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"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe? It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example. The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom". " It’s a great question but one based on the premise that we have a right to do as we please. This is not one of our rights though. Otherwise the “it’s how I choose to express myself” would be the only defence needed in a court of law. “I killed him as my expression of how I didn’t want him to be alive” | |||
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"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe? It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example. The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom". " Right now ‘Freedom’ is restricted for the safety of everyone therefore, yes I think it does override your individual rights. It’s a case of respect for others welfare as well as your own | |||
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"It’s not your right though. Not during present times, that’s why laws have been passed to restrict that right. This is what I was thinking. Right now we don’t have the right to do as we please. " We don't have the right to physically or mentally hurt others. I don't see the difference personally. It is morally right to adhere to restrictions and give up some of our rights. | |||
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"There is a little thing called consideration There is a little thing called compassion There is a little thing called community I see them disappearing at an alarming rate The way I look at it is relatively simplistic I might be fed up I might be struggling mentally I might be missing my friends I might be missing my colleagues I might be missing routine I might be missing the touch and the feel of another human However, to me, those are just some of the 'costs' of keeping your loved ones, friends, colleagues and your local community safe In the scheme of things, it's the least I can do So, in answer to your question OP, your rights carry the same value as mine As with all solutions, there is usually a compromise on both sides to be found On this one, however, some people are just too polarised to consider that path" I agree. We all have the right to do as we please, we truely do. What we actually do is then challenged by consequence. These people have every right to put their "freedom" above the safety of others. The right to do so, does not exclude them from any consequences coming their way from their chosen path however. Be it law, or just a straight up fist to the face from a passer by. Their decision to express their "freedom" by ignoring the law/rules/guidelines that may or may not keep other people safe is lack of compassion, lack of respect, lack of empathy for the situation. What is actually being asked shows the truest selfishness in people - it's not like it is some huge monumental task that will greatly change the outcome of your day. | |||
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"It’s not your right though. Not during present times, that’s why laws have been passed to restrict that right. This is what I was thinking. Right now we don’t have the right to do as we please. We don't have the right to physically or mentally hurt others. I don't see the difference personally. It is morally right to adhere to restrictions and give up some of our rights." Legally too ... communication of a disease can constitute battery under Assault and Battery law. Would be difficult to prove of course. | |||
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"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe? It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example. The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom". Although I do agree with you, I AM going to get vaccinated NOT for myself but others " ![]() | |||
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"What about my right to want to be safe against the selfish actions of others?" For example Some say I have a right to do as I please. I won't be told. But I have a right to want to be safe, because someone's selfish actions could harm me. Which is more important? | |||
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"What about my right to want to be safe against the selfish actions of others? For example Some say I have a right to do as I please. I won't be told. But I have a right to want to be safe, because someone's selfish actions could harm me. Which is more important?" It's a balance. It's always a balance and a priority judgement. | |||
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"I think it boils down to how selfish you are. Do you put others before yourself or live your life to the full?. Hard choice." I don't think that these two options need be mutually exclusive. Plus, you can live life to the full without being ignorant of others. Using the OP's Covid example, it's true the government's rules on Covid will curtail life for now but not forever. It's terrifying to think that some of the people who couldn't sacrifice one Christmas without those that they wanted to be with are now Ill with the virus or (sadly) may have passed away; for those that have died, there will be no more living life to the full (or for some of those that they may have infected). | |||
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"What about my right to want to be safe against the selfish actions of others? For example Some say I have a right to do as I please. I won't be told. But I have a right to want to be safe, because someone's selfish actions could harm me. Which is more important? It's a balance. It's always a balance and a priority judgement. " That's right. And as a priority judgement, surely safety (yours or someone else's) is more important than individual freedom? | |||
