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"My transgender daughter knew from very young age ! Just wish I had known so as to get her the help she needed far earlier! Before she cut herself/ tried to end her life (which I never knew about till later) obviously I saw the arm cutting but she is a very happy young lady now living as who she should have allways been x" 
I'm sorry she suffered but am glad she's better now.
Much love xx | |||
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"My transgender daughter knew from very young age ! Just wish I had known so as to get her the help she needed far earlier! Before she cut herself/ tried to end her life (which I never knew about till later) obviously I saw the arm cutting but she is a very happy young lady now living as who she should have allways been x
I'm sorry she suffered but am glad she's better now.
Much love xx"Thank you x | |||
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" Another flyaway comment, but at what age does a child fully understand the multitude of confusing emotions, hormones,experiences and outside influences (sometimes badly delivered)to be able to make long term decisions?" I'd turn this around. At what age do you as a cis person that you're not trans? I've felt female for as long as I can remember. Fortunately for me I was AFAB. Why do we let people be straight or cis but turn being non straight or non cis into "you don't know yet?" | |||
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" Another flyaway comment, but at what age does a child fully understand the multitude of confusing emotions, hormones,experiences and outside influences (sometimes badly delivered)to be able to make long term decisions? I'd turn this around. At what age do you as a cis person that you're not trans? I've felt female for as long as I can remember. Fortunately for me I was AFAB. Why do we let people be straight or cis but turn being non straight or non cis into "you don't know yet?"" How do you feel female ? I'm just interested as, I just feel a person. Ms | |||
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" Another flyaway comment, but at what age does a child fully understand the multitude of confusing emotions, hormones,experiences and outside influences (sometimes badly delivered)to be able to make long term decisions? I'd turn this around. At what age do you as a cis person that you're not trans? I've felt female for as long as I can remember. Fortunately for me I was AFAB. Why do we let people be straight or cis but turn being non straight or non cis into "you don't know yet?" How do you feel female ? I'm just interested as, I just feel a person. Ms" I suppose it's more "not male". The idea of being a man doesn't make sense to me. (I'm not wedded to most particular ideas of female-ness, but I'm emphatically not male) | |||
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"I suppose it's more "not male". The idea of being a man doesn't make sense to me. (I'm not wedded to most particular ideas of female-ness, but I'm emphatically not male)" I can only speak from my own experience as can anyone to be honest but for me it was completely this. I never fitted in with who or what I knew people were expecting of me, I just knew that I was something else and wanted to do things that I wasn’t allowed to do. I never understood it but in time it all came together and the world started to make sense. I still wouldn’t say that I feel female, I feel “me” and for the first time in my life I feel “right” ..... ....plus I no longer try to harm myself and am a productive member of society so that gotta be a bonus right ?   | |||
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"I suppose it's more "not male". The idea of being a man doesn't make sense to me. (I'm not wedded to most particular ideas of female-ness, but I'm emphatically not male) I can only speak from my own experience as can anyone to be honest but for me it was completely this. I never fitted in with who or what I knew people were expecting of me, I just knew that I was something else and wanted to do things that I wasn’t allowed to do. I never understood it but in time it all came together and the world started to make sense. I still wouldn’t say that I feel female, I feel “me” and for the first time in my life I feel “right” ..... ....plus I no longer try to harm myself and am a productive member of society so that gotta be a bonus right ? "
I'm all for being who you are. Who you know you are.
I've always had a strong sense of my gender. I'm fortunate that it aligns with my biological configuration. | |||
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"Who's suing them? " A 23 year old who began treatment at 16 to become a boy and the parent of a 16 year old. | |||
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"Who's suing them? A 23 year old who began treatment at 16 to become a boy and the parent of a 16 year old. " I'm assuming they now feel it was a mistake. | |||
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" Another flyaway comment, but at what age does a child fully understand the multitude of confusing emotions, hormones,experiences and outside influences (sometimes badly delivered)to be able to make long term decisions? I'd turn this around. At what age do you as a cis person that you're not trans? I've felt female for as long as I can remember. Fortunately for me I was AFAB. Why do we let people be straight or cis but turn being non straight or non cis into "you don't know yet?" How do you feel female ? I'm just interested as, I just feel a person. Ms I suppose it's more "not male". The idea of being a man doesn't make sense to me. (I'm not wedded to most particular ideas of female-ness, but I'm emphatically not male)" Thanks for answering x | |||
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"It's a very controversial topic, and with a lot of prejudice to. But about 75%of attendees were born female and want to become male. Which is interesting in itself. Wandering how many actually just become lesbians?, or male in to female become gay, bisexual males?. Very young age to make such a huge decision, I think its got too be 18,after this lawsuit, which could be worth thousands in compensation. Because what doctors would dare risk their profession by prescribing. " The problem with that, is that by the age of 18 it's too late for most male to female transsexuals because they've already gone through puberty and suffered it's irreversible changes to their bodies. Puberty blockers should remain available as an intervention, because withdrawing them is going to cause more harm to the trans community in general, than taking them did to the handful who have since changed their minds. Puberty blockers are not cross sex hormones and do not cause irreversible changes on young people. They have been used successfully for over thirty years now and I can't help but feel that there's some malicious intent behind these lawsuits. Cross sex hormones are only very rarely prescribed to under 18s anyway. If they win their case it's going to cause untold misery for thousands of young transsexuals. | |||
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"It's a very controversial topic, and with a lot of prejudice to. But about 75%of attendees were born female and want to become male. Which is interesting in itself. Wandering how many actually just become lesbians?, or male in to female become gay, bisexual males?. Very young age to make such a huge decision, I think its got too be 18,after this lawsuit, which could be worth thousands in compensation. Because what doctors would dare risk their profession by prescribing. The problem with that, is that by the age of 18 it's too late for most male to female transsexuals because they've already gone through puberty and suffered it's irreversible changes to their bodies. Puberty blockers should remain available as an intervention, because withdrawing them is going to cause more harm to the trans community in general, than taking them did to the handful who have since changed their minds. Puberty blockers are not cross sex hormones and do not cause irreversible changes on young people. They have been used successfully for over thirty years now and I can't help but feel that there's some malicious intent behind these lawsuits. Cross sex hormones are only very rarely prescribed to under 18s anyway. If they win their case it's going to cause untold misery for thousands of young transsexuals." This is my fear I really hope it dont! X | |||
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"This is my fear I really hope it dont! X" It’s pretty rare for it to happen. All I can say is for your daughter to be honest with herself and with those helping her and she’ll find what’s right for her. Best of luck on her (and your) journey x | |||
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"It's a very controversial topic, and with a lot of prejudice to. But about 75%of attendees were born female and want to become male. Which is interesting in itself. Wandering how many actually just become lesbians?, or male in to female become gay, bisexual males?. Very young age to make such a huge decision, I think its got too be 18,after this lawsuit, which could be worth thousands in compensation. Because what doctors would dare risk their profession by prescribing. The problem with that, is that by the age of 18 it's too late for most male to female transsexuals because they've already gone through puberty and suffered it's irreversible changes to their bodies. Puberty blockers should remain available as an intervention, because withdrawing them is going to cause more harm to the trans community in general, than taking them did to the handful who have since changed their minds. Puberty blockers are not cross sex hormones and do not cause irreversible changes on young people. They have been used successfully for over thirty years now and I can't help but feel that there's some malicious intent behind these lawsuits. Cross sex hormones are only very rarely prescribed to under 18s anyway. If they win their case it's going to cause untold misery for thousands of young transsexuals." Agreed | |||
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"They should rely more on talking therapy and social role changes, and appearance, rather than any medical intervention, and allow them to go through a proper puberty which might alleviate the dysphoria anyway. They might be gay, or bisexual, or lesbian, allow children to be children and to dress how they feel, but no medical intervention until 18." Disagree x | |||
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"They should rely more on talking therapy and social role changes, and appearance, rather than any medical intervention, and allow them to go through a proper puberty which might alleviate the dysphoria anyway. They might be gay, or bisexual, or lesbian, allow children to be children and to dress how they feel, but no medical intervention until 18." Profoundly disagree. | |||
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"They should rely more on talking therapy and social role changes, and appearance, rather than any medical intervention, and allow them to go through a proper puberty which might alleviate the dysphoria anyway. They might be gay, or bisexual, or lesbian, allow children to be children and to dress how they feel, but no medical intervention until 18." I'm sorry, but you simply do not know what you are talking about. Most trans folk know they are trans well before puberty, and I know this because I am trans and I have many friends and acquaintances who are trans, and we all share a broadly similar experience. Delaying treatment is not only unnecessary, it is also cruel, and unfortunately people with no experience of being trans are allowed to throw their opinions around as if they comprehend the way we feel. If more people would listen to us and have a little more empathy, than a lot of the mental health issues that trans people suffer could be alleviated. Attempting to deny puberty blockers to young trans people is simply the latest attack on the trans community by anti-trans activists, whose aim is to deny trans folk, and especially transwomen, their existence. Please do not fall for their propaganda. | |||
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"It's interesting that you both from the same community have complete opposing views. This makes it more interesting to hear the arguments as opposed to those who aren't and have no personal experience. Implying that it's some conspiracy and pointing the finger doesn't help the discussion. All it does is exposes bitterness or hatred that's there. This won't help in the debate in anyway. I'm genuinely interest in your statement that most know who they are preteens. I do find this hard to believe as most if not all kids face struggles of Identity at sometime some even past their teens. " All I can go by is my daughter who was a very confused child which I assumed was the asperger's she cut herself from a young ish age! Had I known why I would have got her the help she needed pre teens I feel sad that I didnt or that she didnt tell me but she knew from very young age x | |||
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"It's interesting that you both from the same community have complete opposing views. This makes it more interesting to hear the arguments as opposed to those who aren't and have no personal experience. Implying that it's some conspiracy and pointing the finger doesn't help the discussion. All it does is exposes bitterness or hatred that's there. This won't help in the debate in anyway. I'm genuinely interest in your statement that most know who they are preteens. I do find this hard to believe as most if not all kids face struggles of Identity at sometime some even past their teens. " Well thanks for proving my point. You've just made a judgement without listening to anything I've said. As I am trans, do you not think I understand my community rather better than someone who isn't? How many trans people do you know personally? I know dozens, who in turn know dozens more. Sorry, but anti-trans activism does exist, I'm not just making it up for the sake of it. You can find out for yourself if you look with an open mind. Shirley 678 may be in the same fab category as me, but that's as far as it goes. She's a transvestite who doesn't really understand trans people any better than you do. | |||
