FabSwingers.com forum: MGTOW this ones new to me.

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Heard this yesterday and I’ve had a quick google search of it but don’t really understand it.

In my book I’m going to have a chapter dedicated to dating terminology and the book is primarily aimed at females.

Is it worth sticking a few paragraphs in about this MGTOW thing cos I’d never heard of it before?

How would you guys describe it in laymen’s terms?

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

Disaffected men who blame women for their own issues of personal self-esteem.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

“Men Going Their Own Way believes, above all else, that the system is rigged against males, with governments and courts of law prioritising the rights of women. So, some out of protest for the new world and some out of necessity, have chosen to ‘go their own way’ – that is, to leave traditional concepts of marriage and female partnership in favour of a life prioritising the individual.”

That’s taken off an online article.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

Yes - our definition was more succinct.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

I research internet culture for a sideline I have. Some of the murkier aspects fascinate me.

There are some groups and sites that are well worth a look at if you need research.

The Chans are good material.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Oh god they have a diagram labelled Gender benefits of being in a relationship.

Solely him, nothing

Both, sex, emotional support, status

Solely her, free dinners, his money, doors held open, male servants, attention, treated like a princess, never wrong, protection and free gifts.

What the actual fuck

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

They're like the kind of guy who shoots up his high school because a few women rejected him.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Oh god they have a diagram labelled Gender benefits of being in a relationship.

Solely him, nothing

Both, sex, emotional support, status

Solely her, free dinners, his money, doors held open, male servants, attention, treated like a princess, never wrong, protection and free gifts.

What the actual fuck

You missed arsehole pics off the list

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By *ent in BlackMan
over a year ago

Silsden

"Heard this yesterday and I’ve had a quick google search of it but don’t really understand it.

In my book I’m going to have a chapter dedicated to dating terminology and the book is primarily aimed at females.

Is it worth sticking a few paragraphs in about this MGTOW thing cos I’d never heard of it before?

How would you guys describe it in laymen’s terms?"

As group of self entitled people not willing to look at the wider picture.

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By *oungalpha20Man
over a year ago

North West /Cumbria

"Oh god they have a diagram labelled Gender benefits of being in a relationship.

Solely him, nothing

Both, sex, emotional support, status

Solely her, free dinners, his money, doors held open, male servants, attention, treated like a princess, never wrong, protection and free gifts.

What the actual fuck

This has to be a joke?

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

"Oh god they have a diagram labelled Gender benefits of being in a relationship.

Solely him, nothing

Both, sex, emotional support, status

Solely her, free dinners, his money, doors held open, male servants, attention, treated like a princess, never wrong, protection and free gifts.

What the actual fuck

A bunch of them tried to buy their own large area of land in order to create a society in their own image. Unsurprisingly it didn’t take off.

Some although mostly the Incel types venerate Elliot Rodgers. His parting manifesto is on YouTube.

Crazy rabbit hole to go down.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If your book is primarily about dating I don't think you'd need to include MGTOW as I don't think they'd be on the dating scene.

Seems to be they want to live seperately from women. Plus you'd be veering into politics territory as they are linked to the alt-right and white supremacism.

They are linked to the 'manosphere' which is a term used to define groups who push for men's rights (also linked to alt-right/white supremacism). Within this are 'Pick-up Artists' (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_artist) who are probably more relevant to dating.

Don't get stuck in rabbit hole of the 'manosphere'

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By *inaryGuyMan
over a year ago

Near the River

"Oh god they have a diagram labelled Gender benefits of being in a relationship.

Solely him, nothing

Both, sex, emotional support, status

Solely her, free dinners, his money, doors held open, male servants, attention, treated like a princess, never wrong, protection and free gifts.

What the actual fuck

Potentially dangerous development as many tend to be very right wing, maybe religious, believes in counter culture, misogynistic, trump lovers

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

MGTOW are male supremacists. They're a hate group.

I suppose it would be interesting to have a chapter on incels, MGTOW, etc - if only to warn women to run a mile

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Yeah I’m thinking it could go amongst the section about red flags and things to avoid.

Just do a quick sum up of what they’re about and believe and some defining characteristics and I’ll say personally if I encountered one I’d give them a sharp swerve.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If your book is primarily about dating I don't think you'd need to include MGTOW as I don't think they'd be on the dating scene.

Seems to be they want to live seperately from women. "

If only! They seek to pick up women and use "tactics" (which we would consider abuse) to make them subordinate. Showering them with praise early on, then seeking to break down their self-esteem so they submit. A lot of it has been developed in the PUA community.

If an unsuspecting, vulnerable woman is lucky then they'll be picked up and used in the short term - but many want partners, just on their terms.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Have you decided on a title for the book?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If your book is primarily about dating I don't think you'd need to include MGTOW as I don't think they'd be on the dating scene.

Seems to be they want to live seperately from women.

If an unsuspecting, vulnerable woman is lucky then they'll be picked up and used in the short term - but many want partners, just on their terms."

I think my most recent experience that’s fucking bothered me greatly, think that guy had some ‘issues’.

Like he was a normal guy from real life, I knew him to say hello to but that was it till he came to do work at my house, this was back in June. After that he was messaging me relentlessly, was getting flirty, was messaging each other briefly through the day but when he’d finished work he would message from like 5pm constant till 2 or 3 next morning. I was responding of course but he love bombed me for like 4 weeks, even though he said at the beginning he wasn’t looking for a relationship cos relationships cost money and he was saving for property and vowed to remain single till he’s got it. He would say all kinds of bull shit that I fell for. He was saying he was falling for me, would say he was watching a film and it made him miss having a girlfriend and being in love, would say that he can’t get enough of me, said he thinks he’s falling in love. All bull shit cos when I agreed to let him come over one evening I shaggged him, he stayed the night and then 2 days later blocked me. Said he had no other choice other than block cos he didn’t want me messaging him 24/7. Me messaging him, think he forgot that he would send me sometimes up to 31 unanswered messages I counted one time cos I’d been for a long walk and left my phone in the car. But no blamed me!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If an unsuspecting, vulnerable woman is lucky then they'll be picked up and used in the short term - but many want partners, just on their terms.

I think my most recent experience that’s fucking bothered me greatly, think that guy had some ‘issues’.

All bull shit cos when I agreed to let him come over one evening I shaggged him, he stayed the night and then 2 days later blocked me. Said he had no other choice other than block cos he didn’t want me messaging him 24/7 ... But no blamed me! "

Made me smile reading that (not because of your experience but something else).

Look into Pick-Up Artists (PUA) and 'The Game'. There's a book about PUAs - 'The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists'. Then enter the manosphere from that angle as in 'PUAs are a part of the manosphere which also includes these related groups ...'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I got all excited when I thought this thread was going to be about aircraft.

I saw MGTOW , an immediately “ Max Gross Take Off Weight” came time mind.

Oh well

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I’m gonna have to put something on about PUA’s as well then. God this is a lot of research.

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

If you are including a chapter on MGTOW would you also need to do one on women and feminists who are opposed to marriage

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If you are including a chapter on MGTOW would you also need to do one on women and feminists who are opposed to marriage"

I’d have to wouldn’t I in the interest of equality.

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By *aysOfOurLivesCouple
over a year ago

Essex

"They're like the kind of guy who shoots up his high school because a few women rejected him. "

Yup! Like the old song we all sang at pre-school...

No body likes me,

Everybody hates me,

Think I’ll go in the garden,

and shoot at random people going about their day dealing with their own personal shit like sane people.

...if I remembered it correctly

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"They're like the kind of guy who shoots up his high school because a few women rejected him. "

They’re more the incel type guys. All bonkers if you ask me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Elitist propaganda bullshit, designed to keep "their" status quo of a patriarchal dominated society?