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"What about my right to want to be safe against the selfish actions of others? For example Some say I have a right to do as I please. I won't be told. But I have a right to want to be safe, because someone's selfish actions could harm me. Which is more important? It's a balance. It's always a balance and a priority judgement. That's right. And as a priority judgement, surely safety (yours or someone else's) is more important than individual freedom?" Too many variables. Depends on what one means by safety or freedom. You could define those things several ways - should we be safe from argument so stop people disagreeing? For example Right now, obviously, most people accept curtailment of civil liberties because of the health crisis. But not everyone does. Different assessment of risk, different assessment of priorities (safety over liberty). | |||
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"What about my right to want to be safe against the selfish actions of others? For example Some say I have a right to do as I please. I won't be told. But I have a right to want to be safe, because someone's selfish actions could harm me. Which is more important? It's a balance. It's always a balance and a priority judgement. That's right. And as a priority judgement, surely safety (yours or someone else's) is more important than individual freedom? Too many variables. Depends on what one means by safety or freedom. You could define those things several ways - should we be safe from argument so stop people disagreeing? For example Right now, obviously, most people accept curtailment of civil liberties because of the health crisis. But not everyone does. Different assessment of risk, different assessment of priorities (safety over liberty)." Again I agree. I was replying with Covid in mind specifically, as I hope people realise the safety of others is more important than crying about the rules and not following them ![]() | |||
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"The subjective nature of this, and our individual risk appetites make it so that someone, ie the state, has to decide what is right and wrong. Right or wrong, legal or illegal are simply perceptions based on the social consciousness of that time. We just choose whether we are prepared to live with the consequences of a state imposed ‘wrong’." At some stage, living in a society means we need some level of consensus. Given large societies with disparate groups of people, that will have to involve some level of imposition of standards, because it would otherwise impossible to reach consensus. We're presumed to consent to the laws of our country, rightly or wrongly. Our means of redress are limited. | |||
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"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe? It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example. The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom". " What if I reverse the question? Does the right of others as individuals to do as they please, rank over the needs of yourself, who they might harm in the process of pursuing their "freedom"? For example, does the right of a man to do as he pleases, rank above your needs, if he decides that he wishes to force sex upon you? He would only be pursuing his own freedom, and if he harms you in the process, so what? This makes the answer totally obvious. If we wish to live within a civilised society, none of us have freedom to do as we please. We all have to live by a code of conduct whereby we voluntarily limit our actions to avoid harming others, so that others voluntarily limit their actions to avoid harming us. A person who does not see the need for this code is known as a sociopath, they do not recognise others as having any importance, they are unable to see that any person has rights other than themselves. If all were sociopaths, there literally would be no society, only pure competition until just the most powerful individual was left standing. Hence we have developed a system whereby everybody is allowed some level of freedom, as long as their expression of this does not deny the same freedom from others. In exchange for this, we are all obliged to take a proportionate level of responsibility for the well-being of others. Those that refuse to take this responsibility and instead just do as they please - eg. driving at 150 miles on public roads, taking the possessions of others, committing m*rder or r*pe - at some point find that society will respond by taking away their freedom. Covid is no different. If you do not take the responsibility of maintaining the safety and health of others, then you will find that society will at some point decide that you should no longer be allowed the freedom to do harm. Which leaves all of us under increasingly stringent regulations, until either the few stop doing harm, or the many decide they will no longer stand for the actions of the few... | |||