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"It's interesting that you both from the same community have complete opposing views. This makes it more interesting to hear the arguments as opposed to those who aren't and have no personal experience. Implying that it's some conspiracy and pointing the finger doesn't help the discussion. All it does is exposes bitterness or hatred that's there. This won't help in the debate in anyway. I'm genuinely interest in your statement that most know who they are preteens. I do find this hard to believe as most if not all kids face struggles of Identity at sometime some even past their teens. " For me I think that people know how they are from early on, so most boys or girls know that they are a boy or girl because they just are. The issue with gender identity is that for me at least, I knew I was a girl from an early age, but society told me I wasn't and couldn't be, because genetically I am male. So despite me knowing I am inherently female I had to conform to the expectation of being male, much to the detriment of my long term mental health. There is some evidence to suggest that being transgender is "hard wired" in some people's brains, therefore have female persona or views about themselves even prior to being born. I wish I had had the option to express who I really am from an early age. But glad that I am finally me. | |||
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"To the general public we are all transvestites, in reality. Your soul is one thing, your body is another. And it should be celebrated as being special and unique. It does not mean you have to undergo countless medical procedures and interventions, unless you desire it because it is enrichment of your identity. Children are to young to make such profound decisions. Look at jazz jenings, never even went through a male puberty, and consequently has had four different operations on her new vagina. If she had been allowed to go through a male puberty she might have been happier as a transvestite, or gay man. Medical intervention for dysphoria on children is wrong on so many levels. Let them be children first and dress how they feel. " We're not talking about children though are we, because by the time puberty begins to creep up those young people are quite capable of knowing their own minds. You are doing them a disservice by referring to them as children and you are also attempting to elicit a disapproving emotional response from people who do not fully understand the subject. We are not talking about very young children here. Puberty blockers do not cause a permanent change in the body and are used simply to buy time for an individual to decide whether they want to proceed with their treatment. They are not cross sex hormones, and their effects are reversible, unlike puberty. Cross sex hormones are only prescribed to under eighteens in exceptional circumstances. Whether or not the general public perceives transwomen as transvestites is irrelevant and nothing to do with the discussion taking place here. You and I both know that there are distinct differences between the two groups, and to claim otherwise would be disingenuous. | |||
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"Children are to young to make such profound decisions. " The medical community disagree with you. Look up gillick competence. Kids do not get hormone blockers just because they ask. They're assessed and have to prove they understand what's happening. And as others have said, treatment during teenage years can be the only chance a person gets to have the body that matches their gender. It's cruel to deny them that. Finally, it's worth noting that the number of under 18s who actually do get puberty blockers is miniscule. Transphobes try and portray it as an epidemic or a trend, but it really isn't. | |||
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"Children are to young to make such profound decisions. The medical community disagree with you. Look up gillick competence. Kids do not get hormone blockers just because they ask. They're assessed and have to prove they understand what's happening. And as others have said, treatment during teenage years can be the only chance a person gets to have the body that matches their gender. It's cruel to deny them that. Finally, it's worth noting that the number of under 18s who actually do get puberty blockers is miniscule. Transphobes try and portray it as an epidemic or a trend, but it really isn't. " Apparently Gillick competency is something some groups want to go after. FFS. | |||
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"In life people make wrong decisions, and when you are a child and teenager your emotions and sexuality are all over the place. For some children hormone blockers could be used, I accept, but I think no surgery until at least 18. As for the transvestite point of debate, that is how the public still largely view us all. If you ask most born women, that is what they see us as. Femenine males. Not women. If you ever work in a heavily female environment you will see they are far more territorial of their sex than men ever are, and have massively greater intuition than men could ever dream of. It is laughable to call women the weaker sex, because if anything they are far stronger mentally and emotionally in loads of ways. " I see my daughter as a woman just like my other 3 daughters and this is not just because she is my child ! In fact I do find it sad at times when I cant remember who she used to b that boy is someone else in my mind now! It's hard to explain but she is 100% my daughter and a woman x | |||
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"In life people make wrong decisions, and when you are a child and teenager your emotions and sexuality are all over the place. For some children hormone blockers could be used, I accept, but I think no surgery until at least 18. As for the transvestite point of debate, that is how the public still largely view us all. If you ask most born women, that is what they see us as. Femenine males. Not women. If you ever work in a heavily female environment you will see they are far more territorial of their sex than men ever are, and have massively greater intuition than men could ever dream of. It is laughable to call women the weaker sex, because if anything they are far stronger mentally and emotionally in loads of ways. " This isn't the view of the medical profession, in the main. And I certainly don't see trans women as men, feminine or otherwise. Trans women are women. | |||
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"In life people make wrong decisions, and when you are a child and teenager your emotions and sexuality are all over the place. For some children hormone blockers could be used, I accept, but I think no surgery until at least 18. As for the transvestite point of debate, that is how the public still largely view us all. If you ask most born women, that is what they see us as. Femenine males. Not women. If you ever work in a heavily female environment you will see they are far more territorial of their sex than men ever are, and have massively greater intuition than men could ever dream of. It is laughable to call women the weaker sex, because if anything they are far stronger mentally and emotionally in loads of ways. " SRS is not routinely performed on under 18s anyway, so your point is moot. Speak for yourself Shirley, and please don't patronise me either. I've been fully transitioned for almost six years, and post-op for almost three. I knew there was something different about me from a very young age, and I knew I was a girl from the age of 14, which is almost fifty years now. I've worked with other women all my adult life, and since I transitioned they have fully accepted me as a woman and given me amazing support. I have female friends and family and again I get nothing but support. None of the women I'm acquainted with consider me a feminised male, and frankly I find your description very insulting, as I'm sure most other transwomen would too. I'm not sure why you brought Jazz Jennings into this either, because she didn't have her SRS until she was 18, and she has never shown any regret over it at all. Quite a few transwomen need corrective surgery after SRS, but you won't find many of those who regret their decision to have it either. You appear to know very little about us actually, and from what you've written on this thread, I'm beginning to think you're a bit of a transphobe yourself. | |||
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"i dont think a child does understand things as complicated as this subject. the PC brigade have a lot to answer for. oh and before some groups of people get all shirty. i used to work in a night club, 20 something years ago in the north east of england. with a gay club up the road, where they had a then man who wanted to do the change. he had to live as a woman for two years before being allowed to continue. he said he didnt fit in with the gay club because he didnt feel gay. he came to our club one night to be introduced and explain what was going on. the first night he came in, dressed as a lady we introduced her around and addressed the toilet issue by taking her into the ladies to introduce her. left her there (there were sofas in there) and remembered some time later she was still in there. having a fantastic evening and lots of tips on clothes etc. all the men in the place knew what was going on. the door staff kept an eye out for her the bar staff looked afte her. i always thought it was a very brave thing for them to do at the time. but she thought we were all great because we just didnt care (in a good way)" But a child understands who they are did not u? People who are born into the correct body dont need to question who they are? Look at it like this if u woke up tomorrow morning as the opposite sex u would know it's not right yes? This is how children born into wrong body must feel? We have never had to question that x | |||
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"i dont think a child does understand things as complicated as this subject. the PC brigade have a lot to answer for" Which is precisely why children are not prescribed puberty blockers. It's nothing to do with being politically correct and everything to do with societal progress and accepting people who are different. Sadly, in many ways we have a long way to go. I'm not trying to be shirty with anyone, but can you not see how frustrating it is for us to be met with blank denial when we try and explain our situation to people who don't really understand. If only people would fully research the trans community and our allies before posting about us, it would save an awful lot of hassle and resentment on both sides. | |||
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"It's interesting that you both from the same community have complete opposing views. This makes it more interesting to hear the arguments as opposed to those who aren't and have no personal experience. Implying that it's some conspiracy and pointing the finger doesn't help the discussion. All it does is exposes bitterness or hatred that's there. This won't help in the debate in anyway. I'm genuinely interest in your statement that most know who they are preteens. I do find this hard to believe as most if not all kids face struggles of Identity at sometime some even past their teens. Well thanks for proving my point. You've just made a judgement without listening to anything I've said. As I am trans, do you not think I understand my community rather better than someone who isn't? How many trans people do you know personally? I know dozens, who in turn know dozens more. Sorry, but anti-trans activism does exist, I'm not just making it up for the sake of it. You can find out for yourself if you look with an open mind. Shirley 678 may be in the same fab category as me, but that's as far as it goes. She's a transvestite who doesn't really understand trans people any better than you do. " I'm shocked at how directly judgemental you are after accusing me of it when in no way was I being judgemental, but rather pointing out a clear observation. | |||
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"It's interesting that you both from the same community have complete opposing views. This makes it more interesting to hear the arguments as opposed to those who aren't and have no personal experience. Implying that it's some conspiracy and pointing the finger doesn't help the discussion. All it does is exposes bitterness or hatred that's there. This won't help in the debate in anyway. I'm genuinely interest in your statement that most know who they are preteens. I do find this hard to believe as most if not all kids face struggles of Identity at sometime some even past their teens. For me I think that people know how they are from early on, so most boys or girls know that they are a boy or girl because they just are. The issue with gender identity is that for me at least, I knew I was a girl from an early age, but society told me I wasn't and couldn't be, because genetically I am male. So despite me knowing I am inherently female I had to conform to the expectation of being male, much to the detriment of my long term mental health. There is some evidence to suggest that being transgender is "hard wired" in some people's brains, therefore have female persona or views about themselves even prior to being born. I wish I had had the option to express who I really am from an early age. But glad that I am finally me. " Thank you for sharing that in the way you've done it. I've found some are very aggressive with responding and if I'm honest I understand why but it doesn't help others trying to understand them and only creates negativity towards them and people won't hear them out. I've often thought about 'how one knows so young' as one hears. Cognitive development is something which takes years to develop fully and often in males it's normally still not fully developed well into their 20s. For this reason I've found it hard to comprehend this understanding at such a young age by some. | |||
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" Cognitive development is something which takes years to develop fully and often in males it's normally still not fully developed well into their 20s. For this reason I've found it hard to comprehend this understanding at such a young age by some." How old were you when you knew you were male? How much psychological evaluation did you need to have your gender identity accepted? | |||