Fuzz

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By *partharmonyCouple
over a year ago

Ruislip

"Oh god they have a diagram labelled Gender benefits of being in a relationship.

Solely him, nothing

Both, sex, emotional support, status

Solely her, free dinners, his money, doors held open, male servants, attention, treated like a princess, never wrong, protection and free gifts.

What the actual fuck

To be fair, that is a lot like the marriage I left. Things are much better now though.

I think the MGTOW movement takes exceptions like that and makes out it's the norm, and they ignore the fact that a lot of women end up in shitty relationships too.

I do understand their argument and there are a few areas in which I agree with points they make but I think they are overstating the problems men face compared with women.

Incidentally, in your research I imagine you have come across the incel movement. A lot of people don't realise that was started by a woman and only later commandeered by men.

Luke

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Maximum Gross Take Off Weight?

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By *isfits behaving badlyCouple
over a year ago

Coventry

MGTOW is the point where male self support and awareness (which I think is important) turns into bitter, vile and misogynistic ideology. Not a defensive but sometimes injustices (real or perceived) in the world can lead to vile extreme ideology. Our society may disadvantage women but it also hurts men too (without going into a game of privilege top trumps) and this can manifest itself in negative ways.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

"They're like the kind of guy who shoots up his high school because a few women rejected him.

They’re more the incel type guys. All bonkers if you ask me. "

That guy was an incel.

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By *ugga MannMan
over a year ago

Heathrow

I am dismayed that people like these manage to get any attention. It’s a sad reflection on the realities of modern life ...!

I’m with Bill and Ted.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I’m gonna have to put something on about PUA’s as well then. God this is a lot of research. "

Probably be simpler to do a chapter on the 'Manosphere' (and the 'mens liberation movement' has been around since the '70s/'80s) and talk about the ideas/jargon which are common amongst the different subgroups within this grouping.

Bit like if chatting to a man or reading a man's profile what particular phrases/words/jargon to look out for. Then do a paragraph on each subgrouping in a 'know you're enemy' type thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manosphere

The problem you could face with starting to look at different internet subgroups is you may end up getting swamped as more subgroups come to light. As a whole they would come under gender/identity studies/politics (which would be a whole book in it's own right).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If you are including a chapter on MGTOW would you also need to do one on women and feminists who are opposed to marriage

I’d have to wouldn’t I in the interest of equality. "

Not really.

There's nothing wrong with being opposed to marriage. But there isn't an equivalent movement of women that seek to subjugate men.

Feminists seek equality, not supremacy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Maximum Gross Take Off Weight?"

Glad I wasn’t the only one who thought this

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By *isfits behaving badlyCouple
over a year ago

Coventry

"If you are including a chapter on MGTOW would you also need to do one on women and feminists who are opposed to marriage

I’d have to wouldn’t I in the interest of equality.

Not really.

There's nothing wrong with being opposed to marriage. But there isn't an equivalent movement of women that seek to subjugate men.

Feminists seek equality, not supremacy."

Not to forget there are groups at the other extreme end though who claim to be feminists (it seems to mean different things to different people). Such as the womens group who advocate even if your your a straight woman you teach yourself to be lesbian and only date women. They see men as the enemy and women who date men as traitors to women. I think the point op was trying to make is that such horridness is not exclusively from males.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Not to forget there are groups at the other extreme end though who claim to be feminists (it seems to mean different things to different people). Such as the womens group who advocate even if your your a straight woman you teach yourself to be lesbian and only date women. They see men as the enemy and women who date men as traitors to women. I think the point op was trying to make is that such horridness is not exclusively from males."

Yes, the point I'm making is that those aren't feminists

and are honestly mostly strawmen attacks on feminism by people that hate women.

Conversely, there are active MGTOWs on this forum. They're not just spoken about as some spooky "other" people have kinda heard of.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

So what are the key things then. I don’t want the book to be all about these things, people reading it can then go on and do their own research on each point. I just wanna make women aware of these characters because up until yesterday I’d never heard of this men going their own way thing.

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By *isfits behaving badlyCouple
over a year ago

Coventry

Yes, the point I'm making is that those aren't feminists

and are honestly mostly strawmen attacks on feminism by people that hate women.

Conversely, there are active MGTOWs on this forum. They're not just spoken about as some spooky "other" people have kinda heard of."

I think we both agree they're not feminists (even if they claim to be). Naturally a lot of people who use such examples do to attack feminism. But that doesn't mean such ideologies don't exist. And the existence of such groups are unfortunate because the do provide a real body to point fingers at. Obviously most well ballanced people can see how toxic such groups are, whatever side they claim to be on. Likewise there are those who do hate men and use MGTOW as an example to say this is men, this is what men are like. Hate in terms of gender is not exclusively a male problem and to say so is not an attack on women per se (although naturally it will be pointed out by those who don't like women or feminism to score points). But there is a danger when we say its OK to talk about the hate of one group but not ok to talk about the hate of a group on the other side. It both feeds a narrative of sensorship and allows certain types of hate/unpleasantness to go unchallenged which is also counterproductive to a fair society. Clearly there is also a need to understand proportionality in terms of the different groups.

As to the existence of MGTOW on here, they do. Naturally the idea of the possibility of NSA sex is going to appeal to MGTOW ideology (well not those that are so hateful they've gone celibate). So yes I suppose their presence on here is worth highlighting so people who want to can be vigilant to their disrespect and pump n dump mentally (of course rhis is not exclusively a MGTOW mentally).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They're like the kind of guy who shoots up his high school because a few women rejected him. "

Absolutely this.

I have always thought the same thing.

Elliot Rodger in the US murdered people because of sexual and social rejection.

Sickening.

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By *amie HantsWoman
over a year ago

Atlantis

Kind of sounds like incels that don’t want to admit it’s involuntary

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

MGTOW types also believe women are “useless” after 30, or is it 25? Can’t remember.

But I don’t know why I wasted my time reading something about it before where it was said women are useless and used foods after a certain age and that they should be replaced by a younger model every so many years.

Some crazy people about.

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By *addyBabygirl2020Couple
over a year ago

norwich

There is derogatory term for these types of guys "Neckbeards" refering to the unkempt look many of these men have.

I have followed a few instagram pages and redits which show screen shots of messsges these guys send girls and post they make online.

They are so abusive, self pitying, entitled and dis respectful that they would be funny if they were not real.

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By *unmatt888Man
over a year ago

Duns

"I got all excited when I thought this thread was going to be about aircraft.

I saw MGTOW , an immediately “ Max Gross Take Off Weight” came time mind.

Oh well

Now that's a much better thread!

Always happy to talk V1, Vne, VHF, VOR, VSTOL, V-bombers...

And other aviation terms that don't start with V.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

so this isnt a male bashing thread again then?

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By *ecadent_DevonMan
over a year ago

Okehampton

"If you are including a chapter on MGTOW would you also need to do one on women and feminists who are opposed to marriage"

How about the extreme feminists that state that the would terminate a baby if it was male?

You see the thing is that there are extremes in every sub group of society and highlighting their twisted vision of reality only gives voice to otherwise mumbling park bench loons

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"so this isnt a male bashing thread again then?"

If you feel that it's male-bashing to call out male supremacists on their bullshit, then yes.

If you are comfortable with the idea that men and women should be equal, then no.

The answer is inside you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How about the extreme feminists that state that the would terminate a baby if it was male?"

Could you point to a notable, organised movement of women that do this?

This is a false equivalence.

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By *ecadent_DevonMan
over a year ago

Okehampton

"How about the extreme feminists that state that the would terminate a baby if it was male?

Could you point to a notable, organised movement of women that do this?

This is a false equivalence."

