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"So apparently the good old Government are not going to allow trans people to change their birth certificates without a medical diagnosis. What are your views good, bad or in different?" Not heard about this. When was it announced? | |||
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"So apparently the good old Government are not going to allow trans people to change their birth certificates without a medical diagnosis. What are your views good, bad or in different? Not heard about this. When was it announced? " Not sure of the exact date (sorry) it was in my Apple news feed as I was scrolling earlier. | |||
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"So apparently the good old Government are not going to allow trans people to change their birth certificates without a medical diagnosis. What are your views good, bad or in different? Not heard about this. When was it announced? Not sure of the exact date (sorry) it was in my Apple news feed as I was scrolling earlier." It was yesterday. I have read the article and if im honest I can see they have come to this conclusion. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely?" This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. " That's the point isn't it...you're CORRECTING the paperwork if you're trans...not just "changing" it. 
Lu  | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. " If a person is having sex reassignment surgery then that would be a medical diagnosis, thus enabling them to change the birth certificate. But if people can change it without a medical diagnosis, then that would leave the system open to abuse by other people who want to change the birth certificate documents for other purposes. That would do a disservice to trans people. I don't think it's unreasonable to say persons need to have the medical diagnosis to change a birth certificate. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. If a person is having sex reassignment surgery then that would be a medical diagnosis, thus enabling them to change the birth certificate. But if people can change it without a medical diagnosis, then that would leave the system open to abuse by other people who want to change the birth certificate documents for other purposes. That would do a disservice to trans people. I don't think it's unreasonable to say persons need to have the medical diagnosis to change a birth certificate." And this is why my brain got a bit melty  but thank you for taking the time for some explanation  | |||
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"Just reading up on the Sy gene. Not much out there. Has it got a fancy full name? In terms of the OP it doesn’t affect me so it’s not something I understand. I look at one of the commentators in here and have so much admiration for their journey. I would however think that the process should be quicker for the sad reasons stated above. But with the strain on services at the moment I can only see it getting longer "There’s precious little research so I’m clinging to the sy gene thing as an explanation for why I’m the way I am. I know I’m female and now my body shows me as female I’m happier than I’ve ever been. Getting to the bottom of why people are trans doesn’t seem to be much of a priority. I just know I am and I’ve not cost the tax payer any money to get to where I am, for the record. (I know that winds some people up when they think of the tiny amount of the nhs budget that’s spent on trans people). | |||
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"There are good reasons why they don't want documentation altered. In reality does it really matter its only a piece of paper. " It would matter the world to my daughter x | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely?" No x | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. " Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. " | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue?" Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. | |||
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"I didnt think u could? One of my daughters is trans so so proud of her but were told no she has a passport and provisional driving licence but were told birth certificate cant b changed? Which is a shame x" It can be corrected (changed). I have my gender recognition certificate and am awaiting my corrected birth certificate. I do not want to have that mistake popping up as an anomaly when I apply for things for the rest of my life. The doctors didn’t know when I was born that I was female and that’s not their fault. They were just going on first impressions. I should’t have to live with that forever. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. " There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. | |||
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To change it is to falsify a fact at the time of creation of the *birth*certificate | |||
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"Because it's a *birth* certificate, not a *current* certificate
To change it is to falsify a fact at the time of creation of the *birth*certificate"Trans women/men have always been what they are. Their paperwork is wrong. | |||
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"Because it's a *birth* certificate, not a *current* certificate
To change it is to falsify a fact at the time of creation of the *birth*certificate
Trans women/men have always been what they are. Their paperwork is wrong.
