FabSwingers.com forum: Does our right to freedom

By *phrodite OP Woman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe?

It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example.

The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom".

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By *luebell888Woman
over a year ago

Lanzarote

I think it boils down to how selfish you are. Do you put others before yourself or live your life to the full?. Hard choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It’s not your right though. Not during present times, that’s why laws have been passed to restrict that right.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s not your right though. Not during present times, that’s why laws have been passed to restrict that right."

This is what I was thinking. Right now we don’t have the right to do as we please.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do you have a right to do as you please though? Really?

If so is it a right given by a higher power? I would assume government or society? In which case when society faces a crisis should that right not be adapted for the needs of the whole?

Interesting thoughts OP

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By *aysOfOurLivesCouple
over a year ago

Essex

"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe?

It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example.

The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom".

It’s a great question but one based on the premise that we have a right to do as we please. This is not one of our rights though. Otherwise the “it’s how I choose to express myself” would be the only defence needed in a court of law. “I killed him as my expression of how I didn’t want him to be alive”

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By *iamondCougarWoman
over a year ago

Norfuck! / Lincolnshire

"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe?

It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example.

The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom".

Right now ‘Freedom’ is restricted for the safety of everyone therefore, yes I think it does override your individual rights. It’s a case of respect for others welfare as well as your own

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By *imon_hydeMan
over a year ago

Stockport

I'm sorry but why do you think that we have a right as an individual to do as you please. That simply isn't the case.

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By *odgerNbadgerCouple
over a year ago

Chepstow

As a Pagan (not Wiccan) I'm happy to live by parts of the Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what though wilt".Both parts of that statement are important, you don't have the right to harm others by your actions. The Satanic Creed includes "The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own" which is similar

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I dont think any of us can do as we please regardless of the pandemic.

People that don't consider others are a danger to society.

None of us a truly free - maybe only the very rich can buy themselves freedom and get away with murder literally.

But for most there are rules we have to follow.

We're controlled.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There is a little thing called consideration

There is a little thing called compassion

There is a little thing called community

I see them disappearing at an alarming rate

The way I look at it is relatively simplistic

I might be fed up

I might be struggling mentally

I might be missing my friends

I might be missing my colleagues

I might be missing routine

I might be missing the touch and the feel of another human

However, to me, those are just some of the 'costs' of keeping your loved ones, friends, colleagues and your local community safe

In the scheme of things, it's the least I can do

So, in answer to your question OP, your rights carry the same value as mine

As with all solutions, there is usually a compromise on both sides to be found

On this one, however, some people are just too polarised to consider that path

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By *erces LetiferMan
over a year ago

Somewhere off the edge of the map... 'ere there be monsters

The reality of it all is that freedom isn’t free at all, and many of our freedoms as individuals are privileges, and not rights.

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By *offiaCoolWoman
over a year ago

Kidsgrove

"It’s not your right though. Not during present times, that’s why laws have been passed to restrict that right.

This is what I was thinking. Right now we don’t have the right to do as we please. "

We don't have the right to physically or mentally hurt others. I don't see the difference personally. It is morally right to adhere to restrictions and give up some of our rights.

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Liverpool

"There is a little thing called consideration

There is a little thing called compassion

There is a little thing called community

I see them disappearing at an alarming rate

The way I look at it is relatively simplistic

I might be fed up

I might be struggling mentally

I might be missing my friends

I might be missing my colleagues

I might be missing routine

I might be missing the touch and the feel of another human

However, to me, those are just some of the 'costs' of keeping your loved ones, friends, colleagues and your local community safe

In the scheme of things, it's the least I can do

So, in answer to your question OP, your rights carry the same value as mine

As with all solutions, there is usually a compromise on both sides to be found

On this one, however, some people are just too polarised to consider that path"

I agree.

We all have the right to do as we please, we truely do. What we actually do is then challenged by consequence. These people have every right to put their "freedom" above the safety of others. The right to do so, does not exclude them from any consequences coming their way from their chosen path however. Be it law, or just a straight up fist to the face from a passer by.