How is it false equivalence? The original blog post that caused outrage in 2015 was most likely a fake. What wasn’t fake were the hundreds of “supportive” messages from “feminists”. To deny that only males hold extreme views and that misogyny is a thing but misandry isn’t. Is a little naive.......

As I state. Given voice to any extremist regardless of their physical characteristics is flawed, it only serves to propagate mistrust and extreme reaction

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How is it false equivalence? The original blog post that caused outrage in 2015 was most likely a fake. What wasn’t fake were the hundreds of “supportive” messages from “feminists”. To deny that only males hold extreme views and that misogyny is a thing but misandry isn’t. Is a little naive.......

As I state. Given voice to any extremist regardless of their physical characteristics is flawed, it only serves to propagate mistrust and extreme reaction "

It's a false equivalence because you're referring to a blog post with some "supportive messages", and comparing it to a substantial ideological movement.

This isn't men vs women. It's equality vs oppression. You shouldn't struggle with what side to be on here.

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By *ecadent_DevonMan
over a year ago

Okehampton

As I state. Given voice to any extremist regardless of their physical characteristics is flawed, it only serves to propagate mistrust and extreme reaction

It's a false equivalence because you're referring to a blog post with some "supportive messages", and comparing it to a substantial ideological movement.

This isn't men vs women. It's equality vs oppression. You shouldn't struggle with what side to be on here."

How is a man saying “I don’t need a woman in my life” being oppressive? Men Going their Own Way like any other social groups (LGBT+ Feminists, Football Supporters, Union Members, religions etc.) have extremists.

The vast majority of Men Going their Own Way are not extremists, they are just quietly getting on with life, not oppressing anyone, not forcing their opinions, just you know living life the way they want to, they have made a proactive choice

Funny isn’t it, when anyone else does that it’s “powerful” “fierce” “empowering” but if a guy does it, it is “misogynistic” or “oppressive”

If we only look through one lens, the perspective is always going to be skewed.

Peace

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As I state. Given voice to any extremist regardless of their physical characteristics is flawed, it only serves to propagate mistrust and extreme reaction

It's a false equivalence because you're referring to a blog post with some "supportive messages", and comparing it to a substantial ideological movement.

This isn't men vs women. It's equality vs oppression. You shouldn't struggle with what side to be on here.

Funny isn’t it, when anyone else does that it’s “powerful” “fierce” “empowering” but if a guy does it, it is “misogynistic” or “oppressive”

If we only look through one lens, the perspective is always going to be skewed.

Peace

This

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

This is nonsense I'm afraid. The vast majority of MGOTOW are not peaceful dudes just getting on with things, they're fully dedicated to being bitter and angry and ranting about how awful women are. They're misogynists.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How is a man saying “I don’t need a woman in my life” being oppressive? Men Going their Own Way like any other social groups (LGBT+ Feminists, Football Supporters, Union Members, religions etc.) have extremists.

This isn't what MGTOW is. "Men Going Their Own Way" is like "Scientology" in that it's a name that makes you think they're all reasonable.

It's a specific ideology which believes that women's equality has corrupted society, and encourages hatred of women for perceived transgressions against men.

It's a hate group, essentially.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

As I state. Given voice to any extremist regardless of their physical characteristics is flawed, it only serves to propagate mistrust and extreme reaction

It's a false equivalence because you're referring to a blog post with some "supportive messages", and comparing it to a substantial ideological movement.

This isn't men vs women. It's equality vs oppression. You shouldn't struggle with what side to be on here.

Funny isn’t it, when anyone else does that it’s “powerful” “fierce” “empowering” but if a guy does it, it is “misogynistic” or “oppressive”

If we only look through one lens, the perspective is always going to be skewed.

Peace

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists?

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By *ecadent_DevonMan
over a year ago

Okehampton

As I state. Given voice to any extremist regardless of their physical characteristics is flawed, it only serves to propagate mistrust and extreme reaction

It's a false equivalence because you're referring to a blog post with some "supportive messages", and comparing it to a substantial ideological movement.

This isn't men vs women. It's equality vs oppression. You shouldn't struggle with what side to be on here.

Funny isn’t it, when anyone else does that it’s “powerful” “fierce” “empowering” but if a guy does it, it is “misogynistic” or “oppressive”

If we only look through one lens, the perspective is always going to be skewed.

Peace

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists? "

I would argue that most Men Going Their Own Way do not even known a website exists, they have just decided to go their own way. Do feminists just have the one website that speaks for ALL feminists? Do Christians?

Whilst we can categorically state that any “movement” has its roots or genesis in one or two specific people, as a vision is shared it is mutated and changes to suit the person that utilises its thinking. Changing it to fit their view of the world. So whilst there may be many bitter, angry, sad men attacking women on MGTOW sites there are equally as many sad, bitter and angry people on other sites attacking other groups. We tend to think of these people as “extremists” and rightly so. Breeding hate is self destructive and regressive.

But to label all men that have taken it upon themselves to live outside of societal norms as extremists is a little bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists? "

Well, there's a 'quotes' section on their website that has such delights as

'Being MGTOW means never having to say “HAPPY VALENTINES DAY" to some useless cunt that stopped being “interesting” 5 years ago.'

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By *ecadent_DevonMan
over a year ago

Okehampton

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists?

Well, there's a 'quotes' section on their website that has such delights as

'Being MGTOW means never having to say “HAPPY VALENTINES DAY" to some useless cunt that stopped being “interesting” 5 years ago.'

To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo." -- Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists?

Well, there's a 'quotes' section on their website that has such delights as

'Being MGTOW means never having to say “HAPPY VALENTINES DAY" to some useless cunt that stopped being “interesting” 5 years ago.'

Love abit of cherry picking

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists?

Well, there's a 'quotes' section on their website that has such delights as

'Being MGTOW means never having to say “HAPPY VALENTINES DAY" to some useless cunt that stopped being “interesting” 5 years ago.'

To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo." -- Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto

That some people exist who hate/hated men doesn't take away from the fact that men who associate with the MGTOW label are almost always obsessive, angry misogynists.

It's OK for some men to be bad, you know. It doesn't reflect personally on you.

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By *ecadent_DevonMan
over a year ago

Okehampton

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists?

Well, there's a 'quotes' section on their website that has such delights as

'Being MGTOW means never having to say “HAPPY VALENTINES DAY" to some useless cunt that stopped being “interesting” 5 years ago.'

To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo." -- Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto

That some people exist who hate/hated men doesn't take away from the fact that men who associate with the MGTOW label are almost always obsessive, angry misogynists.

It's OK for some men to be bad, you know. It doesn't reflect personally on you.

Thank you

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists?

Well, there's a 'quotes' section on their website that has such delights as

'Being MGTOW means never having to say “HAPPY VALENTINES DAY" to some useless cunt that stopped being “interesting” 5 years ago.'

Love abit of cherry picking "

Funnily enough I wasn't going to spam the forum with the many, many examples of misogyny you can find on MGTOW websites.

People can Google and check them out for themselves.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Kind of sounds like incels that don’t want to admit it’s involuntary

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

As I state. Given voice to any extremist regardless of their physical characteristics is flawed, it only serves to propagate mistrust and extreme reaction

It's a false equivalence because you're referring to a blog post with some "supportive messages", and comparing it to a substantial ideological movement.

This isn't men vs women. It's equality vs oppression. You shouldn't struggle with what side to be on here.

Funny isn’t it, when anyone else does that it’s “powerful” “fierce” “empowering” but if a guy does it, it is “misogynistic” or “oppressive”

If we only look through one lens, the perspective is always going to be skewed.

Peace

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists?