"Exactly. Is a correction, not a falsification. If the misspelled a name ( it happens) then why should you live with forever? | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. " As per my later post; I agree they have to go with first impressions but there is a system in place to allow a tiny portion of the population to correct their paperwork. Why does this concern people who aren’t trans? What effect does what my birth certificate have on you? | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. As per my later post; I agree they have to go with first impressions but there is a system in place to allow a tiny portion of the population to correct their paperwork. Why does this concern people who aren’t trans? What effect does what my birth certificate have on you? " My thoughts exactly. It concerns no one but the person on question so why do people have such strong views on what should/shouldn't happen. Let people live, however is right for them! | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. As per my later post; I agree they have to go with first impressions but there is a system in place to allow a tiny portion of the population to correct their paperwork. Why does this concern people who aren’t trans? What effect does what my birth certificate have on you? My thoughts exactly. It concerns no one but the person on question so why do people have such strong views on what should/shouldn't happen. Let people live, however is right for them! " This!!! | |||
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"I would imagine it matters enormously to people impacted amd i was disappointed when i listened to. Thw news yesterday I put myself in their shoes... Turning up at airport security looking the opposite sex to what your passport says-i imagine it triggers a lot of tiresome, potentially uncomfortable questions that could cause embarrassment for the person. Someone said, it is only a piece of paper... But it is so much more in reality You have to have a lot of strength of character and i have a lot of empathy for trans people trying to live their true self with the pressure of society to conform, waiting to crush them at every opportunity " I have a friend who’s on the waiting list for help to transition. (If I’d have gone via the nhs via my local clinic it would have taken about six years to get to this point rather than the three it’s taken by paying myself). She is a frequent traveller for business and to look at her you wouldn’t know she’s trans. The body scanner shows up her shape beneath her clothes doesn’t match her gender though so she gets additional searches and has to explain herself almost every flight. | |||
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"The issue doesn’t affect me personally. It’s implementation doesn’t affect me also. But from the outside looking in it makes a hell of positive difference to those affected. So what’s the argument against it? Because it’s beyond me. " Exactly. I’m floundering around a bit trying to get people to understand it from my (trans) viewpoint. It’s my life. What does any of this have to do with anyone else? How does it impact other people’s lives? It’s no different to my choice if under wear. I can wear what I like and the only people who need to see are me and my lovers. | |||
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"I would imagine it matters enormously to people impacted amd i was disappointed when i listened to. Thw news yesterday I put myself in their shoes... Turning up at airport security looking the opposite sex to what your passport says-i imagine it triggers a lot of tiresome, potentially uncomfortable questions that could cause embarrassment for the person. Someone said, it is only a piece of paper... But it is so much more in reality You have to have a lot of strength of character and i have a lot of empathy for trans people trying to live their true self with the pressure of society to conform, waiting to crush them at every opportunity I have a friend who’s on the waiting list for help to transition. (If I’d have gone via the nhs via my local clinic it would have taken about six years to get to this point rather than the three it’s taken by paying myself). She is a frequent traveller for business and to look at her you wouldn’t know she’s trans. The body scanner shows up her shape beneath her clothes doesn’t match her gender though so she gets additional searches and has to explain herself almost every flight. " And then imagine having to choose whether to visit a less tolerant country because your paperwork doesn't match  | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. As per my later post; I agree they have to go with first impressions but there is a system in place to allow a tiny portion of the population to correct their paperwork. Why does this concern people who aren’t trans? What effect does what my birth certificate have on you? My thoughts exactly. It concerns no one but the person on question so why do people have such strong views on what should/shouldn't happen. Let people live, however is right for them! " I agree live and let live. It’s is still not the point I am making. The fact of the matter is they were born. Physically a doctor has to decide what to put on a birth certificate. It’s as simple as that. Like I already agreed and the certificate is used to apply for a passport and they can put what they want on it. You can identify as a rocket ship for all I care. The point is at the time you are born, you cannot put on a certificate of birth you are trans. And if you alter it later in life it is falsifying the documentation by saying you identify as whatever it is. At birth you were what you are. Simple. Nothing narrow minded about it. It’s just facts. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. As per my later post; I agree they have to go with first impressions but there is a system in place to allow a tiny portion of the population to correct their paperwork. Why does this concern people who aren’t trans? What effect does what my birth certificate have on you? My thoughts exactly. It concerns no one but the person on question so why do people have such strong views on what should/shouldn't happen. Let people live, however is right for them! I agree live and let live. It’s is still not the point I am making. The fact of the matter is they were born. Physically a doctor has to decide what to put on a birth certificate. It’s as simple as that. Like I already agreed and the certificate is used to apply for a passport and they can put what they want on it. You can identify as a rocket ship for all I care. The point is at the time you are born, you cannot put on a certificate of birth you are trans. And if you alter it later in life it is falsifying the documentation by saying you identify as whatever it is. At birth you were what you are. Simple. Nothing narrow minded about it. It’s just facts. " Nah. I disagree. A trans person has always been trans. From birth. So at birth, a trans woman is a trans woman. Genitals don't matter. They are CORRECTING THEIR paperwork. For you to argue with someone about who/what THEY are is super narrow minded. If you agree with live and let live, why argue with them? Why not accept that they have always been trans and that has no effect on you, so why keep telling them what YOU deem to be fact? | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. As per my later post; I agree they have to go with first impressions but there is a system in place to allow a tiny portion of the population to correct their paperwork. Why does this concern people who aren’t trans? What effect does what my birth certificate have on you? My thoughts exactly. It concerns no one but the person on question so why do people have such strong views on what should/shouldn't happen. Let people live, however is right for them! I agree live and let live. It’s is still not the point I am making. The fact of the matter is they were born. Physically a doctor has to decide what to put on a birth certificate. It’s as simple as that. Like I already agreed and the certificate is used to apply for a passport and they can put what they want on it. You can identify as a rocket ship for all I care. The point is at the time you are born, you cannot put on a certificate of birth you are trans. And if you alter it later in life it is falsifying the documentation by saying you identify as whatever it is. At birth you were what you are. Simple. Nothing narrow minded about it. It’s just facts. Nah. I disagree. A trans person has always been trans. From birth. So at birth, a trans woman is a trans woman. Genitals don't matter. They are CORRECTING THEIR paperwork. For you to argue with someone about who/what THEY are is super narrow minded. If you agree with live and let live, why argue with them? Why not accept that they have always been trans and that has no effect on you, so why keep telling them what YOU deem to be fact? " Trans at birth they may be, but once again. It is a record of birth. So you have to put down a sex. Unfortunately like I have said a newborn cannot speak to say: oi dickhead I may have a cock and balls, but put female down on my birth certificate please. Ffs Stupid argument and like I say nothing is narrow minded. It is simply a record at the time. Can you alter the past? No It’s in the past. | |||
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"I have no dog in this fight, I'm cis. But surely the documentation allows people to assess the person standing before them. If the person standing before them is a woman, then why is it helpful to explain that they might have been born with a penis? What good does that serve? Would it bring up a trans person's trauma? Should I have to present my birth certificate with a note saying that I've had gynaecological surgery? Should I be judged for that? (It didn't alter the external appearance of my genitalia, although it did involve manipulation of my reproductive parts) Why the hell does anyone's medical past bear on the vast majority of reasons why you need a birth certificate? How do we best support our trans brothers and sisters?" I'm with you! Let them do whatever they want/need to without judgement! | |||
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"I have no dog in this fight, I'm cis. But surely the documentation allows people to assess the person standing before them. If the person standing before them is a woman, then why is it helpful to explain that they might have been born with a penis? What good does that serve? Would it bring up a trans person's trauma? Should I have to present my birth certificate with a note saying that I've had gynaecological surgery? Should I be judged for that? (It didn't alter the external appearance of my genitalia, although it did involve manipulation of my reproductive parts) Why the hell does anyone's medical past bear on the vast majority of reasons why you need a birth certificate? How do we best support our trans brothers and sisters?" Agree. Fuck it don’t put a sex on the certificate. | |||