Their decision to express their "freedom" by ignoring the law/rules/guidelines that may or may not keep other people safe is lack of compassion, lack of respect, lack of empathy for the situation. What is actually being asked shows the truest selfishness in people - it's not like it is some huge monumental task that will greatly change the outcome of your day.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s not your right though. Not during present times, that’s why laws have been passed to restrict that right.

This is what I was thinking. Right now we don’t have the right to do as we please.

We don't have the right to physically or mentally hurt others. I don't see the difference personally. It is morally right to adhere to restrictions and give up some of our rights."

Legally too ... communication of a disease can constitute battery under Assault and Battery law. Would be difficult to prove of course.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe?

It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example.

The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom".

Although I do agree with you, I AM going to get vaccinated NOT for myself but others

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I like to drive fast, I mean, really really fast. Driving fast on the public highway is irresponsible, and if something goes wrong, the person paying the price may not be the person causing the problem. That's why there are laws in place.

However, I can enjoy / express / release my pleasure and desire to drive really really fast on a closed circuit. There, when it goes wrong, I pay the price and perhaps she equally consenting adults might chip in a bit.

A persons right to pursue something does not absolve that person of responsibility for their actions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As far as I am concerned, I have the right to do what I want or how I please, unless the law or my own moral code says differently.

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By *atnip make me purrWoman
over a year ago

Reading

I have the right to look at the science and realise that an r rate above 1 is not a good thing so i shouldn't been mixing with other people for the sake of my health and my family.

I have the right to keep my 84 year old mother safe but not visiting her.

I am exercising free will. I could get away with visiting people. I choose not to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What about my right to want to be safe against the selfish actions of others?

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By *konCouple
over a year ago

cardiff

I’m a conundrum ! I’m a socially conscious rebel

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Our safety and well-being relies on everyone around us.

If we all pitch in, we can all have better.

Right now we're all being asked to sacrifice a bit more, but it always applies in one way or another.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What about my right to want to be safe against the selfish actions of others?"

For example

Some say I have a right to do as I please. I won't be told.

But I have a right to want to be safe, because someone's selfish actions could harm me.

Which is more important?

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"What about my right to want to be safe against the selfish actions of others?

For example

Some say I have a right to do as I please. I won't be told.

But I have a right to want to be safe, because someone's selfish actions could harm me.

Which is more important?"

It's a balance. It's always a balance and a priority judgement.

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By *r TriomanMan
over a year ago

Chippenham Malmesbury area

"I think it boils down to how selfish you are. Do you put others before yourself or live your life to the full?. Hard choice."

I don't think that these two options need be mutually exclusive.

Plus, you can live life to the full without being ignorant of others. Using the OP's Covid example, it's true the government's rules on Covid will curtail life for now but not forever.

It's terrifying to think that some of the people who couldn't sacrifice one Christmas without those that they wanted to be with are now Ill with the virus or (sadly) may have passed away; for those that have died, there will be no more living life to the full (or for some of those that they may have infected).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What about my right to want to be safe against the selfish actions of others?

For example

Some say I have a right to do as I please. I won't be told.

But I have a right to want to be safe, because someone's selfish actions could harm me.

Which is more important?

It's a balance. It's always a balance and a priority judgement. "

That's right.

And as a priority judgement, surely safety (yours or someone else's) is more important than individual freedom?

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By *ecadent_DevonMan
over a year ago

Okehampton

You do have the right, as an individual to live your life. However the act/s that you undertake in the living of your life, as an individual, cannot take away another individuals right to a life. If your acts are perceived to have that impact, your ability to conduct those acts is curtailed (by societal laws born from the decisions of democratically elected members of society) until such times as your acts no longer put another life in jeopardy.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"What about my right to want to be safe against the selfish actions of others?

For example

Some say I have a right to do as I please. I won't be told.

But I have a right to want to be safe, because someone's selfish actions could harm me.

Which is more important?

It's a balance. It's always a balance and a priority judgement.

That's right.

