exploitative which is what I said originally. People are exploiting sex either consensually or coercively to make money (Profit). At some point someone is making money out of others "exploiting". Exploiting is just a word with a definition, again it is how people interpret the word.
I wasn't arguing it was right or wrong, what should or shouldn't be!
Simply that porn can neither be ethical or unethical, the argument and based on subjectivity.
What is called an unsafe argument or a fallacy.
Both sides are right and both sides are wrong
porn being ethical or unethical is subjective - sure no disagreements there because what is ethical in itself is subjective (i already mentioned not even moral philosophers can agree)
however the word exploit is not subjective - its has 2 clear meanings and the context tells you which should be used
1. make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)
2. make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand
so a woman charging a man for porn is exploiting her own resources (ie using her body and sex appeal to her benefit) , but unless you think it is unfair to a man to not be entitled to these things for free (which was the undertone i got) then a man paying for porn is not exploitation
Curious about your post.
First I made a clear indication of the word exploitation and the meaning as a reference for the context in which it was being used within my posts.
I purposely gave no opinion either way. Are you asking if I think it is unfair because I'm male?
I also I said the worked for a fair few years in the fashion industry. I am a professional photographer and a damn good one, both myself, models, and the industry made a good living out of it - We were all exploiting a market which is the same context I used with the porn industry.
There was no coercion and all consensual, on my watch shall we say. Avid opponent if there was.
I do modelling photography and nude (as well as other types). Models pay me a fee to portray them in the best sexiest light to add to their portfolio, which they could go on to earn substantial income from. So who is exploiting who? Do I think it is unfair they may go on to earn £100,000s?
Is exploitation gender specific? "i was assuming you think it is unfair because you said men are being exploited by women when they are charged for porn but the dictionary definition of the verb to exploit includes the specification of terms deemed to be unfair or underhand - by saying the exploitation works both ways you infer there is an unfair element for clarity on my part i dont think exploitation is gender specific , the same concept would work if it was male porn being sold to women (probably more likely to be your magic mike or dream boys type shows) or if it was gay porn sold to men where all parties were the same gender the fact is if the consumer (of any gender) is not being treated unfairly or underhandedly they are not being exploited by being charged a fee - thats by the dictionary definition (well one of the 2 and the one relevant to this context) i am not sure where your definition of profit equals exploitation came from - it kind of seems like a combination of the 2 contexts mixed together - a paraphrasing of one definition about resources applied to the other definitions context of people and then like chinese whispers it ends up portraying an entirely different story i also don’t think either you or your clients are exploiting each other in the scenario you describe, however you are each exploiting your own resources (you exploit your photography skills and they exploit their body and sexual appeal) | |||
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" OP’s question wasn’t about who decides what is ethical, it was about whether porn is always unethical, mainly based on the treatment of women in porn. Sidetracking to whether it’s ethical to make men pay for it isn’t really relevant. it also had a horrible undertone of mens entitlement to sex or porn for free to me
That is the problem of these debates (I worked In Fashion Industry for fair few years)
Viewpoints on this are largely based on subjectivity, that precludes any argument truly being valid. Who's argument is more valid? You can apply statistical analysis or consensus that can include bias or other factors which may also invalidate any arguments.
So the point was that porn by its nature exploitative which is what I said originally. People are exploiting sex either consensually or coercively to make money (Profit). At some point someone is making money out of others "exploiting". Exploiting is just a word with a definition, again it is how people interpret the word.
I wasn't arguing it was right or wrong, what should or shouldn't be!
Simply that porn can neither be ethical or unethical, the argument and based on subjectivity.
What is called an unsafe argument or a fallacy.
Both sides are right and both sides are wrong
porn being ethical or unethical is subjective - sure no disagreements there because what is ethical in itself is subjective (i already mentioned not even moral philosophers can agree)
however the word exploit is not subjective - its has 2 clear meanings and the context tells you which should be used
1. make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)
2. make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand
so a woman charging a man for porn is exploiting her own resources (ie using her body and sex appeal to her benefit) , but unless you think it is unfair to a man to not be entitled to these things for free (which was the undertone i got) then a man paying for porn is not exploitation
Curious about your post.