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"I have no dog in this fight, I'm cis. But surely the documentation allows people to assess the person standing before them. If the person standing before them is a woman, then why is it helpful to explain that they might have been born with a penis? What good does that serve? Would it bring up a trans person's trauma? Should I have to present my birth certificate with a note saying that I've had gynaecological surgery? Should I be judged for that? (It didn't alter the external appearance of my genitalia, although it did involve manipulation of my reproductive parts) Why the hell does anyone's medical past bear on the vast majority of reasons why you need a birth certificate? How do we best support our trans brothers and sisters? Agree. Fuck it don’t put a sex on the certificate. " Sure. Suits me just fine. I personally don't see that it makes any difference. I was given (name) and I was born to (name) and (name) in (place) at (date, time). | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. As per my later post; I agree they have to go with first impressions but there is a system in place to allow a tiny portion of the population to correct their paperwork. Why does this concern people who aren’t trans? What effect does what my birth certificate have on you? My thoughts exactly. It concerns no one but the person on question so why do people have such strong views on what should/shouldn't happen. Let people live, however is right for them! I agree live and let live. It’s is still not the point I am making. The fact of the matter is they were born. Physically a doctor has to decide what to put on a birth certificate. It’s as simple as that. Like I already agreed and the certificate is used to apply for a passport and they can put what they want on it. You can identify as a rocket ship for all I care. The point is at the time you are born, you cannot put on a certificate of birth you are trans. And if you alter it later in life it is falsifying the documentation by saying you identify as whatever it is. At birth you were what you are. Simple. Nothing narrow minded about it. It’s just facts. Nah. I disagree. A trans person has always been trans. From birth. So at birth, a trans woman is a trans woman. Genitals don't matter. They are CORRECTING THEIR paperwork. For you to argue with someone about who/what THEY are is super narrow minded. If you agree with live and let live, why argue with them? Why not accept that they have always been trans and that has no effect on you, so why keep telling them what YOU deem to be fact? Trans at birth they may be, but once again. It is a record of birth. So you have to put down a sex. Unfortunately like I have said a newborn cannot speak to say: oi dickhead I may have a cock and balls, but put female down on my birth certificate please. Ffs Stupid argument and like I say nothing is narrow minded. It is simply a record at the time. Can you alter the past? No It’s in the past. "Having a penis doesn't make you a man!!!! Why do you care so much? It doesn't affect you? It makes such a huge difference to trans people, why would you want to deny them that? Whatever you think (tho I totally disagree), why insist on speaking on it? When it doesn't have any impact on your life. You know by saying what you are you will offend people, with no benefit to yourself....i don't get it. I don't get why it matters to anyone but them. I really don't. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. As per my later post; I agree they have to go with first impressions but there is a system in place to allow a tiny portion of the population to correct their paperwork. Why does this concern people who aren’t trans? What effect does what my birth certificate have on you? My thoughts exactly. It concerns no one but the person on question so why do people have such strong views on what should/shouldn't happen. Let people live, however is right for them! I agree live and let live. It’s is still not the point I am making. The fact of the matter is they were born. Physically a doctor has to decide what to put on a birth certificate. It’s as simple as that. Like I already agreed and the certificate is used to apply for a passport and they can put what they want on it. You can identify as a rocket ship for all I care. The point is at the time you are born, you cannot put on a certificate of birth you are trans. And if you alter it later in life it is falsifying the documentation by saying you identify as whatever it is. At birth you were what you are. Simple. Nothing narrow minded about it. It’s just facts. Nah. I disagree. A trans person has always been trans. From birth. So at birth, a trans woman is a trans woman. Genitals don't matter. They are CORRECTING THEIR paperwork. For you to argue with someone about who/what THEY are is super narrow minded. If you agree with live and let live, why argue with them? Why not accept that they have always been trans and that has no effect on you, so why keep telling them what YOU deem to be fact? Trans at birth they may be, but once again. It is a record of birth. So you have to put down a sex. Unfortunately like I have said a newborn cannot speak to say: oi dickhead I may have a cock and balls, but put female down on my birth certificate please. Ffs Stupid argument and like I say nothing is narrow minded. It is simply a record at the time. Can you alter the past? No It’s in the past.
Having a penis doesn't make you a man!!!!
Why do you care so much?
It doesn't affect you?
It makes such a huge difference to trans people, why would you want to deny them that?