And as a priority judgement, surely safety (yours or someone else's) is more important than individual freedom?"

Too many variables. Depends on what one means by safety or freedom. You could define those things several ways - should we be safe from argument so stop people disagreeing? For example

Right now, obviously, most people accept curtailment of civil liberties because of the health crisis. But not everyone does.

Different assessment of risk, different assessment of priorities (safety over liberty).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What about my right to want to be safe against the selfish actions of others?

For example

Some say I have a right to do as I please. I won't be told.

But I have a right to want to be safe, because someone's selfish actions could harm me.

Which is more important?

It's a balance. It's always a balance and a priority judgement.

That's right.

And as a priority judgement, surely safety (yours or someone else's) is more important than individual freedom?

Too many variables. Depends on what one means by safety or freedom. You could define those things several ways - should we be safe from argument so stop people disagreeing? For example

Right now, obviously, most people accept curtailment of civil liberties because of the health crisis. But not everyone does.

Different assessment of risk, different assessment of priorities (safety over liberty)."

Again I agree.

I was replying with Covid in mind specifically, as I hope people realise the safety of others is more important than crying about the rules and not following them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No rights without responsibilities, one depends on the other.

I think individuals have the right to be as irresponsible as they like with their own health and safety but not with other people’s.

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By *heGateKeeperMan
over a year ago

Stratford

The subjective nature of this, and our individual risk appetites make it so that someone, ie the state, has to decide what is right and wrong.

Right or wrong, legal or illegal are simply perceptions based on the social consciousness of that time.

We just choose whether we are prepared to live with the consequences of a state imposed ‘wrong’.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"The subjective nature of this, and our individual risk appetites make it so that someone, ie the state, has to decide what is right and wrong.

Right or wrong, legal or illegal are simply perceptions based on the social consciousness of that time.

We just choose whether we are prepared to live with the consequences of a state imposed ‘wrong’."

At some stage, living in a society means we need some level of consensus. Given large societies with disparate groups of people, that will have to involve some level of imposition of standards, because it would otherwise impossible to reach consensus.

We're presumed to consent to the laws of our country, rightly or wrongly. Our means of redress are limited.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

No. That's why things like speeding are illegal. We've never really been able to do exactly what we want anyway. Not without repercussions anyway.

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe?

It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example.

The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom".

What if I reverse the question? Does the right of others as individuals to do as they please, rank over the needs of yourself, who they might harm in the process of pursuing their "freedom"?

For example, does the right of a man to do as he pleases, rank above your needs, if he decides that he wishes to force sex upon you? He would only be pursuing his own freedom, and if he harms you in the process, so what?

This makes the answer totally obvious. If we wish to live within a civilised society, none of us have freedom to do as we please. We all have to live by a code of conduct whereby we voluntarily limit our actions to avoid harming others, so that others voluntarily limit their actions to avoid harming us. A person who does not see the need for this code is known as a sociopath, they do not recognise others as having any importance, they are unable to see that any person has rights other than themselves. If all were sociopaths, there literally would be no society, only pure competition until just the most powerful individual was left standing.

Hence we have developed a system whereby everybody is allowed some level of freedom, as long as their expression of this does not deny the same freedom from others. In exchange for this, we are all obliged to take a proportionate level of responsibility for the well-being of others. Those that refuse to take this responsibility and instead just do as they please - eg. driving at 150 miles on public roads, taking the possessions of others, committing m*rder or r*pe - at some point find that society will respond by taking away their freedom.

Covid is no different. If you do not take the responsibility of maintaining the safety and health of others, then you will find that society will at some point decide that you should no longer be allowed the freedom to do harm. Which leaves all of us under increasingly stringent regulations, until either the few stop doing harm, or the many decide they will no longer stand for the actions of the few...

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe?

It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example.

The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom".

It depends on how you determine safe...is it really are your responsibility for the health of others around you especially when it's invisible?

I think not, that view is proposturious. The only way to ensure that nobody ever caught a virus or bacteria based being would be to live inside a sterile plastic bubble & even then I guarantee something would evolve as that's what they do.