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"Worry about it and I am not somebody who has any issues with anybody's sexuality or gender. But for me, I struggle somewhat with medical changes, physical or not, when imo what we define as male and female, for the most part are social constructs. If we didn't have clothing separated by gender, etc, if we didn't have material objects related to gender, would people want medical processes to change them permanently to match a gender? Sometimes I feel that we should accept all people as they are born, but I appreciate that my lived experience means I don't understand. But I feel we're forcing people to fit within a social structure. Rather than focusing the social structure around us, and our uniqueness." I think someone who tells you who they are should be believed. I've felt female since I can remember. Or at least not male. Is that a construct? Probably. But that's been accepted because an F was put on my birth certificate. These kids have extensive psychological evaluation to determine that they don't feel as is put on their birth certificate. That they're distressed by the gender they've been assigned. Not as a passing stage and not because of mental illness (mental illness will get you excluded). We should accept people as they are. As who they are. | |||
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" Cognitive development is something which takes years to develop fully and often in males it's normally still not fully developed well into their 20s. For this reason I've found it hard to comprehend this understanding at such a young age by some. How old were you when you knew you were male? How much psychological evaluation did you need to have your gender identity accepted?" I don't recall ever thinking about it. I had clear role models which was for me probably the best start in my development. | |||
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" Cognitive development is something which takes years to develop fully and often in males it's normally still not fully developed well into their 20s. For this reason I've found it hard to comprehend this understanding at such a young age by some. How old were you when you knew you were male? How much psychological evaluation did you need to have your gender identity accepted? I don't recall ever thinking about it. I had clear role models which was for me probably the best start in my development." Why do you think these children don't know who they are when they undergo extensive psychological evaluation to find that out, but you know because you know? | |||
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"I wonder what the percentage of people who have transitioned wish to have had the chance to have done it earlier. I suspect a lot which is why this is so important. Hormones especially ones like Testosterone really impact the body in ways that’s hard to reverse. "  | |||
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"Worry about it and I am not somebody who has any issues with anybody's sexuality or gender. But for me, I struggle somewhat with medical changes, physical or not, when imo what we define as male and female, for the most part are social constructs. If we didn't have clothing separated by gender, etc, if we didn't have material objects related to gender, would people want medical processes to change them permanently to match a gender? Sometimes I feel that we should accept all people as they are born, but I appreciate that my lived experience means I don't understand. But I feel we're forcing people to fit within a social structure. Rather than focusing the social structure around us, and our uniqueness. I think someone who tells you who they are should be believed. I've felt female since I can remember. Or at least not male. Is that a construct? Probably. But that's been accepted because an F was put on my birth certificate. These kids have extensive psychological evaluation to determine that they don't feel as is put on their birth certificate. That they're distressed by the gender they've been assigned. Not as a passing stage and not because of mental illness (mental illness will get you excluded). We should accept people as they are. As who they are." I worry that people are changing to fit in, to be accepted into a society, social structure which is itself man-made. I completely understand, as a brown person, I see people who are brown do similar to fit into white majority society. I'm not questioning anybody's decisions, just being honest with my concern. | |||
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"Worry about it and I am not somebody who has any issues with anybody's sexuality or gender. But for me, I struggle somewhat with medical changes, physical or not, when imo what we define as male and female, for the most part are social constructs. If we didn't have clothing separated by gender, etc, if we didn't have material objects related to gender, would people want medical processes to change them permanently to match a gender? Sometimes I feel that we should accept all people as they are born, but I appreciate that my lived experience means I don't understand. But I feel we're forcing people to fit within a social structure. Rather than focusing the social structure around us, and our uniqueness. I think someone who tells you who they are should be believed. I've felt female since I can remember. Or at least not male. Is that a construct? Probably. But that's been accepted because an F was put on my birth certificate. These kids have extensive psychological evaluation to determine that they don't feel as is put on their birth certificate. That they're distressed by the gender they've been assigned. Not as a passing stage and not because of mental illness (mental illness will get you excluded). We should accept people as they are. As who they are. I worry that people are changing to fit in, to be accepted into a society, social structure which is itself man-made. I completely understand, as a brown person, I see people who are brown do similar to fit into white majority society. I'm not questioning anybody's decisions, just being honest with my concern." Dont think that's the case as they find it hard to live the lie so much so they harm themselves! Unless u have walked in the shoes like anything u cant understand it! I dont I really try to so much when my daughter first told me for the first few weeks or so I wanted to say just try and live as u was born will b so much easier! I never said that of course and feel bad for thinking that ! But to see her now a happy young woman I could not b more proud of the journey she has made ! X | |||
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" I worry that people are changing to fit in, to be accepted into a society, social structure which is itself man-made. I completely understand, as a brown person, I see people who are brown do similar to fit into white majority society. I'm not questioning anybody's decisions, just being honest with my concern." I don't understand how you get to that. They struggle for years, suffer enormous disadvantage, prejudice, mental illness, and have to jump through incredible hoops to get treatment. Isn't trying to fit in... the opposite of that? Who'd go through all that shit for fashion? | |||
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" Cognitive development is something which takes years to develop fully and often in males it's normally still not fully developed well into their 20s. For this reason I've found it hard to comprehend this understanding at such a young age by some. How old were you when you knew you were male? How much psychological evaluation did you need to have your gender identity accepted? I don't recall ever thinking about it. I had clear role models which was for me probably the best start in my development. Why do you think these children don't know who they are when they undergo extensive psychological evaluation to find that out, but you know because you know?" Tell me what you think? | |||
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" Cognitive development is something which takes years to develop fully and often in males it's normally still not fully developed well into their 20s. For this reason I've found it hard to comprehend this understanding at such a young age by some. How old were you when you knew you were male? How much psychological evaluation did you need to have your gender identity accepted? I don't recall ever thinking about it. I had clear role models which was for me probably the best start in my development. Why do you think these children don't know who they are when they undergo extensive psychological evaluation to find that out, but you know because you know? Tell me what you think?" I think this is cis privilege. We get to be who we are and want to be, but we resist others having the right to have the same. If we can accept a toddler saying "I'm a girl!" when they have an F on their birth certificate, why can't we accept an older child (with an F on his birth certificate) saying "I'm a boy" after a huge amount of psychological evaluation? If turning physically into a woman will harm this boy psychologically, preventing it is humane and just. I think people with much harder conservative agendas are using this as a wedge because trans people are particularly stigmatised. | |||
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" I worry that people are changing to fit in, to be accepted into a society, social structure which is itself man-made. I completely understand, as a brown person, I see people who are brown do similar to fit into white majority society. I'm not questioning anybody's decisions, just being honest with my concern. I don't understand how you get to that. They struggle for years, suffer enormous disadvantage, prejudice, mental illness, and have to jump through incredible hoops to get treatment. Isn't trying to fit in... the opposite of that? Who'd go through all that shit for fashion?" If the prejudice didn't exist, if people were accepted for who they are, would they need treatment? Would they have mental health issues? | |||
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" I worry that people are changing to fit in, to be accepted into a society, social structure which is itself man-made. I completely understand, as a brown person, I see people who are brown do similar to fit into white majority society. I'm not questioning anybody's decisions, just being honest with my concern. I don't understand how you get to that. They struggle for years, suffer enormous disadvantage, prejudice, mental illness, and have to jump through incredible hoops to get treatment. Isn't trying to fit in... the opposite of that? Who'd go through all that shit for fashion? If the prejudice didn't exist, if people were accepted for who they are, would they need treatment? Would they have mental health issues?" Yes. Because they feel male in female bodies, or vice versa. They have something that needs correcting. The prejudice not existing would make it a lot easier, but it'd still need correcting. | |||
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" Cognitive development is something which takes years to develop fully and often in males it's normally still not fully developed well into their 20s. For this reason I've found it hard to comprehend this understanding at such a young age by some. How old were you when you knew you were male? How much psychological evaluation did you need to have your gender identity accepted? I don't recall ever thinking about it. I had clear role models which was for me probably the best start in my development. Why do you think these children don't know who they are when they undergo extensive psychological evaluation to find that out, but you know because you know? Tell me what you think? I think this is cis privilege. We get to be who we are and want to be, but we resist others having the right to have the same. If we can accept a toddler saying "I'm a girl!" when they have an F on their birth certificate, why can't we accept an older child (with an F on his birth certificate) saying "I'm a boy" after a huge amount of psychological evaluation? If turning physically into a woman will harm this boy psychologically, preventing it is humane and just. I think people with much harder conservative agendas are using this as a wedge because trans people are particularly stigmatised. " Associating behaviour with gender constructs we have created isn't natural. When we say things like "you sound like a girl" that is insane really when you think about it. Stereotypes types help us navigate the complexity of existing without having to spending hours making decisions. The stereotype types we have of bears for instances, helped us socially know to avoid them lmao, as well as the massive claws! Lol | |||
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" I worry that people are changing to fit in, to be accepted into a society, social structure which is itself man-made. I completely understand, as a brown person, I see people who are brown do similar to fit into white majority society. I'm not questioning anybody's decisions, just being honest with my concern. I don't understand how you get to that. They struggle for years, suffer enormous disadvantage, prejudice, mental illness, and have to jump through incredible hoops to get treatment. Isn't trying to fit in... the opposite of that? Who'd go through all that shit for fashion? If the prejudice didn't exist, if people were accepted for who they are, would they need treatment? Would they have mental health issues? Yes. Because they feel male in female bodies, or vice versa. They have something that needs correcting. The prejudice not existing would make it a lot easier, but it'd still need correcting." So remove the prejudice. It's easier. What if we also didn't have gender specific clothing, as well as shame around sexuality? If there wasn't gender specific clothing, and we didn't have hang ups around the genitalia of your lover, what would people change? | |||
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" Cognitive development is something which takes years to develop fully and often in males it's normally still not fully developed well into their 20s. For this reason I've found it hard to comprehend this understanding at such a young age by some. How old were you when you knew you were male? How much psychological evaluation did you need to have your gender identity accepted? I don't recall ever thinking about it. I had clear role models which was for me probably the best start in my development. Why do you think these children don't know who they are when they undergo extensive psychological evaluation to find that out, but you know because you know? Tell me what you think? I think this is cis privilege. We get to be who we are and want to be, but we resist others having the right to have the same. If we can accept a toddler saying "I'm a girl!" when they have an F on their birth certificate, why can't we accept an older child (with an F on his birth certificate) saying "I'm a boy" after a huge amount of psychological evaluation? If turning physically into a woman will harm this boy psychologically, preventing it is humane and just. I think people with much harder conservative agendas are using this as a wedge because trans people are particularly stigmatised. Associating behaviour with gender constructs we have created isn't natural. When we say things like "you sound like a girl" that is insane really when you think about it. Stereotypes types help us navigate the complexity of existing without having to spending hours making decisions. The stereotype types we have of bears for instances, helped us socially know to avoid them lmao, as well as the massive claws! Lol " Wtf does that even mean? Trans kids aren't allowed to know their own gender because bears are fkin dangerous? | |||