But to label all men that have taken it upon themselves to live outside of societal norms as extremists is a little bit of a stretch, in my opinion. "

I don't think anyone is doing that. Being polyamorous, I know many men who live outside of societal norms, including many who reject the ideas of marriage and/or living with partners and/or having children. Many men on here live outside of societal norms by choosing this lifestyle or choosing to remain single. However if anything I would say its unfair on these men to associate them with this movement just because they meet the literal definition of the name when the group itself is displaying a lot of disturbing ideology. There's a group called Concerned Women for America that are actually a radical Christian pro life group. It's a bit like saying someone criticising them is being unfair as there are plenty of good women who are concerned for America.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists?

Well, there's a 'quotes' section on their website that has such delights as

'Being MGTOW means never having to say “HAPPY VALENTINES DAY" to some useless cunt that stopped being “interesting” 5 years ago.'

Love abit of cherry picking

Funnily enough I wasn't going to spam the forum with the many, many examples of misogyny you can find on MGTOW websites.

People can Google and check them out for themselves.

There's a part where they compare living among women to living among landmines thanks to the me too movement

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

As I state. Given voice to any extremist regardless of their physical characteristics is flawed, it only serves to propagate mistrust and extreme reaction

It's a false equivalence because you're referring to a blog post with some "supportive messages", and comparing it to a substantial ideological movement.

This isn't men vs women. It's equality vs oppression. You shouldn't struggle with what side to be on here.

Funny isn’t it, when anyone else does that it’s “powerful” “fierce” “empowering” but if a guy does it, it is “misogynistic” or “oppressive”

If we only look through one lens, the perspective is always going to be skewed.

Peace

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists?

But to label all men that have taken it upon themselves to live outside of societal norms as extremists is a little bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

Yes.

I quite like life.

Pro life I am emphatically not

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

Well this is an interesting thread. All new to me

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I would argue that most Men Going Their Own Way do not even known a website exists, they have just decided to go their own way. Do feminists just have the one website that speaks for ALL feminists? Do Christians?

But to label all men that have taken it upon themselves to live outside of societal norms as extremists is a little bit of a stretch, in my opinion. "

Nobody is saying that men that have "taken it upon themselves to live outside of societal norms" are extremists. Lots of men (and women) choose not to have traditional relationships for lots of reasons.

People that specifically subscribe to the MGTOW ideology, by definition, hate women (or, at least, hate societies where women are equal to men). Like, that's the point of the ideology.

The MGTOW manifesto has three goals:

- Instilling masculinity in men

- Instilling femininity in women

- Limited government (yes, really..)

If you're a man that has just gone his own way in life, that's not the same as subscribing to the specific, hateful views spread by this community, and that's not what we're talking about.

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By *ocusMan
over a year ago

Cambridge

My two cents: don’t give those people the oxygen of publicity, I bet bucks to bullshit if you include them and publish you’ll get hate mail saying you’ve misrepresented them on purpose as part the “female agenda”.

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By *imple2020Man
over a year ago

Co Durham

Well this has got me interested... like a good owld debate... nice to see some decorum within it too... I'll keep my eye on it till it gets closed...

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By *ecadent_DevonMan
over a year ago

Okehampton

"Well this has got me interested... like a good owld debate... nice to see some decorum within it too... I'll keep my eye on it till it gets closed...

It has been “pleasant” hasn’t it.

It is a strange world we live in now, one which seems to generate and promote “extremes”. Sometimes I cannot fathom it and I struggle to understand all of the nuances in this life. More often than not I am aghast at “human” behaviour , regardless of the gender, sexuality or other identifying characteristics of the perpetrator of that behaviour.

One thing for sure is I find myself retreating more from this extreme society. A good healthy debate is a sharing of experiences and minds, you are unlikely to change someone, but you can make them think and this debate has made me think. I think today more than ever there is more hate in this world and there is greater polarisation. I think that’s a sad thing.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Well they sound like a pack of wankers and as my book is a guide for women I’m going to have to include these MGTOW dudes as people to swerve.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Within [the manosphere] are 'Pick-up Artists' ... who are probably more relevant to dating."

There's a whole subplot on the underhand techniques of PUAs in Michaela Coel's excellent TV series I May Destroy You, all 12 episodes of which you can see currently on BBC iPlayer.

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By *unmatt888Man
over a year ago

Duns

As I state. Given voice to any extremist regardless of their physical characteristics is flawed, it only serves to propagate mistrust and extreme reaction

It's a false equivalence because you're referring to a blog post with some "supportive messages", and comparing it to a substantial ideological movement.

This isn't men vs women. It's equality vs oppression. You shouldn't struggle with what side to be on here.

Funny isn’t it, when anyone else does that it’s “powerful” “fierce” “empowering” but if a guy does it, it is “misogynistic” or “oppressive”

If we only look through one lens, the perspective is always going to be skewed.

Peace

Out of curiosity, is their website written by extremists?

But to label all men that have taken it upon themselves to live outside of societal norms as extremists is a little bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

Like the Reasonablists in Parks and Recreation.

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

"Well they sound like a pack of wankers and as my book is a guide for women I’m going to have to include these MGTOW dudes as people to swerve. "

I don’t think they’ll need swerving as they won’t be dating women anyway by the sound of it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well they sound like a pack of wankers and as my book is a guide for women I’m going to have to include these MGTOW dudes as people to swerve.

I don’t think they’ll need swerving as they won’t be dating women anyway by the sound of it."

They definitely do. When they say they want to "seal off" from the world, they mean with women that they've "instilled femininity" into (read: crushed their spirit so that they can control them).

In the mean time, they see the freedom women have as illigitimate anyway - so satisfying their needs by any means necessary is fine to them (standard PUA tactics like love bombing, gaslighting etc).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why is MGTOW such a difficult thing to understand for some people?

I know some people online can take it a bit far, but in general, if a guy wants to do something like that then why not?

It's still better than this modern wave of feminism.

Nothing wrong with a guy looking after himself and making himself better for his own happiness and prosperity

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"My two cents: don’t give those people the oxygen of publicity, I bet bucks to bullshit if you include them and publish you’ll get hate mail saying you’ve misrepresented them on purpose as part the “female agenda”."

Why should a woman stay quiet on an issue of concern to her? That suggestion in itself, whilst probably well intentioned, could actually be interpreted as misogynistic. "Don't upset the men or they'll get cross with you, lovely lady". I'm sure Ms Wilkes is fully aware of the potential impact of her writing and more than able to handle the outcomes. She doesn't need protecting or warning, I'd say.

PS: I mean the above with the best of intentions

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I just don't understand why people find this concept so difficult to grasp. Like someone said above, these are just guys doing their own thing and bettering themselves.

Yes, you get the dickheads anti female warriors on YouTube, but in general, the idea is just men who are fed up of being treated like dirt in their eyes. It's mostly an American thing where the justice system is stacked against men. Especially regarding divorce etc

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

PS: I mean the above with the best of intentions

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well they sound like a pack of wankers and as my book is a guide for women I’m going to have to include these MGTOW dudes as people to swerve. "

Include your example you posted above. Love bombing and gaslighting.

You are lucky he blocked you and didn't continue to harass you. At least you got a shag out of it. X

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As I state. Given voice to any extremist regardless of their physical characteristics is flawed, it only serves to propagate mistrust and extreme reaction

It's a false equivalence because you're referring to a blog post with some "supportive messages", and comparing it to a substantial ideological movement.

This isn't men vs women. It's equality vs oppression. You shouldn't struggle with what side to be on here.

Funny isn’t it, when anyone else does that it’s “powerful” “fierce” “empowering” but if a guy does it, it is “misogynistic” or “oppressive”

If we only look through one lens, the perspective is always going to be skewed.

Peace

MGTOW are misogynists for the most part.

Equally as “feminists” who only talk shit about men are misandrists.

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By *ocusMan
over a year ago

Cambridge

PS: I mean the above with the best of intentions

I apologise to you and the OP if I sounded misogynistic. It wasn’t my intention. I didn’t mean to come across as patronising in any way and my original post was meant with the best of intentions also.