Individuals are responsible for themselves only..scared stay home, if your sick you shouldn't be out regardless of covid or otherwise...at any time you could have passed that onto another & killed them

I believe covid is real but not in lockdowns & police states.

1. because flu has killed almost 100k in one year...didn't lock down for it did we nor did we call everyone a murderer for natural social species interactions.

2.death is part of life's cycles, it's a necessary part of nature, like it or not & all get personally affected at some point by it.

3.nature always takes the young, old & ill, that is it's way. Occasionally a few of the 'healthy' ones get caught too

4.people need social interactions to live & be happy as we are a social species & not designed to be alone all the time, coop communities

I can keep going & bring in personal rights too.

China had it first, done what they do best which is suppress it's citizens & the whole world has followed suit...completely forgetting China has huge human rights abuse issues & that maybe it wasn't the best idea.

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By *lixir of lifeMan
over a year ago

knob Creek

Absolutely stunned by the answers on here ..

Well done people of Fabswingers..

Not one Covid denying lunatic amongst you all ..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe?

It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example.

The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom".

What if I reverse the question? Does the right of others as individuals to do as they please, rank over the needs of yourself, who they might harm in the process of pursuing their "freedom"?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I believe covid is real but not in lockdowns & police states.

1. because flu has killed almost 100k in one year...didn't lock down for it did we nor did we call everyone a murderer for natural social species interactions.

2.death is part of life's cycles, it's a necessary part of nature, like it or not & all get personally affected at some point by it.

3.nature always takes the young, old & ill, that is it's way. Occasionally a few of the 'healthy' ones get caught too

4.people need social interactions to live & be happy as we are a social species & not designed to be alone all the time, coop communities

I can keep going & bring in personal rights too.

1) there is a flu vaccine, until now there wasn't an effective treatment.

2) death from Covid is not a natural cycle, our actions can prevent it.

3) see my answer to 2

4) we are a social species, but is it worth the risk of infecting a loved one just because you fancy a coffee or a chat with them?

Covid has changed the way we live whether you like it or not, or whether you are in denial or not.

Our rights and civil liberties have to take a back seat to ensure the safety and lives of others.

If people think their right to freedom is more important than the lives of loved ones and others, well then, quite frankly they are selfish cunts

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe?

It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example.

The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom".

You can do what you want no matter where you are in the world, or your country of origin. However if what you want is morally wrong or unlawful then be prepared to accept consequence of your actions.

And currently the measures are in place to protect the elderly and vulnerable, so all you have to question is if the horrible virus took one of your family members away from you (god forbid). Could you forgive or even forget about those that decided, their rights were above the well-being of others?

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

I stopped reading when the O.P.'s question was skewed(only 3 answers in)

from 'freedom of expression' to 'do what we want' ........

To me they are not the same.

I've believed for a long time that we have freedom of expression as long as what we say is not injurious in any to others.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OP the very simple answer is no. Only someone who is seriously deluded could think they have a free ride in life.

Yes we all know a rebel but even those types know their limitations. Thankfully most people are all mouth and no action.Easy to see numerous examples daily on whatever social media platform you use.

Our freedom is controlled but our minds and thoughts never.

I'm a positive thinker not a negative one. I believe it helps me greatly to cope with most situations in life.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There is a little thing called consideration

There is a little thing called compassion

There is a little thing called community

I see them disappearing at an alarming rate

The way I look at it is relatively simplistic

I might be fed up

I might be struggling mentally

I might be missing my friends

I might be missing my colleagues

I might be missing routine

I might be missing the touch and the feel of another human

However, to me, those are just some of the 'costs' of keeping your loved ones, friends, colleagues and your local community safe

In the scheme of things, it's the least I can do

So, in answer to your question OP, your rights carry the same value as mine

As with all solutions, there is usually a compromise on both sides to be found

On this one, however, some people are just too polarised to consider that path"

Absolutely this.