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" Associating behaviour with gender constructs we have created isn't natural. When we say things like "you sound like a girl" that is insane really when you think about it. Stereotypes types help us navigate the complexity of existing without having to spending hours making decisions. The stereotype types we have of bears for instances, helped us socially know to avoid them lmao, as well as the massive claws! Lol " I'm not associating behaviour with gender identity. I think gender constructs are bullshit. Inescapable, but bullshit. Someone who is psychologically distressed by growing into a body that does not match the innate sense of who they are should be helped. And not just by making society more tolerant. This isn't "boys are strong and girls are pretty". Different fight. This is, a male identified brain should have a male identified body. That male brain can have "feminine" performance all he likes. If he's a boy or a man, let's help him be a boy or man, not force him into a body that doesn't fit his brain. | |||
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" I worry that people are changing to fit in, to be accepted into a society, social structure which is itself man-made. I completely understand, as a brown person, I see people who are brown do similar to fit into white majority society. I'm not questioning anybody's decisions, just being honest with my concern. I don't understand how you get to that. They struggle for years, suffer enormous disadvantage, prejudice, mental illness, and have to jump through incredible hoops to get treatment. Isn't trying to fit in... the opposite of that? Who'd go through all that shit for fashion? If the prejudice didn't exist, if people were accepted for who they are, would they need treatment? Would they have mental health issues? Yes. Because they feel male in female bodies, or vice versa. They have something that needs correcting. The prejudice not existing would make it a lot easier, but it'd still need correcting. So remove the prejudice. It's easier. What if we also didn't have gender specific clothing, as well as shame around sexuality? If there wasn't gender specific clothing, and we didn't have hang ups around the genitalia of your lover, what would people change? " A lot, but you're making the wrong argument. The prejudice needs to go. True. These people have a medical problem which needs treatment. The prejudice and stereotypes around gender exacerbate it, but they don't make the medical problem go away. | |||
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" Associating behaviour with gender constructs we have created isn't natural. When we say things like "you sound like a girl" that is insane really when you think about it. Stereotypes types help us navigate the complexity of existing without having to spending hours making decisions. The stereotype types we have of bears for instances, helped us socially know to avoid them lmao, as well as the massive claws! Lol I'm not associating behaviour with gender identity. I think gender constructs are bullshit. Inescapable, but bullshit. Someone who is psychologically distressed by growing into a body that does not match the innate sense of who they are should be helped. And not just by making society more tolerant. This isn't "boys are strong and girls are pretty". Different fight. This is, a male identified brain should have a male identified body. That male brain can have "feminine" performance all he likes. If he's a boy or a man, let's help him be a boy or man, not force him into a body that doesn't fit his brain." Why shouldn't female brain in male body be acceptable? Once you remove all the constructs, you just have an unique person, and we're all unique. I'm not questioning anybody's choices, do what makes you happy and doesn't hurt anybody else, and I will support you 100%. | |||
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" I worry that people are changing to fit in, to be accepted into a society, social structure which is itself man-made. I completely understand, as a brown person, I see people who are brown do similar to fit into white majority society. I'm not questioning anybody's decisions, just being honest with my concern. I don't understand how you get to that. They struggle for years, suffer enormous disadvantage, prejudice, mental illness, and have to jump through incredible hoops to get treatment. Isn't trying to fit in... the opposite of that? Who'd go through all that shit for fashion? If the prejudice didn't exist, if people were accepted for who they are, would they need treatment? Would they have mental health issues?" If prejudice didn't exist it would be better for a whole bunch of people in also sorts of different minority groups who get shat upon daily. So how about stopping being prejudiced? | |||
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" I worry that people are changing to fit in, to be accepted into a society, social structure which is itself man-made. I completely understand, as a brown person, I see people who are brown do similar to fit into white majority society. I'm not questioning anybody's decisions, just being honest with my concern. I don't understand how you get to that. They struggle for years, suffer enormous disadvantage, prejudice, mental illness, and have to jump through incredible hoops to get treatment. Isn't trying to fit in... the opposite of that? Who'd go through all that shit for fashion? If the prejudice didn't exist, if people were accepted for who they are, would they need treatment? Would they have mental health issues? If prejudice didn't exist it would be better for a whole bunch of people in also sorts of different minority groups who get shat upon daily. So how about stopping being prejudiced? " Education. | |||
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" Why shouldn't female brain in male body be acceptable? Once you remove all the constructs, you just have an unique person, and we're all unique. I'm not questioning anybody's choices, do what makes you happy and doesn't hurt anybody else, and I will support you 100%." Because it causes her profound psychological suffering. Remove the constructs. Fuck the patriarchy. It's all bullshit. But also give people the care they need to flourish as the people they are. We can't just say, oh, gender doesn't exist, so neither do your struggles (even if society will accept dismantling of gender norms. And, you know, have fun with that because they won't  )
Gender is a construct.
Gender performance is a construct.
It's all culturally contingent.
People are extremely prejudiced about trans people.
All true!
People suffer extreme psychological distress when the gender in their head does not match their anatomy. Remove the constructs and the prejudices... and this is still true and they still need treatment.
It's not far off "remove the stigma from having cancer and we don't have to treat cancer anymore". It's nonsense. | |||
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"Also, I realise I'm over simplifying a complex issue to make my point." I feel like you're missing the point entirely. These people need medical care and unfucking society does not change that | |||
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"Also, I realise I'm over simplifying a complex issue to make my point. I feel like you're missing the point entirely. These people need medical care and unfucking society does not change that " It does if the fucked society is the cause of their need for medical care. And imo society is the cause of the medical issues. Change gender to race, people face prejudice for their race. If somebody who is born brown, but believes they're white, do we try to alter their appearance? | |||
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"At the risk of generating controversy, as this thread seems to be provoking a lot of feeling and tension. To quote "who would go through this for fashion?" Answer no one, and the gender clinics wouldn't start any medical intervention if that were the case. In fact it's incredibly difficult to get GIC's to start medical transition and currently 3/4 year waiting lists for first appointment. It isn't a choice, it just isn't to be trans you are or you aren't, within that there are various degrees of being trans, dependant on the level of the individuals dysphoria, much like varying levels of people's like or dislike of their body shape. Therefore some are happy to put up with what they have others can't abide their body and so do something about it, whether that's hitting the gym to loose weight, face lift, or in case of trans people to change to have the physical attributes of the sex they identify with. Gender dysphoria is also no longer on the WHO list of mental health disorders as it is realised it is not something that can be "cured" by councilling. In many cultures around the world a "third" gender is recognised and revered/accepted as just being part of human life and has been for centuries. Nature isn't always as binary to just make female behaviour or roles why are humans any different? It always amazes me that the press focus on the tiny number of people who de-transition as opposed to the majority who are quite happy and live their lives as they need. "
If we're going to talk about medical procedures that are regretted, plastic surgery is probably a bigger thing. Or tattoos (procedure ish). Ban them long before we stop helping people with gender dysphoria. Let people be who they are. Appropriate safeguards exist.
Solidarity. Always. | |||
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"At the risk of generating controversy, as this thread seems to be provoking a lot of feeling and tension. To quote "who would go through this for fashion?" Answer no one, and the gender clinics wouldn't start any medical intervention if that were the case. In fact it's incredibly difficult to get GIC's to start medical transition and currently 3/4 year waiting lists for first appointment. It isn't a choice, it just isn't to be trans you are or you aren't, within that there are various degrees of being trans, dependant on the level of the individuals dysphoria, much like varying levels of people's like or dislike of their body shape. Therefore some are happy to put up with what they have others can't abide their body and so do something about it, whether that's hitting the gym to loose weight, face lift, or in case of trans people to change to have the physical attributes of the sex they identify with. Gender dysphoria is also no longer on the WHO list of mental health disorders as it is realised it is not something that can be "cured" by councilling. In many cultures around the world a "third" gender is recognised and revered/accepted as just being part of human life and has been for centuries. Nature isn't always as binary to just make female behaviour or roles why are humans any different? It always amazes me that the press focus on the tiny number of people who de-transition as opposed to the majority who are quite happy and live their lives as they need." The reduction of my opinion to "doing it for fashion" was a drastic misunderstanding of my point. | |||
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"Also, I realise I'm over simplifying a complex issue to make my point. I feel like you're missing the point entirely. These people need medical care and unfucking society does not change that It does if the fucked society is the cause of their need for medical care. And imo society is the cause of the medical issues. Change gender to race, people face prejudice for their race. If somebody who is born brown, but believes they're white, do we try to alter their appearance? " It's not the same as race. At all. You are missing the point, wilfully or otherwise. I've set out why it's different and you're just going around in circles. I'm not bothering anymore. | |||
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"Also, I realise I'm over simplifying a complex issue to make my point. I feel like you're missing the point entirely. These people need medical care and unfucking society does not change that It does if the fucked society is the cause of their need for medical care. And imo society is the cause of the medical issues. Change gender to race, people face prejudice for their race. If somebody who is born brown, but believes they're white, do we try to alter their appearance? It's not the same as race. At all. You are missing the point, wilfully or otherwise. I've set out why it's different and you're just going around in circles. I'm not bothering anymore." Why is it not the same as race? Race influences how you interact with the world around you, which influences the person you become. | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately " Gender dysphoria was reclassified by the World Health Organisation in May 2019 from mental health to being sexual health. Much the same as being Homosexual was a mental health disorder and reclassified in the 90's Therefore shouldn't gender dysphoria be treated in the same way as homosexuality? | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately " My understanding is they have proven it isn't a mental health issue, it is literally a different brain make up. These people aren't "ill", they're entirely natural but don't fit into our idiotic social binary understanding of people. | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately " I can't find figures for the same year immediately, but the 2018/9 budget for NHS mental health services was £12.2 billion and gender dysphoria in 2015 was £17 million. That's a wildly disingenuous argument (I say this as someone who's faced catastrophic waiting times for NHS mental health services to boot )
Gender dysphoria is no longer recognised as a mental health disorder.
Please don't spread lies. | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately I can't find figures for the same year immediately, but the 2018/9 budget for NHS mental health services was £12.2 billion and gender dysphoria in 2015 was £17 million. That's a wildly disingenuous argument (I say this as someone who's faced catastrophic waiting times for NHS mental health services to boot )
Gender dysphoria is no longer recognised as a mental health disorder.