My post was intended to show my disdain for a movement that is full of bad faith actors and not denigrate the OP in any way.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

The best line between "don't feed the trolls" and "we need to fight back can be hard to locate sometimes

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 08/10/20 18:59:02]

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

PS: I mean the above with the best of intentions

My post was intended to show my disdain for a movement that is full of bad faith actors and not denigrate the OP in any way.

Thank you, and by that response, it confirms that my original impression was right - you had/have the best intentions

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I just don't understand why people find this concept so difficult to grasp. Like someone said above, these are just guys doing their own thing and bettering themselves.

There’s nothing wrong with anyone deciding to live for themselves and put themselves first.

In fact I encourage it.

But those who do that don’t need a hashtag or a label like MGTOW they just do it and live their lives. That’s the difference. The actual decent men going their own way and living for them are too busy living to know about a movement, those on online forums and who follow the MGTOW hashtag/label/movement are the incels who think it’s cool and “in” to hate women, abuse them, mistreat them and claim they’re only good for fucking.

For balance before someone comes with their whataboutery, women who claim to be feminists online and spend their days talking negatively about men are mostly misandrists too, real feminists don’t need to shout and scream about how they’re feminists or how “terrible” men are, because it’s not about men, it’s about equality.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I just don't understand why people find this concept so difficult to grasp. Like someone said above, these are just guys doing their own thing and bettering themselves.

There’s nothing wrong with anyone deciding to live for themselves and put themselves first.

In fact I encourage it.

Couldn't agree with you more

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I saw the post headline and thought if you buy an old MG your definitely going to be needing a tow every now and again

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

I think it’s a worry for women looking to date and find a life partner when the decent hard working men have all decided to pull out of the game and do their own thing. The only ones left will be the pick up types and fuck boys, who are ok for fun.

We already are hearing women complaining that there are no decent men on the dating scene!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It does just seem like these days guys are just out for what they can get. They don’t want to commit they just want sex and an exit plan ready. I know not all guys are like this, just seems like my friends and I are meeting some right rotters.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When’s your book coming out OP ?

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By *dam1971Man
over a year ago

Bedford

"It does just seem like these days guys are just out for what they can get. They don’t want to commit they just want sex and an exit plan ready. I know not all guys are like this, just seems like my friends and I are meeting some right rotters. "

As you say, your experience is this but it’s definitely not true for all.

Change the kind of people you meet for a different result

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do you think you put out this vibe to the men you're meeting? Maybe that's why it seems they have an exit plan ready.

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By *ussD1Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

"If your book is primarily about dating I don't think you'd need to include MGTOW as I don't think they'd be on the dating scene.

Seems to be they want to live seperately from women.

If an unsuspecting, vulnerable woman is lucky then they'll be picked up and used in the short term - but many want partners, just on their terms.

I think my most recent experience that’s fucking bothered me greatly, think that guy had some ‘issues’.

Simple analysis. The guys a wanker.

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By *ussD1Man
over a year ago

Gloucester

These people aren’t hard to spot if you’re aware and alert.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

These people aren’t hard to spot if you’re aware and alert. "

Not always the case.

You can be aware and alert and still get fucked over by people, it happens everyday.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Do you think you put out this vibe to the men you're meeting? Maybe that's why it seems they have an exit plan ready."

I might be but I doubt every girl mate I’ve had and spoken to is sending out the same vibes. I have friends in all different circumstance, childless friends, even my sister who is 25, stunning has her masters, 2 really good jobs, she’s finding the same amongst her age demographic as well.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Maybe it’s just welsh people.

First they gave up on rugby, now this!

I worry for the Welsh

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

These people aren’t hard to spot if you’re aware and alert.

Not always the case.

You can be aware and alert and still get fucked over by people, it happens everyday. "

I agree. I know I’m using this most recent guy as an example a lot but when he came about I wasn’t speaking to any other guys, I was happy and doing my own thing. I thought right I haven’t met him off any site, I haven’t gone looking for him. He came to do work at my house then came back to do more, added me on insta, was already Facebook friends and he was messaging me a lot. After the second time he came I messaged him to thank him for the job he did and he sent a message saying he rang his mate to tell him about me after he left, said when I messaged he was on another job thinking about me and when I messaged he said he didn’t care what it said as long as it was off me. After that he was constantly saying really nice soppy shit.

I remember messaging my friend on WhatsApp cos she was having dramas with a guy and he was messaging me on fb messenger asking why I was slow with my replies and I said hang on I’m messaging my mate and he said tell her to fuck off she stealing my (insert my name) time! I said she’s having dramas and wondering if she should send another message as she’s already messaged this morning and he was like you’re lucky you don’t have to worry about that, you can message me 5 times 100 times and I won’t mind.

Like all shit like that was confusing and it did make me think he actually liked me cos you can tell when something is one sided or not and that felt like he was very keen. Until he had what he wanted. Then when I messaged him after he was like I can’t deal with this and blocked me. Told a mutual friend that he didn’t want me messaging 24/7 so had no choice other than block!

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

Do you think you put out this vibe to the men you're meeting? Maybe that's why it seems they have an exit plan ready.

Maybe it’s that guys are thinking that they are better off not being in relationships or married and always having an “out“ ready for when it starts to get to serious for them.

I watched a couple of these videos last night and it seems that they feel that men have nothing to gain and everything to lose by getting into any form of long term relationship and are therefore pulling out and choosing to live there life as bachelors.

The way that they are criticised, even on this thread only reinforces their reasoning behind their life choice.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Do you think you put out this vibe to the men you're meeting? Maybe that's why it seems they have an exit plan ready.

Maybe it’s that guys are thinking that they are better off not being in relationships or married and always having an “out“ ready for when it starts to get to serious for them.

The way that they are criticised, even on this thread only reinforces their reasoning behind their life choice.

If more and more men are feeling that same way it’s gonna leave hardly anyone that actually wants something other than a casual relationship on their terms. If a guy feels like that already and then they get involved with a woman and sleep with her multiple times until they’ve had enough, they can walk away easily without emotion but by giving their time and appearing to be emotionally invested in the beginning it’s very confusing for women.

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

Do you think you put out this vibe to the men you're meeting? Maybe that's why it seems they have an exit plan ready.

Maybe it’s that guys are thinking that they are better off not being in relationships or married and always having an “out“ ready for when it starts to get to serious for them.

The way that they are criticised, even on this thread only reinforces their reasoning behind their life choice.

Yes, completely agree. It is as though there is a great big divisive wedge being hammered in between men and women where their only interaction is sex. Women are saying “ I don’t need no man” and men are agreeing.

The glue in the yin & yams seems to have lost its stickiness.

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

“Yang” not yams

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So, as a point that doesn't seem to have been tackled here (because the subject is MGTOW specifically): people deserve happiness, but nobody is responsible for providing that happiness.

If there are "no men left" (which is probably not true) then individual men aren't responsible for changing how they want to live their lives to ensure more women can have the lives they want. It is not a "right" for people to have a relationship. If people are to be free then we must accept that some of those people just aren't going to want to "settle down" in a monogamous relationship.

In fact, that's just a people thing - lots of men report being "incels" (and pursue a toxic path which all but cements their place). If Op and her friends haven't met a someone to settle down with then it's not your fault, but it's not society's fault or individual other people's fault either.

People look for something deeper, but it's just as simple as that - you might never meet someone to settle down with, and you're more likely to be happy (and find happiness) if you can make peace with that. It sucks, but short of coercing people into relationships I don't see what we can do about it.

There's a lot wrong with how people treat each other. But there's nothing "wrong" with a society in which everyone doesn't get what they want.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

MGTOW

Until I read this, I thought it was something to do with broken down British convertibles...