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By *phrodite OP Woman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

Thank you so much to everybody who has participated so far, and it is great to see how much thought and effort have gone into the individual answers (hope that does not sound patronising, not meant to).

I was thinking we live in such unprecedented and unpredictable times (although our parents/ grandparents who lived during WW2 probably thought the same about their situation?) that we need to find new ways of working with new and very different realities.

I have had rather personal arguments with people, and have even fallen out with a couple of long standing friends, who believe that their situation re Covid is different to everybody else's and that they are entitled (I cannot think of a better word) to break rules through visits to relatives and to go on holidays during this latest lockdown.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I used to spend ages on twitter trying to convince people that people's lives are more important than personal freedoms.

In the end I gave up.

People are stuck in their ways now, they won't change their mind unfortunately.

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By *phrodite OP Woman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

I used to spend ages on twitter trying to convince people that people's lives are more important than personal freedoms.

In the end I gave up.

People are stuck in their ways now, they won't change their mind unfortunately.

"
It feels a bit selfish to me, though - I actually cancelled our family holiday even though we still could have gone legitimately; it simply did not feel right to go when so many people are struggling with so much right now.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I used to spend ages on twitter trying to convince people that people's lives are more important than personal freedoms.

In the end I gave up.

People are stuck in their ways now, they won't change their mind unfortunately.

It feels a bit selfish to me, though - I actually cancelled our family holiday even though we still could have gone legitimately; it simply did not feel right to go when so many people are struggling with so much right now. "

Because you are a caring person.

If only everyone had this attitude, it would help us get out this mess quicker.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

The three stages thing I think for some has not been gone through, don't know who penned it etc but essentially with a potentially life affecting issue be that illness, divorce or a criminal charge against a person the there is initially disbelief then anger/frustration and finally acceptance of the situation..

Only after the latter can most people focus on the issue, contextually and deal with what it is..

This is or was beyond the majority of anything the population has faced and some still have not I think accepted it and what is needed collectively to help each other to get through it..

Some don't believe it for a myriad of other reasons and some have no close experience of it..

As a society and that has to include the systems of governance and infrastructure I think there has been of course a mixed response, some have been poor and some as always have shone..

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By *phrodite OP Woman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"The three stages thing I think for some has not been gone through, don't know who penned it etc but essentially with a potentially life affecting issue be that illness, divorce or a criminal charge against a person the there is initially disbelief then anger/frustration and finally acceptance of the situation..

Only after the latter can most people focus on the issue, contextually and deal with what it is..

This is or was beyond the majority of anything the population has faced and some still have not I think accepted it and what is needed collectively to help each other to get through it..

Some don't believe it for a myriad of other reasons and some have no close experience of it..

As a society and that has to include the systems of governance and infrastructure I think there has been of course a mixed response, some have been poor and some as always have shone..

Stages of grief and acceptance - I had not actually thought of that but I think you are spot on. Maybe that is why it takes some people longer to adapt to the new, more restricted way of being.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Only after the latter can most people focus on the issue, contextually and deal with what it is..

This is or was beyond the majority of anything the population has faced and some still have not I think accepted it and what is needed collectively to help each other to get through it..

Some don't believe it for a myriad of other reasons and some have no close experience of it..

As a society and that has to include the systems of governance and infrastructure I think there has been of course a mixed response, some have been poor and some as always have shone..

Stages of grief and acceptance - I had not actually thought of that but I think you are spot on. Maybe that is why it takes some people longer to adapt to the new, more restricted way of being."

Change is for some of us a big thing to adapt to, others less so..

Can be unsettling and feel not right for a while which won't help if that's the case in these times..

It's been very much confused by mixed messages which doesn't help but that's also down to how it was bound to..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Only after the latter can most people focus on the issue, contextually and deal with what it is..

This is or was beyond the majority of anything the population has faced and some still have not I think accepted it and what is needed collectively to help each other to get through it..

Some don't believe it for a myriad of other reasons and some have no close experience of it..

As a society and that has to include the systems of governance and infrastructure I think there has been of course a mixed response, some have been poor and some as always have shone..

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