Please don't spread lies."Yes, it is classed as a mental disorder, but not treated as such. The clue is in the name of the condition. If it is not classed as a mental condition, it sure needs renaming then and if not then what is it? | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately I can't find figures for the same year immediately, but the 2018/9 budget for NHS mental health services was £12.2 billion and gender dysphoria in 2015 was £17 million. That's a wildly disingenuous argument (I say this as someone who's faced catastrophic waiting times for NHS mental health services to boot )
Gender dysphoria is no longer recognised as a mental health disorder.
Please don't spread lies.
Yes, it is classed as a mental disorder, but not treated as such.
The clue is in the name of the condition. If it is not classed as a mental condition, it sure needs renaming then and if not then what is it?
"The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps. | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately I can't find figures for the same year immediately, but the 2018/9 budget for NHS mental health services was £12.2 billion and gender dysphoria in 2015 was £17 million. That's a wildly disingenuous argument (I say this as someone who's faced catastrophic waiting times for NHS mental health services to boot )
Gender dysphoria is no longer recognised as a mental health disorder.
Please don't spread lies.
Yes, it is classed as a mental disorder, but not treated as such.
The clue is in the name of the condition. If it is not classed as a mental condition, it sure needs renaming then and if not then what is it?
"Like I say reclassified under sexual health. And yes it needs to be renamed | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately I can't find figures for the same year immediately, but the 2018/9 budget for NHS mental health services was £12.2 billion and gender dysphoria in 2015 was £17 million. That's a wildly disingenuous argument (I say this as someone who's faced catastrophic waiting times for NHS mental health services to boot )
Gender dysphoria is no longer recognised as a mental health disorder.
Please don't spread lies.
Yes, it is classed as a mental disorder, but not treated as such.
The clue is in the name of the condition. If it is not classed as a mental condition, it sure needs renaming then and if not then what is it?
"It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? " Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness. | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately I can't find figures for the same year immediately, but the 2018/9 budget for NHS mental health services was £12.2 billion and gender dysphoria in 2015 was £17 million. That's a wildly disingenuous argument (I say this as someone who's faced catastrophic waiting times for NHS mental health services to boot )
Gender dysphoria is no longer recognised as a mental health disorder.
Please don't spread lies.
Yes, it is classed as a mental disorder, but not treated as such.
The clue is in the name of the condition. If it is not classed as a mental condition, it sure needs renaming then and if not then what is it?
The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps."Well, you've educated me on that now | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness." I know someone who went through it years ago when it was seen as a mental health illness by some in the professional field, they very nearly committed suicide.. | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness. I know someone who went through it years ago when it was seen as a mental health illness by some in the professional field, they very nearly committed suicide.. " The self harm and attempted/completed suicide rates among trans people is enormous. We have so much work to do. | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness. I know someone who went through it years ago when it was seen as a mental health illness by some in the professional field, they very nearly committed suicide.. " I was simply stating my thoughts and I should have read up more as I was not aware it was reclassified. Not starting an argument at all. But in my uneducated opinion it should be treated appropriately without prescription hormones to kids. Again, it is my opinion only as the closest I got to any medical qualification is that I was a combat medic in the army. | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness. I know someone who went through it years ago when it was seen as a mental health illness by some in the professional field, they very nearly committed suicide.. The self harm and attempted/completed suicide rates among trans people is enormous. We have so much work to do."
The balance between mental health funding and general health needs addressing too.. | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness. I know someone who went through it years ago when it was seen as a mental health illness by some in the professional field, they very nearly committed suicide.. The self harm and attempted/completed suicide rates among trans people is enormous. We have so much work to do.
The balance between mental health funding and general health needs addressing too.."Oh definitely | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness. I know someone who went through it years ago when it was seen as a mental health illness by some in the professional field, they very nearly committed suicide.. The self harm and attempted/completed suicide rates among trans people is enormous. We have so much work to do." Something like 40-50% of trans people by comparison with 10% thereabouts of the rest of the population for suicide attempts. Largely brought about the lack of support or understanding in the general population. | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness. I know someone who went through it years ago when it was seen as a mental health illness by some in the professional field, they very nearly committed suicide.. The self harm and attempted/completed suicide rates among trans people is enormous. We have so much work to do. Something like 40-50% of trans people by comparison with 10% thereabouts of the rest of the population for suicide attempts. Largely brought about the lack of support or understanding in the general population. " I stand with you. | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness. I know someone who went through it years ago when it was seen as a mental health illness by some in the professional field, they very nearly committed suicide.. I was simply stating my thoughts and I should have read up more as I was not aware it was reclassified. Not starting an argument at all. But in my uneducated opinion it should be treated appropriately without prescription hormones to kids. Again, it is my opinion only as the closest I got to any medical qualification is that I was a combat medic in the army." Life gives us experiences and we form opinions upon them so no worries mate.. It's like anything when society is learning how to help those etc in that position and we've moved on a lot from chucking people in asylums and yes there is a debate being had I believe within the sectors that are involved in this and the hormone therapy is part of that.. | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness. I know someone who went through it years ago when it was seen as a mental health illness by some in the professional field, they very nearly committed suicide.. The self harm and attempted/completed suicide rates among trans people is enormous. We have so much work to do. Something like 40-50% of trans people by comparison with 10% thereabouts of the rest of the population for suicide attempts. Largely brought about the lack of support or understanding in the general population. " This.. | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately I can't find figures for the same year immediately, but the 2018/9 budget for NHS mental health services was £12.2 billion and gender dysphoria in 2015 was £17 million. That's a wildly disingenuous argument (I say this as someone who's faced catastrophic waiting times for NHS mental health services to boot )
Gender dysphoria is no longer recognised as a mental health disorder.
Please don't spread lies.
Yes, it is classed as a mental disorder, but not treated as such.
The clue is in the name of the condition. If it is not classed as a mental condition, it sure needs renaming then and if not then what is it?
The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps."Why did they remove it? Was it due to pressure from LGBQT groups or because of sound medical reasons? | |||
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" Why did they remove it? Was it due to pressure from LGBQT groups or because of sound medical reasons?" Not a clue. I'm sure there are answers online if you want to look for them, though. | |||
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"The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps. Why did they remove it? Was it due to pressure from LGBQT groups or because of sound medical reasons?" Same reason they removed homosexuality - it's not a disorder. | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness. I know someone who went through it years ago when it was seen as a mental health illness by some in the professional field, they very nearly committed suicide.. I was simply stating my thoughts and I should have read up more as I was not aware it was reclassified. Not starting an argument at all. But in my uneducated opinion it should be treated appropriately without prescription hormones to kids. Again, it is my opinion only as the closest I got to any medical qualification is that I was a combat medic in the army." I appreciate it's not starting an argument, we are having open discussion and information sharing. Could I pose this question, is it appropriate to withhold medical treatment from young people who need it? And if that treatment was withheld potentially causing huge distress later in life having not received the appropriate treatment is that not also a bad thing? It is a conundrum | |||
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"The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps. Why did they remove it? Was it due to pressure from LGBQT groups or because of sound medical reasons? Same reason they removed homosexuality - it's not a disorder." | |||
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"The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps. Why did they remove it? Was it due to pressure from LGBQT groups or because of sound medical reasons? Same reason they removed homosexuality - it's not a disorder." Have you got a link to the reasons? All I can find is this quote on the WHO site........... "So in order to reduce the stigma, while also ensuring access to necessary health interventions, this was placed in a different chapter." | |||
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"I wonder what the percentage of people who have transitioned wish to have had the chance to have done it earlier. I suspect a lot which is why this is so important. Hormones especially ones like Testosterone really impact the body in ways that’s hard to reverse. " I wish I could have had blockers to avert the ordeal I went through when puberty hit me. I knew I was in the wrong group when I was told I was a boy. I knew around 6 or 7 years old. Puberty really was an ordeal for me. I wouldn’t have been ready for surgery then but I did not want the things to happen to me that puberty did. The irreversible damage as it ripped through me. I understand some people change their minds. Regret the choices they made when they were younger. It’s a tiny number who do though. Some people regret having an abortion later on in life. It’s a poor argument to deny every woman an abortion though. | |||
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"The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps. Why did they remove it? Was it due to pressure from LGBQT groups or because of sound medical reasons? Same reason they removed homosexuality - it's not a disorder. Have you got a link to the reasons? All I can find is this quote on the WHO site........... "So in order to reduce the stigma, while also ensuring access to necessary health interventions, this was placed in a different chapter."" Are you asking for the corpus of evidence considered by the WHO when revising the ICD? | |||
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"I wonder what the percentage of people who have transitioned wish to have had the chance to have done it earlier. I suspect a lot which is why this is so important. Hormones especially ones like Testosterone really impact the body in ways that’s hard to reverse. I wish I could have had blockers to avert the ordeal I went through when puberty hit me. I knew I was in the wrong group when I was told I was a boy. I knew around 6 or 7 years old. Puberty really was an ordeal for me. I wouldn’t have been ready for surgery then but I did not want the things to happen to me that puberty did. The irreversible damage as it ripped through me. I understand some people change their minds. Regret the choices they made when they were younger. It’s a tiny number who do though. Some people regret having an abortion later on in life. It’s a poor argument to deny every woman an abortion though. " Hugs. Huge hugs | |||