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

"So, as a point that doesn't seem to have been tackled here (because the subject is MGTOW specifically): people deserve happiness, but nobody is responsible for providing that happiness.

There's a lot wrong with how people treat each other. But there's nothing "wrong" with a society in which everyone doesn't get what they want."

Absolutely agree with this.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"So, as a point that doesn't seem to have been tackled here (because the subject is MGTOW specifically): people deserve happiness, but nobody is responsible for providing that happiness.

There's a lot wrong with how people treat each other. But there's nothing "wrong" with a society in which everyone doesn't get what they want."

God yes

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By *reamblueMan
over a year ago

London

Jeez. I'd never heard of it before now. Sounds like there are psychological issues within that group.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Here's a little parable I heard somewhere which might be appropriate to your book.

A woman has recently moved into a new village where she is unknown and doesn't know anyone. One day she wanders into the local Post Office and starts to make conversation with the proprietor. "What are the people like in this village?" she asks. "Well it's difficult to say" the proprietor responds, "What were the people like in the last place you lived?". "Oh they were awful" the women answers, "they were a bunch of mean, selfish, nosey, backstabbing liars". "Well" says the proprietor, "I think you'll find the people are pretty much the same here".

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By *atonMan
over a year ago

barnet

Two groups on here responding . White knights or manginas and women. Mgtow advocates are not all misogynistic rampant woman haters . They are red pillers mostly who's awareness has been raised about the relationships between men and women.They are in the legitimate business of dispelling the myths of patriarchal dominance and the disingenuous notion that men have it easier than women. Women manipulate and scheme and are far more calculating than men but these behaviours are subliminal and subconscious. They are and were an anthropological prerequisite for survival...see "monkey branching".Of course there are extreme woman haters in the organisation as there is in the feminist movement but for many the heightened awareness advocated by the movement can and is extremely advantageous . Also I am not a subscriber but given the partisan nature of the poster I'm sure I will be assumed to be.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

... someone using the word "mangina" as an insult is rather telling.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Saying women manipulate and scheme and are far more calculating than men is absolute bull shit.

A woman could straight up say to a guy look I want to fuck you and want nothing more from you after that and 9 times out of 10 a guy would be like yeah that’s fine with me let’s fuck.

A guy couldn’t say that to a woman and get sex so they make out that they’re offering more than they’re willing to give. Who’s the manipulator there?

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By *atonMan
over a year ago

barnet

I should add that most of the guys i know are not mad at women for exhibiting the subliminal behaviours explained above but recognise them for what they are .Similarly women should not reproach men for feigning emotional detachment , this again is an anthropological prerequisite to appear strong and able to protect women. In any interaction between the sexes there are many psychological aspects .

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By *atonMan
over a year ago

barnet

"Saying women manipulate and scheme and are far more calculating than men is absolute bull shit.

A woman could straight up say to a guy look I want to fuck you and want nothing more from you after that and 9 times out of 10 a guy would be like yeah that’s fine with me let’s fuck.

A guy couldn’t say that to a woman and get sex so they make out that they’re offering more than they’re willing to give. Who’s the manipulator there?"
You obviously exist in a different dimension to me . Its practised behaviour by girls who start by manipulating there dads . I have a daughter it garners them preferential treatment . Thats not my opinion but researched and buttressed by psychological data.

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By *atonMan
over a year ago

barnet

"Saying women manipulate and scheme and are far more calculating than men is absolute bull shit.

A woman could straight up say to a guy look I want to fuck you and want nothing more from you after that and 9 times out of 10 a guy would be like yeah that’s fine with me let’s fuck.

A guy couldn’t say that to a woman and get sex so they make out that they’re offering more than they’re willing to give. Who’s the manipulator there?"
You post saying you don't understand it asking for clarification and get mad at me explaining it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Saying women manipulate and scheme and are far more calculating than men is absolute bull shit.

A woman could straight up say to a guy look I want to fuck you and want nothing more from you after that and 9 times out of 10 a guy would be like yeah that’s fine with me let’s fuck.

A guy couldn’t say that to a woman and get sex so they make out that they’re offering more than they’re willing to give. Who’s the manipulator there?

You post saying you don't understand it asking for clarification and get mad at me explaining it."

I’m more sad than mad, like if this is genuinely what a proportion of men think about women then it’s just sad.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You obviously exist in a different dimension to me . Its practised behaviour by girls who start by manipulating there dads . I have a daughter it garners them preferential treatment . Thats not my opinion but researched and buttressed by psychological data. "

Buddy if you have a daughter and she's learned to manipulate men to get what she wants then either you weren't very involved in her upbringing or you bear a large amount of responsibility for that behaviour.

Please reconsider your attitude towards her.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Please reconsider your attitude towards her."

It kind of reads "women are born manipulative snakes, the poor poor men".

And... no. We're not. Women and men are moulded by our environment. And if grown men are falling for the manipulation of children, then that's their own damn fault.

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By *ocusMan
over a year ago

Cambridge

Please reconsider your attitude towards her."

Exactly this.

Strange how he said he wasn’t a subscriber to the ideology yet his attitude, terminology etc. are all straight out of their (and many other toxic online groups) playbook.

Screams of “Debate me!” In 5...4...3...

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Please reconsider your attitude towards her.

Exactly this.

Strange how he said he wasn’t a subscriber to the ideology yet his attitude, terminology etc. are all straight out of their (and many other toxic online groups) playbook.

Screams of “Debate me!” In 5...4...3..."

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

Looks like the wedge is driving on deeper rather than retracted!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It’s actually shit if guys really hold this belief that women are these master manipulators waiting to take men for everything they’ve got.

Yes there’s gold diggers and people out for what they can get but shouldn’t that be reserved for guys that are very very wealthy not your average guy where chances are the woman could earn as much as him if not more. What do those women seek to gain when they already have their own shit, their own houses, own cars, their own fucking money.

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

"It’s actually shit if guys really hold this belief that women are these master manipulators waiting to take men for everything they’ve got.

His car, house and money as well!

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"It’s actually shit if guys really hold this belief that women are these master manipulators waiting to take men for everything they’ve got.

His car, house and money as well!"

Sure.

Now imagine a brave new world where you have your stuff, I have my stuff, and we approach each other as people. Talk openly and honestly without assuming that we're after each other's stuff.

Heavens above.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Imagine a woman only wanting to have sex with you and sleep next to you, sit on the sofa and watch a movie with you. Laugh with you, hug and kiss you and go places together and just do fun things.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Imagine a woman only wanting to have sex with you and sleep next to you, sit on the sofa and watch a movie with you. Laugh with you, hug and kiss you and go places together and just do fun things.

You've described me

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Imagine a woman only wanting to have sex with you and sleep next to you, sit on the sofa and watch a movie with you. Laugh with you, hug and kiss you and go places together and just do fun things.

You've described me"

Me too. When I meet a guy I don’t think about what I stand to gain financially from being with him. If that was the case I would’ve settled down years ago with some very old very ill rich man. Or I’d be taking up all these offers from men who aren’t my type but seem happy to throw cash at you in exchange for sex.

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By *ocusMan
over a year ago

Cambridge

Personally I think the MGTOW “movement” (in reality a tiny minority and not some mass global phenomena) reinforces the quote often attributed to Margaret Atwood ;

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Personally I think the MGTOW “movement” (in reality a tiny minority and not some mass global phenomena) reinforces the quote often attributed to Margaret Atwood ;

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”"

Christ yes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"... someone using the word "mangina" as an insult is rather telling."

Absolutely.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Imagine having the mindset that female children start manipulating their dads so suddenly turn into master manipulators as adults...

Shocking.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Imagine having the mindset that female children start manipulating their dads so suddenly turn into master manipulators as adults...