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"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe? It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example. The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom". " It depends on how you determine safe...is it really are your responsibility for the health of others around you especially when it's invisible? I think not, that view is proposturious. The only way to ensure that nobody ever caught a virus or bacteria based being would be to live inside a sterile plastic bubble & even then I guarantee something would evolve as that's what they do. Individuals are responsible for themselves only..scared stay home, if your sick you shouldn't be out regardless of covid or otherwise...at any time you could have passed that onto another & killed them I believe covid is real but not in lockdowns & police states. 1. because flu has killed almost 100k in one year...didn't lock down for it did we nor did we call everyone a murderer for natural social species interactions. 2.death is part of life's cycles, it's a necessary part of nature, like it or not & all get personally affected at some point by it. 3.nature always takes the young, old & ill, that is it's way. Occasionally a few of the 'healthy' ones get caught too 4.people need social interactions to live & be happy as we are a social species & not designed to be alone all the time, coop communities I can keep going & bring in personal rights too. China had it first, done what they do best which is suppress it's citizens & the whole world has followed suit...completely forgetting China has huge human rights abuse issues & that maybe it wasn't the best idea. | |||
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"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe? It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example. The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom". What if I reverse the question? Does the right of others as individuals to do as they please, rank over the needs of yourself, who they might harm in the process of pursuing their "freedom"? For example, does the right of a man to do as he pleases, rank above your needs, if he decides that he wishes to force sex upon you? He would only be pursuing his own freedom, and if he harms you in the process, so what? This makes the answer totally obvious. If we wish to live within a civilised society, none of us have freedom to do as we please. We all have to live by a code of conduct whereby we voluntarily limit our actions to avoid harming others, so that others voluntarily limit their actions to avoid harming us. A person who does not see the need for this code is known as a sociopath, they do not recognise others as having any importance, they are unable to see that any person has rights other than themselves. If all were sociopaths, there literally would be no society, only pure competition until just the most powerful individual was left standing. Hence we have developed a system whereby everybody is allowed some level of freedom, as long as their expression of this does not deny the same freedom from others. In exchange for this, we are all obliged to take a proportionate level of responsibility for the well-being of others. Those that refuse to take this responsibility and instead just do as they please - eg. driving at 150 miles on public roads, taking the possessions of others, committing m*rder or r*pe - at some point find that society will respond by taking away their freedom. Covid is no different. If you do not take the responsibility of maintaining the safety and health of others, then you will find that society will at some point decide that you should no longer be allowed the freedom to do harm. Which leaves all of us under increasingly stringent regulations, until either the few stop doing harm, or the many decide they will no longer stand for the actions of the few... " ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | |||
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" I believe covid is real but not in lockdowns & police states. 1. because flu has killed almost 100k in one year...didn't lock down for it did we nor did we call everyone a murderer for natural social species interactions. 2.death is part of life's cycles, it's a necessary part of nature, like it or not & all get personally affected at some point by it. 3.nature always takes the young, old & ill, that is it's way. Occasionally a few of the 'healthy' ones get caught too 4.people need social interactions to live & be happy as we are a social species & not designed to be alone all the time, coop communities I can keep going & bring in personal rights too. China had it first, done what they do best which is suppress it's citizens & the whole world has followed suit...completely forgetting China has huge human rights abuse issues & that maybe it wasn't the best idea. " 1) there is a flu vaccine, until now there wasn't an effective treatment. 2) death from Covid is not a natural cycle, our actions can prevent it. 3) see my answer to 2 4) we are a social species, but is it worth the risk of infecting a loved one just because you fancy a coffee or a chat with them? Covid has changed the way we live whether you like it or not, or whether you are in denial or not. Our rights and civil liberties have to take a back seat to ensure the safety and lives of others. If people think their right to freedom is more important than the lives of loved ones and others, well then, quite frankly they are selfish cunts ![]() | |||
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"of our individual expression really override the right of others' to be safe? It is a question borne out of the current lockdown situation but that is just an example. The question is whether my right as an individual to do as I please, rank over the need of others, whom I might harm in the process of pursuing my "freedom". " You can do what you want no matter where you are in the world, or your country of origin. However if what you want is morally wrong or unlawful then be prepared to accept consequence of your actions. ![]() | |||
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"There is a little thing called consideration There is a little thing called compassion There is a little thing called community I see them disappearing at an alarming rate The way I look at it is relatively simplistic I might be fed up I might be struggling mentally I might be missing my friends I might be missing my colleagues I might be missing routine I might be missing the touch and the feel of another human However, to me, those are just some of the 'costs' of keeping your loved ones, friends, colleagues and your local community safe In the scheme of things, it's the least I can do So, in answer to your question OP, your rights carry the same value as mine As with all solutions, there is usually a compromise on both sides to be found On this one, however, some people are just too polarised to consider that path" Absolutely this. | |||