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" It is not a mental health disorder.. As for stating it should be what are your professional qualifications that enable you to make that claim..? Over and above leading global health bodies to boot. We are in the presence of greatness. I know someone who went through it years ago when it was seen as a mental health illness by some in the professional field, they very nearly committed suicide.. " I knew people who did commit suicide. Also one person who was almost certainly murdered but the police wrote it off as accidental. | |||
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"The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps. Why did they remove it? Was it due to pressure from LGBQT groups or because of sound medical reasons? Same reason they removed homosexuality - it's not a disorder. Have you got a link to the reasons? All I can find is this quote on the WHO site........... "So in order to reduce the stigma, while also ensuring access to necessary health interventions, this was placed in a different chapter."" One article It's far past time for governments like Japan, or the dozens in Europe that have similar laws, to change them," Knight said. "Trans people shouldn't be subjected to mandatory diagnoses or medical procedures just to get their basic rights." Globally, both the ICD and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-V) are used to diagnose patients. The American Psychiatric Association last revised the DSM in 2012 to remove the term "gender identity disorder" from the manual and add the term "gender dysphoria." Now, the ICD is making a similar change. "Reclassifying trans and gender diverse people in ICD-11 will make a big difference," Mauro Cabral Grinspan, activist and executive director of GATE, told CBS News Wednesday. "It basically means that trans and gender diverse people stop being considered mentally disordered just because of who we are — an assertion that was proven to be not only arbitrary and unfair, but also incompatible with WHO scientific standards." | |||
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"The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps. Why did they remove it? Was it due to pressure from LGBQT groups or because of sound medical reasons? Same reason they removed homosexuality - it's not a disorder." I'm guessing that's just an opinion and if so, then say so, but if not can you post a link. This is has false information starts and spreads much like some blond haired guy who tweets all the time. Genuinely want the link to the reason if anyone else can help. Thanks. | |||
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"The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps. Why did they remove it? Was it due to pressure from LGBQT groups or because of sound medical reasons? Same reason they removed homosexuality - it's not a disorder. I'm guessing that's just an opinion and if so, then say so, but if not can you post a link. This is has false information starts and spreads much like some blond haired guy who tweets all the time. Genuinely want the link to the reason if anyone else can help. Thanks." I'm pretty sure that the WHO and other global health organisations don't change their disease classifications for funsies  | |||
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"The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps. Why did they remove it? Was it due to pressure from LGBQT groups or because of sound medical reasons? Same reason they removed homosexuality - it's not a disorder. I'm guessing that's just an opinion and if so, then say so, but if not can you post a link. This is has false information starts and spreads much like some blond haired guy who tweets all the time. Genuinely want the link to the reason if anyone else can help. Thanks." Are you suggesting homosexuality is a disorder or I have misread that? | |||
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"The WHO removed it as a mental disorder in 2019. The NHS explicitly says it's not a mental disorder. Hope this helps. Why did they remove it? Was it due to pressure from LGBQT groups or because of sound medical reasons? Same reason they removed homosexuality - it's not a disorder. I'm guessing that's just an opinion and if so, then say so, but if not can you post a link. This is has false information starts and spreads much like some blond haired guy who tweets all the time. Genuinely want the link to the reason if anyone else can help. Thanks." Read DSM-V and ICD-11 for further info. Also recommend Trans Like Me by C.N Lester | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately " Ffs! Have you even read any of this thread? Please look up the relevant facts before commenting on a subject that you obviously know nothing about. Gender dysphoria is no longer classed as a mental disorder, and hormones are only prescribed to people under 18 in exceptional circumstances, and then only after a thorough psychological assessment (which means almost never). There is no wonder many of us get totally exasperated by having to explain ourselves again and again to people with preconceived ideas about trans people and our treatment, and then having everything we say ignored because some cis people think they know better than we do. Anyone who thinks that we go through what we do because it's trendy or fashionable, hasn't got a clue. Nobody would choose to be trans, because it's bloody hard and can be dangerous too. Trans people can lose jobs, friends, family and even their lives over this existence, and to have our stories constantly questioned and dismissed by people with no lived experience of being trans, is utterly galling and soul destroying. The stench of cis privilege and closed mindedness is all over this thread and It's so frustrating. If people come to me with an open mind I'm fully prepared to engage with them in a positive manner, but if they just seek to impose their judgement no matter what, with no intention of being educated on trans issues, then frankly they can just fuck off, because I'm sick of the same old shit time after time. I'll stick to those people who have an open mind and willingness to listen and understand, because there are a lot of them around and it's better for my mental health. | |||
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" Cognitive development is something which takes years to develop fully and often in males it's normally still not fully developed well into their 20s. For this reason I've found it hard to comprehend this understanding at such a young age by some. How old were you when you knew you were male? How much psychological evaluation did you need to have your gender identity accepted? I don't recall ever thinking about it. I had clear role models which was for me probably the best start in my development. Why do you think these children don't know who they are when they undergo extensive psychological evaluation to find that out, but you know because you know? Tell me what you think? I think this is cis privilege. We get to be who we are and want to be, but we resist others having the right to have the same. If we can accept a toddler saying "I'm a girl!" when they have an F on their birth certificate, why can't we accept an older child (with an F on his birth certificate) saying "I'm a boy" after a huge amount of psychological evaluation? If turning physically into a woman will harm this boy psychologically, preventing it is humane and just. I think people with much harder conservative agendas are using this as a wedge because trans people are particularly stigmatised. " I honestly don't see privilege but then I'm not to look for it and it's become a watered down cliché word now. I also am not looking for conspiracies either. However what I do see is genuine concerns about the long term damage on young people from both camps on this issue, both physically and psychologically and that's why there are differences in opinions. As far as agendas go there are clear agendas on both sides. It's easy to point fingers and often those pointing are doing so to deflect others looking at what they're up to. So it's unhelpful. There's a positive in all of this whether one agrees or not, whenever you have opposing views it helps to keep a balance and focus on whatever the issue concerned. | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately I can't find figures for the same year immediately, but the 2018/9 budget for NHS mental health services was £12.2 billion and gender dysphoria in 2015 was £17 million. That's a wildly disingenuous argument (I say this as someone who's faced catastrophic waiting times for NHS mental health services to boot )
Gender dysphoria is no longer recognised as a mental health disorder.
Please don't spread lies.
Yes, it is classed as a mental disorder, but not treated as such.
The clue is in the name of the condition. If it is not classed as a mental condition, it sure needs renaming then and if not then what is it?
"Yes there is a mental disorder associated with gender dysphoria. However it is not a disorder in those suffering gender dysphoria, it is a mental illness in all the transphobes that lose their shit about something that literally is nothing to do with them and has absolutely no impact upon their lives. | |||
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(Then go away and consider why, of all the changes in all the 11 ICD publications, you specifically want to see the evidence basis for this one) | |||
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"If you want to read the publication from the Working Group on Sexual Disorders and Sexual Health, which made the recommendations (on a bunch of stuff, but also on gender identity disorders") then you can read it here: https://doi.org/10.1002/wps.20354 Note that it references 123 other texts. I hope that this serves as sufficient "evidence" for anyone asking for any, and you won't ask for more until you've read it all
(Then go away and consider why, of all the changes in all the 11 ICD publications, you specifically want to see the evidence basis for this one)" | |||
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" Cognitive development is something which takes years to develop fully and often in males it's normally still not fully developed well into their 20s. For this reason I've found it hard to comprehend this understanding at such a young age by some. How old were you when you knew you were male? How much psychological evaluation did you need to have your gender identity accepted? I don't recall ever thinking about it. I had clear role models which was for me probably the best start in my development. Why do you think these children don't know who they are when they undergo extensive psychological evaluation to find that out, but you know because you know? Tell me what you think? I think this is cis privilege. We get to be who we are and want to be, but we resist others having the right to have the same. If we can accept a toddler saying "I'm a girl!" when they have an F on their birth certificate, why can't we accept an older child (with an F on his birth certificate) saying "I'm a boy" after a huge amount of psychological evaluation? If turning physically into a woman will harm this boy psychologically, preventing it is humane and just. I think people with much harder conservative agendas are using this as a wedge because trans people are particularly stigmatised. I honestly don't see privilege but then I'm not to look for it and it's become a watered down cliché word now. I also am not looking for conspiracies either. However what I do see is genuine concerns about the long term damage on young people from both camps on this issue, both physically and psychologically and that's why there are differences in opinions. As far as agendas go there are clear agendas on both sides. It's easy to point fingers and often those pointing are doing so to deflect others looking at what they're up to. So it's unhelpful. There's a positive in all of this whether one agrees or not, whenever you have opposing views it helps to keep a balance and focus on whatever the issue concerned." The ones that say "what about the children" absolutely do not give a flying fuck about the children. They would put children through a mincing machine if it helped them hate on trans people. | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately I can't find figures for the same year immediately, but the 2018/9 budget for NHS mental health services was £12.2 billion and gender dysphoria in 2015 was £17 million. That's a wildly disingenuous argument (I say this as someone who's faced catastrophic waiting times for NHS mental health services to boot )
Gender dysphoria is no longer recognised as a mental health disorder.
Please don't spread lies.
Yes, it is classed as a mental disorder, but not treated as such.
The clue is in the name of the condition. If it is not classed as a mental condition, it sure needs renaming then and if not then what is it?
Yes there is a mental disorder associated with gender dysphoria. However it is not a disorder in those suffering gender dysphoria, it is a mental illness in all the transphobes that lose their shit about something that literally is nothing to do with them and has absolutely no impact upon their lives.
" | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately Ffs! Have you even read any of this thread? Please look up the relevant facts before commenting on a subject that you obviously know nothing about. Gender dysphoria is no longer classed as a mental disorder, and hormones are only prescribed to people under 18 in exceptional circumstances, and then only after a thorough psychological assessment (which means almost never). There is no wonder many of us get totally exasperated by having to explain ourselves again and again to people with preconceived ideas about trans people and our treatment, and then having everything we say ignored because some cis people think they know better than we do. Anyone who thinks that we go through what we do because it's trendy or fashionable, hasn't got a clue. Nobody would choose to be trans, because it's bloody hard and can be dangerous too. Trans people can lose jobs, friends, family and even their lives over this existence, and to have our stories constantly questioned and dismissed by people with no lived experience of being trans, is utterly galling and soul destroying. The stench of cis privilege and closed mindedness is all over this thread and It's so frustrating. If people come to me with an open mind I'm fully prepared to engage with them in a positive manner, but if they just seek to impose their judgement no matter what, with no intention of being educated on trans issues, then frankly they can just fuck off, because I'm sick of the same old shit time after time. I'll stick to those people who have an open mind and willingness to listen and understand, because there are a lot of them around and it's better for my mental health." I’ve often thought it would have been easier to ‘just be gay’ I could have just said “I’m gay” and that would have pretty much been it. Some people wouldn’t have liked it. They wouldn’t have understood it but in general most people would have understood I fancied men not women. When I came out as trans, people had so many misconceptions about what that meant. Thought I ‘liked dressing up in women’s clothes’. That I’d snuck around dressing up for fun. I only put on female clothing when I was ready to reveal to people who I really was. Once I gave in fighting I started on a road that would cost me dearly. I’ve lost a daughter. Lost my job. Lost my wife. Losing my wife cost me 1/4 of a million, setting me back 20 years financially. Transitioning has cost me a fair few quid too as I’ve paid for everything myself. It’s taken me years to transition. It’s still taken me about three years less to do so than if I’d waited for the nhs. I’ve risked and lost plenty to just be me. I’ve been extremely close to taking my own life several times and I consider myself emotionally stronger than many people. I’m a parent and I hold the same protective concerns for young people that drive the knee jerk “they’re not old enough to decide”....... but I know how I felt and how sure I was from single figures. As a result I find it hard to make an argument to deny young people help. | |||
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"If you want to read the publication from the Working Group on Sexual Disorders and Sexual Health, which made the recommendations (on a bunch of stuff, but also on gender identity disorders") then you can read it here: https://doi.org/10.1002/wps.20354 Note that it references 123 other texts. I hope that this serves as sufficient "evidence" for anyone asking for any, and you won't ask for more until you've read it all
(Then go away and consider why, of all the changes in all the 11 ICD publications, you specifically want to see the evidence basis for this one)
"Yes yes yes | |||
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"I wish that the medical profession would spend more time on mental health conditions in general and treat people appropriately for their conditions instead of giving out hormone treatments to children until they are 18. And yes, gender dysphoria is classed as a mental disorder and should be treated as such. Saying that, I definitely DO NOT say it is wrong to feel that way etc. Just think it should be treated appropriately Ffs! Have you even read any of this thread? Please look up the relevant facts before commenting on a subject that you obviously know nothing about. Gender dysphoria is no longer classed as a mental disorder, and hormones are only prescribed to people under 18 in exceptional circumstances, and then only after a thorough psychological assessment (which means almost never). There is no wonder many of us get totally exasperated by having to explain ourselves again and again to people with preconceived ideas about trans people and our treatment, and then having everything we say ignored because some cis people think they know better than we do. Anyone who thinks that we go through what we do because it's trendy or fashionable, hasn't got a clue. Nobody would choose to be trans, because it's bloody hard and can be dangerous too. Trans people can lose jobs, friends, family and even their lives over this existence, and to have our stories constantly questioned and dismissed by people with no lived experience of being trans, is utterly galling and soul destroying. The stench of cis privilege and closed mindedness is all over this thread and It's so frustrating. If people come to me with an open mind I'm fully prepared to engage with them in a positive manner, but if they just seek to impose their judgement no matter what, with no intention of being educated on trans issues, then frankly they can just fuck off, because I'm sick of the same old shit time after time. I'll stick to those people who have an open mind and willingness to listen and understand, because there are a lot of them around and it's better for my mental health. I’ve often thought it would have been easier to ‘just be gay’ I could have just said “I’m gay” and that would have pretty much been it. Some people wouldn’t have liked it. They wouldn’t have understood it but in general most people would have understood I fancied men not women. When I came out as trans, people had so many misconceptions about what that meant. Thought I ‘liked dressing up in women’s clothes’. That I’d snuck around dressing up for fun. I only put on female clothing when I was ready to reveal to people who I really was. Once I gave in fighting I started on a road that would cost me dearly. I’ve lost a daughter. Lost my job. Lost my wife. Losing my wife cost me 1/4 of a million, setting me back 20 years financially. Transitioning has cost me a fair few quid too as I’ve paid for everything myself. It’s taken me years to transition. It’s still taken me about three years less to do so than if I’d waited for the nhs. I’ve risked and lost plenty to just be me. I’ve been extremely close to taking my own life several times and I consider myself emotionally stronger than many people. I’m a parent and I hold the same protective concerns for young people that drive the knee jerk “they’re not old enough to decide”....... but I know how I felt and how sure I was from single figures. As a result I find it hard to make an argument to deny young people help. " This is lived reality. This is our lives. Not the fucking fairy tales that the "gender criticals" make up. | |||
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"If you want to read the publication from the Working Group on Sexual Disorders and Sexual Health, which made the recommendations (on a bunch of stuff, but also on gender identity disorders") then you can read it here: https://doi.org/10.1002/wps.20354 Note that it references 123 other texts. I hope that this serves as sufficient "evidence" for anyone asking for any, and you won't ask for more until you've read it all
(Then go away and consider why, of all the changes in all the 11 ICD publications, you specifically want to see the evidence basis for this one)"Nicely shut down | |||
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"If you want to read the publication from the Working Group on Sexual Disorders and Sexual Health, which made the recommendations (on a bunch of stuff, but also on gender identity disorders") then you can read it here: https://doi.org/10.1002/wps.20354 Note that it references 123 other texts. I hope that this serves as sufficient "evidence" for anyone asking for any, and you won't ask for more until you've read it all
(Then go away and consider why, of all the changes in all the 11 ICD publications, you specifically want to see the evidence basis for this one)
Nicely shut down "You asked for sources. You got sources | |||
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" I’ve often thought it would have been easier to ‘just be gay’ I could have just said “I’m gay” and that would have pretty much been it. Some people wouldn’t have liked it. They wouldn’t have understood it but in general most people would have understood I fancied men not women. When I came out as trans, people had so many misconceptions about what that meant. Thought I ‘liked dressing up in women’s clothes’. That I’d snuck around dressing up for fun. I only put on female clothing when I was ready to reveal to people who I really was. Once I gave in fighting I started on a road that would cost me dearly. I’ve lost a daughter. Lost my job. Lost my wife. Losing my wife cost me 1/4 of a million, setting me back 20 years financially. Transitioning has cost me a fair few quid too as I’ve paid for everything myself. It’s taken me years to transition. It’s still taken me about three years less to do so than if I’d waited for the nhs. I’ve risked and lost plenty to just be me. I’ve been extremely close to taking my own life several times and I consider myself emotionally stronger than many people. I’m a parent and I hold the same protective concerns for young people that drive the knee jerk “they’re not old enough to decide”....... but I know how I felt and how sure I was from single figures. As a result I find it hard to make an argument to deny young people help. "  | |||
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"So the WHO still discourages change of sexual assignment pre puberty. As in the ICD-10, the diagnosis of Gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood cannot be assigned before the onset of puberty. The duration requirement is reduced from two years in ICD-10 to several months in ICD-11 It would seem they are very aware of the common issues of gender variants during this development stages of an individual. I'm guessing that there's big questions over efficacy and accuracy then of assigning gender pre puberty?" Buddy could you provide a link? Because this just looks like one man's opinion from here. | |||
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"So the WHO still discourages change of sexual assignment pre puberty. As in the ICD-10, the diagnosis of Gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood cannot be assigned before the onset of puberty. The duration requirement is reduced from two years in ICD-10 to several months in ICD-11 It would seem they are very aware of the common issues of gender variants during this development stages of an individual. I'm guessing that there's big questions over efficacy and accuracy then of assigning gender pre puberty? Buddy could you provide a link? Because this just looks like one man's opinion from here." I used your link and read through it. | |||
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"So the WHO still discourages change of sexual assignment pre puberty. As in the ICD-10, the diagnosis of Gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood cannot be assigned before the onset of puberty. The duration requirement is reduced from two years in ICD-10 to several months in ICD-11 It would seem they are very aware of the common issues of gender variants during this development stages of an individual. I'm guessing that there's big questions over efficacy and accuracy then of assigning gender pre puberty? Buddy could you provide a link? Because this just looks like one man's opinion from here. I used your link and read through it." Yes but you seem to think that people are undergoing gender reassignment pre-puberty. If that's the case then you should evidence it. | |||
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"So the WHO still discourages change of sexual assignment pre puberty. As in the ICD-10, the diagnosis of Gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood cannot be assigned before the onset of puberty. The duration requirement is reduced from two years in ICD-10 to several months in ICD-11 It would seem they are very aware of the common issues of gender variants during this development stages of an individual. I'm guessing that there's big questions over efficacy and accuracy then of assigning gender pre puberty? Buddy could you provide a link? Because this just looks like one man's opinion from here. I used your link and read through it." I thought you'd read it as you were very quick to post and think it was defacto answer to all questions related. Scroll down to sexual orientation section on the issues if you haven't the time to read the rest of it. | |||
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"So the WHO still discourages change of sexual assignment pre puberty. As in the ICD-10, the diagnosis of Gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood cannot be assigned before the onset of puberty. The duration requirement is reduced from two years in ICD-10 to several months in ICD-11 It would seem they are very aware of the common issues of gender variants during this development stages of an individual. I'm guessing that there's big questions over efficacy and accuracy then of assigning gender pre puberty? Buddy could you provide a link? Because this just looks like one man's opinion from here. I used your link and read through it. Yes but you seem to think that people are undergoing gender reassignment pre-puberty. If that's the case then you should evidence it." There have been a number of references to that in here and a few replying as such to some of my own questions. All in this thread | |||
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"So the WHO still discourages change of sexual assignment pre puberty. As in the ICD-10, the diagnosis of Gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood cannot be assigned before the onset of puberty. The duration requirement is reduced from two years in ICD-10 to several months in ICD-11 It would seem they are very aware of the common issues of gender variants during this development stages of an individual. I'm guessing that there's big questions over efficacy and accuracy then of assigning gender pre puberty?" We’re a long way from waiting to assign gender until we actually know a persons brain gender rather than basing it on genitalia. Puberty blockers buy time. They pause puberty so irreversible changes don’t happen before the young person has had chance to decide if they want interventions. | |||
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"So the WHO still discourages change of sexual assignment pre puberty. As in the ICD-10, the diagnosis of Gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood cannot be assigned before the onset of puberty. The duration requirement is reduced from two years in ICD-10 to several months in ICD-11 It would seem they are very aware of the common issues of gender variants during this development stages of an individual. I'm guessing that there's big questions over efficacy and accuracy then of assigning gender pre puberty? Buddy could you provide a link? Because this just looks like one man's opinion from here. I used your link and read through it. Yes but you seem to think that people are undergoing gender reassignment pre-puberty. If that's the case then you should evidence it. There have been a number of references to that in here and a few replying as such to some of my own questions. All in this thread " I don't see anyone advocating pre-pubescent gender reassignment. Could you quote or link to them? | |||