Whatever you think (tho I totally disagree), why insist on speaking on it? When it doesn't have any impact on your life.
You know by saying what you are you will offend people, with no benefit to yourself....i don't get it.
I don't get why it matters to anyone but them. I really don't."You are right it doesn’t affect me, or effects me. I would t deny anyone of anything. Again not the point I was making. You are a clever nice person. I guess you disagree with that also. Everything has an impact on everyone’s life. Why does anyone need labels? I’d I offend people that’s because their viewpoint is different to mine and I apologise for none of it. As I am not bigoted, harsh or crass. I just say things how they are. And it apparently matters to you enough to comment about it? This is a forum, for expressing thoughts etc. There is nothing wrong with a healthy constructive debate. | |||
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"Without getting into the rights and wrongs about it Isn’t a Birth certificate exactly that. It was issued when registering a birth. Having an Op years later, doesn’t cancel out your physical birth." But how about those people who have both gender or no gender when born .. A doctor / parent decides... It isn't clear cut | |||
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"Without getting into the rights and wrongs about it Isn’t a Birth certificate exactly that. It was issued when registering a birth. Having an Op years later, doesn’t cancel out your physical birth." This. | |||
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"Without getting into the rights and wrongs about it Isn’t a Birth certificate exactly that. It was issued when registering a birth. Having an Op years later, doesn’t cancel out your physical birth." No. And the original birth certificate still exists. Getting way into the rights and wrongs of it, getting hassled for your identification being wrong or invalid is somewhere between annoying and terrifying. And trans people face all sorts of abuse and worse. It's in the records. It'll continue to be in the records. Why should we give trans people records that aren't fit for purpose (clear and safe identification so they can get on with their lives now)? | |||
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"Without getting into the rights and wrongs about it Isn’t a Birth certificate exactly that. It was issued when registering a birth. Having an Op years later, doesn’t cancel out your physical birth. But how about those people who have both gender or no gender when born .. A doctor / parent decides... It isn't clear cut" This ^ | |||
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" Whatever you think (tho I totally disagree), why insist on speaking on it? When it doesn't have any impact on your life. You know by saying what you are you will offend people, with no benefit to yourself....i don't get it. I don't get why it matters to anyone but them. I really don't. You are right it doesn’t affect me, or effects me. I would t deny anyone of anything. Again not the point I was making. You are a clever nice person. I guess you disagree with that also. Everything has an impact on everyone’s life. Why does anyone need labels? I’d I offend people that’s because their viewpoint is different to mine and I apologise for none of it. As I am not bigoted, harsh or crass. I just say things how they are. And it apparently matters to you enough to comment about it? This is a forum, for expressing thoughts etc. There is nothing wrong with a healthy constructive debate. "Labels is a whole other discussion. Heck yeah we need labels. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. As per my later post; I agree they have to go with first impressions but there is a system in place to allow a tiny portion of the population to correct their paperwork. Why does this concern people who aren’t trans? What effect does what my birth certificate have on you? My thoughts exactly. It concerns no one but the person on question so why do people have such strong views on what should/shouldn't happen. Let people live, however is right for them! I agree live and let live. It’s is still not the point I am making. The fact of the matter is they were born. Physically a doctor has to decide what to put on a birth certificate. It’s as simple as that. Like I already agreed and the certificate is used to apply for a passport and they can put what they want on it. You can identify as a rocket ship for all I care. The point is at the time you are born, you cannot put on a certificate of birth you are trans. And if you alter it later in life it is falsifying the documentation by saying you identify as whatever it is. At birth you were what you are. Simple. Nothing narrow minded about it. It’s just facts. Nah. I disagree. A trans person has always been trans. From birth. So at birth, a trans woman is a trans woman. Genitals don't matter. They are CORRECTING THEIR paperwork. For you to argue with someone about who/what THEY are is super narrow minded. If you agree with live and let live, why argue with them? Why not accept that they have always been trans and that has no effect on you, so why keep telling them what YOU deem to be fact? Trans at birth they may be, but once again. It is a record of birth. So you have to put down a sex. Unfortunately like I have said a newborn cannot speak to say: oi dickhead I may have a cock and balls, but put female down on my birth certificate please. Ffs Stupid argument and like I say nothing is narrow minded. It is simply a record at the time. Can you alter the past? No It’s in the past.