Shocking. "

It's quite appalling.

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By *atonMan
over a year ago

barnet

Listen to Jordan peterson on the subject . All girls do it but as I said in my posts and you all seek to misinterpret, its an anthropological tactic . A survival technique. A study of primal hunter gatherer behaviour is needed to determine why . It dosnt give men the right to admonish or think less of women because of it. I do not dislike women at all. We have come so far because of a cooperative between the sexes . A symbiotic journey. I am merely pointing out the not often discussed dynamics between the two and rejecting the notion of a subjugating patriarchal society. Men simply do not have it easier.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Evo psych gets abused for a lot of things, including this.

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By *atonMan
over a year ago

barnet

"It’s actually shit if guys really hold this belief that women are these master manipulators waiting to take men for everything they’ve got.

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By *atonMan
over a year ago

barnet

Please reconsider your attitude towards her."
I have a wonderful relationship with my daughter who is a hard working citizen graduate and subscriber to many worthy causes. A presumption about my relationship with my daughter is fucking insulting ...see" white knights and simps" your just the sort of guy mgtowers despise more than anything.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"It’s actually shit if guys really hold this belief that women are these master manipulators waiting to take men for everything they’ve got.

"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression"

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I have no idea why. A possible contributor is the availability of this kind of movement and information, from pick up artists and now this MGTOW thing and incels and all other manosphere splinter groups.

Also guys seeing bad things happening to other guys or themselves from women and expecting every woman to treat them the same way.

Like guys get all bent out of shape if you say you’ve got trust issues from previous relationships or some other issues from previous relationships, they expect us not to carry the shit from previous relationships and judge them on their own merit whilst they are using things that other women have done to them or people they know as reasons not to get into relationships with a completely new woman.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Please reconsider your attitude towards her.I have a wonderful relationship with my daughter who is a hard working citizen graduate and subscriber to many worthy causes. A presumption about my relationship with my daughter is fucking insulting ...see" white knights and simps" your just the sort of guy mgtowers despise more than anything."

You literally told us that she manipulates men to get her own way.

Great that you've got a good relationship with her

do some good with it. Take some time to e.g. learn about psychology (instead of cherry-picking your sources) and become a good male role model to your daughter. Take some time to consider a woman as a person and a human, not too much unlike yourself - and then start seeing your daughter as a human being too. Because the way you go off on these forums, spilling this dehumanising bile about women/minorities/whatever else.. as a father, it's reasonable to expect better of you.

"MGTOWers", like all spreaders of hate, despise people that call them out on it. I don't mind these people despising me. Lots of bigots and fascists despise me.

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By *attM73Man
over a year ago

Oldham

"Imagine a woman only wanting to have sex with you and sleep next to you, sit on the sofa and watch a movie with you. Laugh with you, hug and kiss you and go places together and just do fun things.

"
she doesn’t exist in my experience any way

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I have no idea why. A possible contributor is the availability of this kind of movement and information, from pick up artists and now this MGTOW thing and incels and all other manosphere splinter groups.

Also guys seeing bad things happening to other guys or themselves from women and expecting every woman to treat them the same way.

FWIW, the "manosphere" is a (dangerous!) minority of men. Most men (most people!) are passively sexist in a bunch of ways but ultimately haven't built a totem out of hate to worship and spread.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I'd hate to live within this ideology that women are born manipulators of helpless men, and are their constant enemies. And that any man who thinks otherwise is brainwashed.

I think better of both men and women.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Also guys seeing bad things happening to other guys or themselves from women and expecting every woman to treat them the same way.

FWIW, the "manosphere" is a (dangerous!) minority of men. Most men (most people!) are passively sexist in a bunch of ways but ultimately haven't built a totem out of hate to worship and spread."

Yes!

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By *atonMan
over a year ago

barnet

You literally told us that she manipulates men to get her own way.

Great that you've got a good relationship with her

"MGTOWers", like all spreaders of hate, despise people that call them out on it. I don't mind these people despising me. Lots of bigots and fascists despise me."
Social justice warriors and manginas hate me ..water off a ducks back ..hope your posts get you laid but please stop with the patronising bullshit

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I love that "social justice warrior" has become an insult. What a world

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Social justice warriors and manginas hate me ..water off a ducks back ..hope your posts get you laid but please stop with the patronising bullshit "

I am literally a social justice warrior

not that it matters in this context. And I can assure you, more women have blocked me than slept with me for what I have to say - the best way to get laid is to keep quiet and let everyone project their values on to you, not to express an opinion people disagree with (everyone inevitably disagrees with you on something).

If you find it patronising for me to tell you to consider your own daughter as an equal human person, instead of one of these "manipulative women", then don't talk about how you've clearly indoctrinated her into your hate.

Can't stand the heat, don't light the fire.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You literally told us that she manipulates men to get her own way.

Great that you've got a good relationship with her

"MGTOWers", like all spreaders of hate, despise people that call them out on it. I don't mind these people despising me. Lots of bigots and fascists despise me.Social justice warriors and manginas hate me ..water off a ducks back ..hope your posts get you laid but please stop with the patronising bullshit "

“Hope your posts get you laid”

You’ve literally just exposed yourself there. You think any man who disagrees with your views is doing it to get their dick wet.

Incel behaviour.

Reminds me of the childish “Shes not gonna shag you” comments on Twitter everytime a man agreed with a woman.

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By *ocusMan
over a year ago

Cambridge

“Listen to Jordan peterson”

Why would I do that when he’s consistently wrong on much of what he talks about?

Are you not suffering from confirmation bias?

Who else have you read to take apart and examine his claims?

I’ve read Peterson, Foucault, Derrida, Hogsbawm, Butler, Jensen, Barthes, Baudrillard and others in order to approach an understanding of the intricacies of human relationships with each other and the world around us (both natural and man-made.

As an aside: I’ve had many discussions with people online who tout Peterson’s theories. I’ve replied as I have done above and been told I’ve been “indoctrinated ”...by people who have listened to a single commentator’s argument and swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

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By *unmatt888Man
over a year ago

Duns

You literally told us that she manipulates men to get her own way.

Great that you've got a good relationship with her

Ah, the "white knight" fallacy that men are only nice to women because they're hoping for a fuck.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It seems to me that more and more men these days don't want full-time relationships with women and there are quite a few posts above that give good reasons for this situation. As always, it's best just to keep quiet about it lest one enrages the screeching harridans

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"“Listen to Jordan peterson”

Why would I do that when he’s consistently wrong on much of what he talks about?

Are you not suffering from confirmation bias?

Who else have you read to take apart and examine his claims?

Yeah, done the reading, just seeing the names gives me an excellent idea of the thrust of the argument.

I think some people think we come to these views for... no reason? *Shrug* it's not like these commentaries are restricted only for some people to read.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Ah, the "white knight" fallacy that men are only nice to women because they're hoping for a fuck."

Says more about the person saying it, usually.

Imagine thinking that men never actually agree with women

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

And I'll say it again.

Thank gods I'm not on the dating scene. I could not put up with all this.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"And I'll say it again.

Thank gods I'm not on the dating scene. I could not put up with all this. "

I agree. Absolutely ecstatic that I met S at school and we've been together ever since! No drama....

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"And I'll say it again.

Thank gods I'm not on the dating scene. I could not put up with all this. "

It's a fantastic filter. You hear some words and go... Nope

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And I'll say it again.

Thank gods I'm not on the dating scene. I could not put up with all this. "

Lucky you!

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"And I'll say it again.

Thank gods I'm not on the dating scene. I could not put up with all this.