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" I have had rather personal arguments with people, and have even fallen out with a couple of long standing friends, who believe that their situation re Covid is different to everybody else's and that they are entitled (I cannot think of a better word) to break rules through visits to relatives and to go on holidays during this latest lockdown. " I used to spend ages on twitter trying to convince people that people's lives are more important than personal freedoms. In the end I gave up. People are stuck in their ways now, they won't change their mind unfortunately. ![]() | |||
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" I have had rather personal arguments with people, and have even fallen out with a couple of long standing friends, who believe that their situation re Covid is different to everybody else's and that they are entitled (I cannot think of a better word) to break rules through visits to relatives and to go on holidays during this latest lockdown. I used to spend ages on twitter trying to convince people that people's lives are more important than personal freedoms. In the end I gave up. People are stuck in their ways now, they won't change their mind unfortunately. ![]() It feels a bit selfish to me, though - I actually cancelled our family holiday even though we still could have gone legitimately; it simply did not feel right to go when so many people are struggling with so much right now. | |||
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" I have had rather personal arguments with people, and have even fallen out with a couple of long standing friends, who believe that their situation re Covid is different to everybody else's and that they are entitled (I cannot think of a better word) to break rules through visits to relatives and to go on holidays during this latest lockdown. I used to spend ages on twitter trying to convince people that people's lives are more important than personal freedoms. In the end I gave up. People are stuck in their ways now, they won't change their mind unfortunately. ![]() Because you are a caring person. If only everyone had this attitude, it would help us get out this mess quicker. | |||
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"The three stages thing I think for some has not been gone through, don't know who penned it etc but essentially with a potentially life affecting issue be that illness, divorce or a criminal charge against a person the there is initially disbelief then anger/frustration and finally acceptance of the situation.. Only after the latter can most people focus on the issue, contextually and deal with what it is.. This is or was beyond the majority of anything the population has faced and some still have not I think accepted it and what is needed collectively to help each other to get through it.. Some don't believe it for a myriad of other reasons and some have no close experience of it.. As a society and that has to include the systems of governance and infrastructure I think there has been of course a mixed response, some have been poor and some as always have shone.. " ![]() ![]() | |||
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"The three stages thing I think for some has not been gone through, don't know who penned it etc but essentially with a potentially life affecting issue be that illness, divorce or a criminal charge against a person the there is initially disbelief then anger/frustration and finally acceptance of the situation.. Only after the latter can most people focus on the issue, contextually and deal with what it is.. This is or was beyond the majority of anything the population has faced and some still have not I think accepted it and what is needed collectively to help each other to get through it.. Some don't believe it for a myriad of other reasons and some have no close experience of it.. As a society and that has to include the systems of governance and infrastructure I think there has been of course a mixed response, some have been poor and some as always have shone.. ![]() ![]() Change is for some of us a big thing to adapt to, others less so.. Can be unsettling and feel not right for a while which won't help if that's the case in these times.. It's been very much confused by mixed messages which doesn't help but that's also down to how it was bound to.. | |||
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"The three stages thing I think for some has not been gone through, don't know who penned it etc but essentially with a potentially life affecting issue be that illness, divorce or a criminal charge against a person the there is initially disbelief then anger/frustration and finally acceptance of the situation.. Only after the latter can most people focus on the issue, contextually and deal with what it is.. This is or was beyond the majority of anything the population has faced and some still have not I think accepted it and what is needed collectively to help each other to get through it.. Some don't believe it for a myriad of other reasons and some have no close experience of it.. As a society and that has to include the systems of governance and infrastructure I think there has been of course a mixed response, some have been poor and some as always have shone.. " ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | |||
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