Having a penis doesn't make you a man!!!!
Why do you care so much?
It doesn't affect you?
It makes such a huge difference to trans people, why would you want to deny them that?
Whatever you think (tho I totally disagree), why insist on speaking on it? When it doesn't have any impact on your life.
You know by saying what you are you will offend people, with no benefit to yourself....i don't get it.
I don't get why it matters to anyone but them. I really don't.
You are right it doesn’t affect me, or effects me.
I would t deny anyone of anything. Again not the point I was making.
You are a clever nice person. I guess you disagree with that also.
Everything has an impact on everyone’s life. Why does anyone need labels?
I’d I offend people that’s because their viewpoint is different to mine and I apologise for none of it. As I am not bigoted, harsh or crass. I just say things how they are.
And it apparently matters to you enough to comment about it?
This is a forum, for expressing thoughts etc. There is nothing wrong with a healthy constructive debate. "Honestly? It matters to me because my trans friend took her own life. Because she felt like she was "wrong". Years of people telling her she "used to be a man" etc. She didn't feel she could defend herself. That is heart breaking to me. So I speak up for what I think is right. For those who can't. I think EVERYONE should be able to live however and do whatever the fuck they want WITHOUT judgement from others providing they're not harming anyone else. It's that simple. If I knew what I was saying would offend someone on a deep level, I'd keep my gob shut. I'm not offended to be controversial. I'm actually not offended at all, I'm not trans. But I will lend my (very loud) voice to speak up for trans people. They shouldn't have to deal with people constantly telling them they are wrong. No one should. | |||
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"Without getting into the rights and wrongs about it Isn’t a Birth certificate exactly that. It was issued when registering a birth. Having an Op years later, doesn’t cancel out your physical birth. No. And the original birth certificate still exists. Getting way into the rights and wrongs of it, getting hassled for your identification being wrong or invalid is somewhere between annoying and terrifying. And trans people face all sorts of abuse and worse. It's in the records. It'll continue to be in the records. Why should we give trans people records that aren't fit for purpose (clear and safe identification so they can get on with their lives now)?" Yes... And if needbe, an easy addendum added to existing documentation would be a huge step forward.. Maybe it would satisfy those who say you cannot change history... But also become the new norm for a tiny set of the population who desperately need it | |||
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"I also think that being accused of being offended is passe. Yes, I'm offended that trans people have to jump through hoops to have to be able to identify themselves without being hassled. Yes I'm offended by the stigma and hatred they face. It's horrendous. It's unjust. It might even be evil. I'm moral. Fuck yes I find it fucking offensive. Don't you?" Absofuckinglutely! I may get a snowflake tattoo  | |||
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"Without getting into the rights and wrongs about it Isn’t a Birth certificate exactly that. It was issued when registering a birth. Having an Op years later, doesn’t cancel out your physical birth. No. And the original birth certificate still exists. Getting way into the rights and wrongs of it, getting hassled for your identification being wrong or invalid is somewhere between annoying and terrifying. And trans people face all sorts of abuse and worse. It's in the records. It'll continue to be in the records. Why should we give trans people records that aren't fit for purpose (clear and safe identification so they can get on with their lives now)? Yes... And if needbe, an easy addendum added to existing documentation would be a huge step forward.. Maybe it would satisfy those who say you cannot change history... But also become the new norm for a tiny set of the population who desperately need it" Or gee, the fact that for a 35 year old's birth certificate (picking on my year of birth), it'll look like a 2020 birth certificate rather than being done on a typewriter. Clue: go have a look if you really need to know if this person was born with tested, ovaries, both, or none. | |||
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"I also think that being accused of being offended is passe. Yes, I'm offended that trans people have to jump through hoops to have to be able to identify themselves without being hassled. Yes I'm offended by the stigma and hatred they face. It's horrendous. It's unjust. It might even be evil. I'm moral. Fuck yes I find it fucking offensive. Don't you?" 100%...well said | |||
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"I also think that being accused of being offended is passe. Yes, I'm offended that trans people have to jump through hoops to have to be able to identify themselves without being hassled. Yes I'm offended by the stigma and hatred they face. It's horrendous. It's unjust. It might even be evil. I'm moral. Fuck yes I find it fucking offensive. Don't you?"