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"So the WHO still discourages change of sexual assignment pre puberty. As in the ICD-10, the diagnosis of Gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood cannot be assigned before the onset of puberty. The duration requirement is reduced from two years in ICD-10 to several months in ICD-11 It would seem they are very aware of the common issues of gender variants during this development stages of an individual. I'm guessing that there's big questions over efficacy and accuracy then of assigning gender pre puberty? Buddy could you provide a link? Because this just looks like one man's opinion from here. I used your link and read through it. Yes but you seem to think that people are undergoing gender reassignment pre-puberty. If that's the case then you should evidence it. There have been a number of references to that in here and a few replying as such to some of my own questions. All in this thread I don't see anyone advocating pre-pubescent gender reassignment. Could you quote or link to them?" Two in this group said they knew prepuberty and used it as an argument for gender reassignment. | |||
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"So the WHO still discourages change of sexual assignment pre puberty. As in the ICD-10, the diagnosis of Gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood cannot be assigned before the onset of puberty. The duration requirement is reduced from two years in ICD-10 to several months in ICD-11 It would seem they are very aware of the common issues of gender variants during this development stages of an individual. I'm guessing that there's big questions over efficacy and accuracy then of assigning gender pre puberty? Buddy could you provide a link? Because this just looks like one man's opinion from here. I used your link and read through it. Yes but you seem to think that people are undergoing gender reassignment pre-puberty. If that's the case then you should evidence it. There have been a number of references to that in here and a few replying as such to some of my own questions. All in this thread I don't see anyone advocating pre-pubescent gender reassignment. Could you quote or link to them? Two in this group said they knew prepuberty and used it as an argument for gender reassignment." I really don't think they have. Could you quote those two people? | |||
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"So the WHO still discourages change of sexual assignment pre puberty. As in the ICD-10, the diagnosis of Gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood cannot be assigned before the onset of puberty. The duration requirement is reduced from two years in ICD-10 to several months in ICD-11 It would seem they are very aware of the common issues of gender variants during this development stages of an individual. I'm guessing that there's big questions over efficacy and accuracy then of assigning gender pre puberty? Buddy could you provide a link? Because this just looks like one man's opinion from here. I used your link and read through it. Yes but you seem to think that people are undergoing gender reassignment pre-puberty. If that's the case then you should evidence it. There have been a number of references to that in here and a few replying as such to some of my own questions. All in this thread I don't see anyone advocating pre-pubescent gender reassignment. Could you quote or link to them? Two in this group said they knew prepuberty and used it as an argument for gender reassignment." Am I one of those you’re referring to? If so, please don’t misquote me. I did indeed know I was trans, although I didn’t know the name of it at the time, pre-puberty. However, I have not made an argument that gender reassignment should be considered before age 18. I have said that I think there should be puberty blockers available to pause puberty for those who need them. I didn’t say anything about criteria I felt should be met before they were supplied. I have thoughts on that too. | |||
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"So the WHO still discourages change of sexual assignment pre puberty. As in the ICD-10, the diagnosis of Gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood cannot be assigned before the onset of puberty. The duration requirement is reduced from two years in ICD-10 to several months in ICD-11 It would seem they are very aware of the common issues of gender variants during this development stages of an individual. I'm guessing that there's big questions over efficacy and accuracy then of assigning gender pre puberty? Buddy could you provide a link? Because this just looks like one man's opinion from here. I used your link and read through it. Yes but you seem to think that people are undergoing gender reassignment pre-puberty. If that's the case then you should evidence it. There have been a number of references to that in here and a few replying as such to some of my own questions. All in this thread I don't see anyone advocating pre-pubescent gender reassignment. Could you quote or link to them? Two in this group said they knew prepuberty and used it as an argument for gender reassignment." Where has anyone on this thread argued for gender reassignment for under 18s? I think the argument is for the use of puberty blockers as an intervention to delay puberty and give some breathing space to young people before the irreversible effects of puberty take place. Puberty blockers are not hormones and hormones are not sexual reassignment surgery. Just to be absolutely clear about this, I do not, and never have, advocated SRS for under 18s. And still the stench of know-it-all cis privilege pervades this thread. Even to the extent of disingenuously misinterpreting trans peoples arguments.  | |||
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"They should rely more on talking therapy and social role changes, and appearance, rather than any medical intervention, and allow them to go through a proper puberty which might alleviate the dysphoria anyway. They might be gay, or bisexual, or lesbian, allow children to be children and to dress how they feel, but no medical intervention until 18." | |||
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"They should rely more on talking therapy and social role changes, and appearance, rather than any medical intervention, and allow them to go through a proper puberty which might alleviate the dysphoria anyway. They might be gay, or bisexual, or lesbian, allow children to be children and to dress how they feel, but no medical intervention until 18. "This is a seriously cruel way of dealing with it. Trans kids take their own lives regularly because they’re forced to go through puberty. I was one who tried to. I’m not suggesting hormones or surgery for kids. Just a drug to delay puberty while they mature enough to make decisions. If you love your kids why make them go through something so distressing? | |||
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"They should rely more on talking therapy and social role changes, and appearance, rather than any medical intervention, and allow them to go through a proper puberty which might alleviate the dysphoria anyway. They might be gay, or bisexual, or lesbian, allow children to be children and to dress how they feel, but no medical intervention until 18.
This is a seriously cruel way of dealing with it. Trans kids take their own lives regularly because they’re forced to go through puberty. I was one who tried to.
I’m not suggesting hormones or surgery for kids.
Just a drug to delay puberty while they mature enough to make decisions.
If you love your kids why make them go through something so distressing? "
Won't someone think of the children, as it were. | |||
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"This is what happens when the pc brigade bend over backwards to please people... Made a rod for their own back... Some people will need the surgery but there will obviously be confused and make a mistake.... If this case is won that leaves the doors open for loads of new millionaires " As I said earlier; a few women will regret they had an abortion but that shouldn’t mean abortion isn’t an option. | |||
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"The Russians used to give puberty blocking drugs to their young female athletes so they would perform better at the Olympics." What has that got to do with trans issues? | |||
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"The Russians used to give puberty blocking drugs to their young female athletes so they would perform better at the Olympics." Some people take the medication which keeps me alive as an incredibly dangerous diet pill. So what? | |||
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"The Russians used to give puberty blocking drugs to their young female athletes so they would perform better at the Olympics. What has that got to do with trans issues?" Just exercising my right to free speech - chill. | |||
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"The Russians used to give puberty blocking drugs to their young female athletes so they would perform better at the Olympics. Some people take the medication which keeps me alive as an incredibly dangerous diet pill. So what?" Are children forced to take them? | |||
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"They should rely more on talking therapy and social role changes, and appearance, rather than any medical intervention, and allow them to go through a proper puberty which might alleviate the dysphoria anyway. They might be gay, or bisexual, or lesbian, allow children to be children and to dress how they feel, but no medical intervention until 18.
This is a seriously cruel way of dealing with it. Trans kids take their own lives regularly because they’re forced to go through puberty. I was one who tried to.
I’m not suggesting hormones or surgery for kids.
Just a drug to delay puberty while they mature enough to make decisions.
If you love your kids why make them go through something so distressing? "Exactly this ! My daughter considered taking her life she was so confused ! She told me this later! I still feel sad I didnt know at the time if this was out there more at the time maybe it could have been so much easier ! X | |||
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"The Russians used to give puberty blocking drugs to their young female athletes so they would perform better at the Olympics. Some people take the medication which keeps me alive as an incredibly dangerous diet pill. So what? Are children forced to take them?" What children are being forced to take puberty blockers? I was taking these pills under 18 so... Yeah I guess so?  | |||
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"The Russians used to give puberty blocking drugs to their young female athletes so they would perform better at the Olympics. Some people take the medication which keeps me alive as an incredibly dangerous diet pill. So what? Are children forced to take them?" Trans children aren’t forced to take puberty blockers. They have to fight to get them. They have to prove they are mature enough to give informed consent. | |||
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"They should rely more on talking therapy and social role changes, and appearance, rather than any medical intervention, and allow them to go through a proper puberty which might alleviate the dysphoria anyway. They might be gay, or bisexual, or lesbian, allow children to be children and to dress how they feel, but no medical intervention until 18.
This is a seriously cruel way of dealing with it. Trans kids take their own lives regularly because they’re forced to go through puberty. I was one who tried to.
I’m not suggesting hormones or surgery for kids.
Just a drug to delay puberty while they mature enough to make decisions.
If you love your kids why make them go through something so distressing?
Exactly this ! My daughter considered taking her life she was so confused ! She told me this later! I still feel sad I didnt know at the time if this was out there more at the time maybe it could have been so much easier ! X"I’m so sorry your daughter, and in turn, you had such a distressing time. I share my own story in hope that it will ease the route for those following their own. | |||
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"They should rely more on talking therapy and social role changes, and appearance, rather than any medical intervention, and allow them to go through a proper puberty which might alleviate the dysphoria anyway. They might be gay, or bisexual, or lesbian, allow children to be children and to dress how they feel, but no medical intervention until 18. "This really isn't how any of this works, and even a cursory reading of trans people's experiences and/or the medical literature would tell you this. | |||
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"They should rely more on talking therapy and social role changes, and appearance, rather than any medical intervention, and allow them to go through a proper puberty which might alleviate the dysphoria anyway. They might be gay, or bisexual, or lesbian, allow children to be children and to dress how they feel, but no medical intervention until 18.
This is a seriously cruel way of dealing with it. Trans kids take their own lives regularly because they’re forced to go through puberty. I was one who tried to.
I’m not suggesting hormones or surgery for kids.
Just a drug to delay puberty while they mature enough to make decisions.
If you love your kids why make them go through something so distressing?
Exactly this ! My daughter considered taking her life she was so confused ! She told me this later! I still feel sad I didnt know at the time if this was out there more at the time maybe it could have been so much easier ! X
I’m so sorry your daughter, and in turn, you had such a distressing time.
I share my own story in hope that it will ease the route for those following their own. " | |||
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"My transgender daughter knew from very young age ! Just wish I had known so as to get her the help she needed far earlier! Before she cut herself/ tried to end her life (which I never knew about till later) obviously I saw the arm cutting but she is a very happy young lady now living as who she should have allways been x" Yeah I have been like this since probably around the age of 4 myself and it got "worse" around the age of 11 or 10. Thankfully I have never thought of harming myself because of the situation I am but I can very easily see why people would do. If I had a genies lamp myself I know what all three of my wishes would be. It's great that are so supportive and that your daughter got the help she needed x | |||
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"They should rely more on talking therapy and social role changes, and appearance, rather than any medical intervention, and allow them to go through a proper puberty which might alleviate the dysphoria anyway. They might be gay, or bisexual, or lesbian, allow children to be children and to dress how they feel, but no medical intervention until 18.
This really isn't how any of this works, and even a cursory reading of trans people's experiences and/or the medical literature would tell you this."the Tavistock clinic is being sued by two patients, which prompted me to begin this thread. It will probably cost them a fortune, of money which could have been used to help dysphoric children. I have nothing but compassion for young people in this situation as I experienced it myself, but could talk to no one about it,myself back fourty years ago. Some children are very lucky to have such supportive parents, but a lot don't unfortunately. It's a difficult decision for clinicians to decide on, especially if you risk being sued. Glad to hear some success stories on here, and good luck to them. | |||
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