First I made a clear indication of the word exploitation and the meaning as a reference for the context in which it was being used within my posts.
I purposely gave no opinion either way. Are you asking if I think it is unfair because I'm male?
I also I said the worked for a fair few years in the fashion industry. I am a professional photographer and a damn good one, both myself, models, and the industry made a good living out of it - We were all exploiting a market which is the same context I used with the porn industry.
There was no coercion and all consensual, on my watch shall we say. Avid opponent if there was.
I do modelling photography and nude (as well as other types). Models pay me a fee to portray them in the best sexiest light to add to their portfolio, which they could go on to earn substantial income from. So who is exploiting who? Do I think it is unfair they may go on to earn £100,000s?
Is exploitation gender specific?
i was assuming you think it is unfair because you said men are being exploited by women when they are charged for porn but the dictionary definition of the verb to exploit includes the specification of terms deemed to be unfair or underhand - by saying the exploitation works both ways you infer there is an unfair element
for clarity on my part i dont think exploitation is gender specific , the same concept would work if it was male porn being sold to women (probably more likely to be your magic mike or dream boys type shows) or if it was gay porn sold to men where all parties were the same gender
the fact is if the consumer (of any gender) is not being treated unfairly or underhandedly they are not being exploited by being charged a fee - thats by the dictionary definition (well one of the 2 and the one relevant to this context)
i am not sure where your definition of profit equals exploitation came from - it kind of seems like a combination of the 2 contexts mixed together - a paraphrasing of one definition about resources applied to the other definitions context of people and then like chinese whispers it ends up portraying an entirely different story
i also don’t think either you or your clients are exploiting each other in the scenario you describe, however you are each exploiting your own resources (you exploit your photography skills and they exploit their body and sexual appeal) "Do agree with you on some of your sentiments, but I can only base on my own experiences in in the fashion industry which has quite a lot of parallels with the porn industry, also at the time at when was involved. That is just my viewpoint which I wad trying to keep out | |||
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"OP, I obviously don’t know your tastes in porn, and I’m not going to pry. But if you want to investigate ethical porn for your own consumption (as I don’t think you’re going to be able to change your friend’s mind), you might like to check out Bellesa (especially Bellesa House where they ask the actors who they want to work with and pair them up); or anything by Bree Mills (she runs Adult Time). Her lesbian and trans stuff is really good." I subscribe to a four chambered heart. They work similarly to Bellesa house in that performers are paired with people they want to be, or are genuine partners. It's part arthouse cinema, part porn. Totally hot... Does tend to lean towards the kinky or more taboo in nature. | |||
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" I do modelling photography and nude (as well as other types). Models pay me a fee to portray them in the best sexiest light to add to their portfolio, which they could go on to earn substantial income from. So who is exploiting who? Do I think it is unfair they may go on to earn £100,000s? Ah, I see. So perhaps the problem you have with sites like OF is that they largely cut out the middle men like you, and let the models make their own content without having to involve photographers." Huh?? What has that go to do with any? Sorry what you said is complete nonsense, I have no idea what you are talking about. | |||
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" I do modelling photography and nude (as well as other types). Models pay me a fee to portray them in the best sexiest light to add to their portfolio, which they could go on to earn substantial income from. So who is exploiting who? Do I think it is unfair they may go on to earn £100,000s? Ah, I see. So perhaps the problem you have with sites like OF is that they largely cut out the middle men like you, and let the models make their own content without having to involve photographers. Huh?? What has that go to do with any? Sorry what you said is complete nonsense, I have no idea what you are talking about. "All I was doing was simply putting a hyperthetical point forward based on the context of the discussion. All you did was launch personal attack. | |||
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