People should get their priorities straight, look at the horrendous rates of depression and suicide/suicide attempts amongst trans people and support ways to reduce that, not stroking their chins pontificating about 'offence' or 'free speech' or whatever. | |||
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"I also think that being accused of being offended is passe. Yes, I'm offended that trans people have to jump through hoops to have to be able to identify themselves without being hassled. Yes I'm offended by the stigma and hatred they face. It's horrendous. It's unjust. It might even be evil. I'm moral. Fuck yes I find it fucking offensive. Don't you?
People should get their priorities straight, look at the horrendous rates of depression and suicide/suicide attempts amongst trans people and support ways to reduce that, not stroking their chins pontificating about 'offence' or 'free speech' or whatever. "Absolutely agree | |||
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"I also think that being accused of being offended is passe. Yes, I'm offended that trans people have to jump through hoops to have to be able to identify themselves without being hassled. Yes I'm offended by the stigma and hatred they face. It's horrendous. It's unjust. It might even be evil. I'm moral. Fuck yes I find it fucking offensive. Don't you?
People should get their priorities straight, look at the horrendous rates of depression and suicide/suicide attempts amongst trans people and support ways to reduce that, not stroking their chins pontificating about 'offence' or 'free speech' or whatever. "Mmhm. Being offended is a sign of your morality being infringed upon. It's normal. It's how we figure stuff out. Free speech: yeah you can say stuff, but people are also free to respond, including by expressing their revulsion at what you're saying or refusing to associate with you. | |||
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"You need to produce your birth certificate to get a mortgage or to get some jobs etc. If I still had one with the incorrect gender on it I would effectively out myself as trans when I had to produce it. That’s my choice to do. I’m not about to sleep with the bank or my future employer so why should I have to tell them I was born with a, now corrected, deformity? " I totally understand were you are coming and its such a difficult one because when you have someone like yourself explaining it, i seems obvious that you should be able able change your birth certificate with ease. Unfortunately there are people out there that would use the opportunity to their own ends. | |||
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"I normally get a little apprehensive when I open threads like this but the replies to this thread have given me hope that one day we can be a decent society all round and accept people for who they truly are, I find it heart warming that folks are educated on the subject and willing to be, as proved in this thread it makes a nice change and is good to read thank you x"Got your back as best I can  | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely?" I totally agree with you. Your birth certificate is what sex you are and D.O.B. regardless how you grew up. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? I totally agree with you. Your birth certificate is what sex you are and D.O.B. regardless how you grew up. " I really think this is a wrong set of priorities. "A doctor didn't see a penis on me as an infant" is way less important than "I want to be able to identify myself without facing discrimination or harm" Who the fuck really cares what a doctor thinks about an infant's genitals? | |||
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"I normally get a little apprehensive when I open threads like this but the replies to this thread have given me hope that one day we can be a decent society all round and accept people for who they truly are, I find it heart warming that folks are educated on the subject and willing to be, as proved in this thread it makes a nice change and is good to read thank you x"Absolutely this
The number of transphobic people on the forums seems to be diminishing (I’ve seen a few when these debates start) and the level of people trying to understand and defend the rights of Trans People is heartwarming. I’ve read every single comment and actually learned a bit from some of the posters.
I crossdress and on the scale of Transgender I’m at the bottom of the ladder, but have met quite a few over the years. Non have told me their journeys were easy and uncomplicated, losing friends and family to find an inner peace and live their true lives.
I totally get it when Trans people fight for their rights, so when you see even more people on their side throughout this thread, I’m glad I’ve not been disappointed with the levels of empathy shown.