I agree. Absolutely ecstatic that I met S at school and we've been together ever since! No drama.... "

I know I'm older than most on here and probably sound all "I remember when this was fields" but we used to meet in pubs, discos lol, bars, work etc. Go out a few times, have sex a bit then it would all end in tears and sometimes it wouldn't. We learned pretty fast to spot a guy who only wanted sex despite claiming he didn't or a woman who was after a meal ticket and oddly these types of people frequently ended up together spending many unhappy years together fighting with each other and rolling their eyes saying "men!" or "women!"

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"And I'll say it again.

Thank gods I'm not on the dating scene. I could not put up with all this.

It's a fantastic filter. You hear some words and go... Nope

T'was ever thus.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"And I'll say it again.

Thank gods I'm not on the dating scene. I could not put up with all this.

Lucky you!

I think it would pretty much go over my head anyway. I'm a simple soul

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By *egasus NobMan
over a year ago

Merton

Men manipulate women, women manipulate men it is called survival, in the end, it doesn't even matter [had to] everybody is looking for l.o.v.e even those in denial.

If you share similarities enjoy the ride both the good times and bad times. That is the pleasure of life.

I once hear a millionaire whose friend was telling him you know those women are using you and his answer was I know.

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By *irth VaderMan
over a year ago

glasgow

Most of them earn £30-£40k a year, drive a BMW or Audi, see their pals for a beer once a month, have a couple of designer items that they wear too often and think a Jennifer Anniston lookalike is going to fall on her back with her legs open when they meet.

I think the Scottish term is CVNTS but I’m not sure of the spelling.

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By *stbury DavenportMan
over a year ago

Nottingham

I'm comparatively new on Fab. Several things about this site have disturbed me, but the pertinent ones are these:

- that so many people here are unaware of the various dangerous hate groups that comprise the "manosphere"

- that several proponents of these dangerously misogynistic ideologies have already infiltrated this community, and appear to be operating quite openly.

Make no mistake: PUAs, MRAs, MGTOWs, incels, semen retainers, and all the other virulent misogynists that make up the "manosphere" are both real and dangerous.

Furthermore, the "manosphere" is widely recognised as a feeder route into other dangerous far-right ideological groups.

I strongly recommend the blog We Hunted The Mammoth. It's operated by the journalist David Futrelle, who has been tracking (and mocking) these people for some years now.

Take a look. Learn the signs. Stay away from these absolute weapons.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"And I'll say it again.

Thank gods I'm not on the dating scene. I could not put up with all this.

I agree. Absolutely ecstatic that I met S at school and we've been together ever since! No drama....

We didn't even do that! We flirted in Physics lessons, built a capacitor that discharged instantly. Got together at a house party the day after another house party at mine, where S had puked all over my mother's bathroom floor. Ever else at the second party went to the pub, but I had my son asleep there, so S honorably decided he wasn't drinking, stayed with me. We sat on the sofa to watch Orange County and as the film progressed, we got closer and eventually we kissed at the end. We shared a bed (pretty chastely) and I'll never forget my son's face (18 months old) the next morning "who the fuck are you (S) and why are you in bed with my mum?" We made kiddie breakfast together and spent the rest of day chilling with our friends, watching kids TV, playing kiddy games and generally enjoying life. I took S home later in my little car and it all went from there. That was Feb 2004

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By *ocusMan
over a year ago

Cambridge

[Removed by poster at 09/10/20 13:41:08]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm comparatively new on Fab. Several things about this site have disturbed me, but the pertinent ones are these:

- that so many people here are unaware of the various dangerous hate groups that comprise the "manosphere"

- that several proponents of these dangerously misogynistic ideologies have already infiltrated this community, and appear to be operating quite openly.

Make no mistake: PUAs, MRAs, MGTOWs, incels, semen retainers, and all the other virulent misogynists that make up the "manosphere" are both real and dangerous.

Furthermore, the "manosphere" is widely recognised as a feeder route into other dangerous far-right ideological groups.

I strongly recommend the blog We Hunted The Mammoth. It's operated by the journalist David Futrelle, who has been tracking (and mocking) these people for some years now.

Take a look. Learn the signs. Stay away from these absolute weapons. "

The main problems are that the mods aren't necessarily aware of these people, so they don't realise the dog-whistles and the concern trolling. Like, outside of communities like Reddit it's really hard to keep up with it, and then it's too late.

A secondary problem is that all these phrases and acronyms sound ridiculous and it's really hard to believe they're real and dangerous

"manosphere" sounds like it'd be next to GQ on the magazine rack.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

Ive never been on the dating scene or gone looking for a boyfriend. Ive always just got into relationships and thank god id never put myself through all that would sooner be single

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I'm comparatively new on Fab. Several things about this site have disturbed me, but the pertinent ones are these:

- that so many people here are unaware of the various dangerous hate groups that comprise the "manosphere"

- that several proponents of these dangerously misogynistic ideologies have already infiltrated this community, and appear to be operating quite openly.

Make no mistake: PUAs, MRAs, MGTOWs, incels, semen retainers, and all the other virulent misogynists that make up the "manosphere" are both real and dangerous.

Furthermore, the "manosphere" is widely recognised as a feeder route into other dangerous far-right ideological groups.

I strongly recommend the blog We Hunted The Mammoth. It's operated by the journalist David Futrelle, who has been tracking (and mocking) these people for some years now.

Take a look. Learn the signs. Stay away from these absolute weapons. "

I'll echo this. You need a strong, strong stomach for We Hunted the Mammoth, though. I can rarely stand it.

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By *eneral HysteriaMan
over a year ago

Newcastle

"... That’s taken off an online article. "

Must be true then

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Tails of how people met their significant other are lovely but they have no place on this thread neither do the wouldn’t want to be in your single shoes comments.

Pat Benatar was absolutely right about Love.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Tails of how people met their significant other are lovely but they have no place on this thread neither do the wouldn’t want to be in your single shoes comments.

Pat Benatar was absolutely right about Love. "

I shan't contribute again

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm comparatively new on Fab. Several things about this site have disturbed me, but the pertinent ones are these:

- that so many people here are unaware of the various dangerous hate groups that comprise the "manosphere"

- that several proponents of these dangerously misogynistic ideologies have already infiltrated this community, and appear to be operating quite openly.

Make no mistake: PUAs, MRAs, MGTOWs, incels, semen retainers, and all the other virulent misogynists that make up the "manosphere" are both real and dangerous.

Furthermore, the "manosphere" is widely recognised as a feeder route into other dangerous far-right ideological groups.

I strongly recommend the blog We Hunted The Mammoth. It's operated by the journalist David Futrelle, who has been tracking (and mocking) these people for some years now.

Take a look. Learn the signs. Stay away from these absolute weapons.

I'll echo this. You need a strong, strong stomach for We Hunted the Mammoth, though. I can rarely stand it."

I’m going to look this up.

I want to know more.

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

What on earth is an incel ?

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By *stbury DavenportMan
over a year ago

Nottingham

"What on earth is an incel ?"

"Incel" is a contraction of "involuntarily celibate". The Wikipedia article provides a well-cited definition:

Incels are "members of an online subculture who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one. Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against sexually active people. The American nonprofit Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) described the subculture as 'part of the online male supremacist ecosystem' that is included in their list of hate groups."

Some incels feel so aggrieved they murder people over it.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"What on earth is an incel ?

"Incel" is a contraction of "involuntarily celibate". The Wikipedia article provides a well-cited definition:

Some incels feel so aggrieved they murder people over it. "

"I can't get laid, this isn't my fault" meets (in some cases) terrorism.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What on earth is an incel ?"

Involuntary Celibates. People who define themselves as unable to find a partner, despite desiring one. The Incel community encourages hatred of women for not being attracted to them, essentially.

They're a relatively big terrorism threat, because these people encourage and build on each other's hatred until they resolve to commit atrocities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel#Mass_murders_and_violence

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thank gobudlah that hookers exist

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