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. " Can you please describe what you mean by "the blinkered trans argument"? Having a birth certificate that shows you were born a different sex can lead to huge and significant problems for many fully transitioned trans people. There are many instances in life where producing a birth certificate is necessary, changing employers for example, which would effectively 'out' a trans person living in stealth and leave them open to possible discrimination and abuse. Believe it or not, it's also hugely beneficial to a trans persons state of mind to have a birth certificate that reflects their actual gender. To most people, a bith certificate is just something that they have and seldom think about, but without a new birth certificate obtained via a gender recognition certificate, it's a consent reminder to trans people of a past they no longer want nor recognise. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. Surely the facts are you are either born with testicles or ovaries, in rare cases both. And identity of said persons consciousness is irrelevant as no newborn can talk and explain I identify as a woman etc. The birth certificate is simply the governments records for population, votes etc. How someone identifies in later life shouldn’t matter to the certificate as you were born the way you were. And no amount of surgery can change what happened at the time of issue? Can I suggest you read my earlier post with an open mind rather than the blinkered version of things? Science is continuously making new discoveries. What makes you left or right handed? It comes from a dominant side of your brain. My feminine part of my brain is the dominant area. I’m right handed and female because of my brain. There’s nothing blinkered about the fact they have to record a birth. What I’m saying is the certificate is there for the reason, of population and needed as proof of origin of birth for passport purposes/ votes etc. Do you think they wait to find out what the baby says when it can talk to explain it identifies as a Male/female? It’s simply a record. So why should those records be altered later in life, because at that point they were true at time of press? And the blinkered trans argument has nothing to do with the birth certificate. I agree you should be able to put what you identify as on your passport. But as a child that’s unable to speak simple definition should be ok. Can you please describe what you mean by "the blinkered trans argument"? Having a birth certificate that shows you were born a different sex can lead to huge and significant problems for many fully transitioned trans people. There are many instances in life where producing a birth certificate is necessary, changing employers for example, which would effectively 'out' a trans person living in stealth and leave them open to possible discrimination and abuse. Believe it or not, it's also hugely beneficial to a trans persons state of mind to have a birth certificate that reflects their actual gender. To most people, a bith certificate is just something that they have and seldom think about, but without a new birth certificate obtained via a gender recognition certificate, it's a consent reminder to trans people of a past they no longer want nor recognise. " Yes. We have no need to out trans people in the vast majority of instances. My name at birth, place of birth, date/ time, and parents' names, should be more than enough. My genitals at birth should be utterly irrelevant (and it's creepy that it's not) If a doctor needs to know that I have ovaries, they can (look at my medical records or) give me an external ultrasound. Other than that, I'm not sure why my genitals now or when I was an infant matter in the slightest. Tbh I think it's gross to fixate on and wonder if we should eliminate the F and M entirely. | |||
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"First world problems " Another first world problem is being ignorant, read the thread, suicide rate amongst Trans people is a Worldwide problem and so is the Violence they’re subjected to. | |||
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"First world problems Another first world problem is being ignorant, read the thread, suicide rate amongst Trans people is a Worldwide problem and so is the Violence they’re subjected to. " Yes. I'd say the real first world problem here is "other people's suffering doesn't matter because it's not part of my life, I don't want to hear it". | |||
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"First world problems Another first world problem is being ignorant, read the thread, suicide rate amongst Trans people is a Worldwide problem and so is the Violence they’re subjected to. " | |||
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"I totally support trans rights. I do also fully understand why people are concerned that if you make it easier to change your birth certificate then that also raises the chance of "abuse" of this. This is why discussions that this are vital. And I really hope a way forward can be found that doesn't discriminate but also address's peoples legitimate concerns. " I think anything can be abused, and stopping most people from being able to be treated properly because some people will abuse it is the wrong way to go about it. Treat it like anything else. Punish those who exploit the system, not those who need the system. | |||
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"I totally support trans rights. I do also fully understand why people are concerned that if you make it easier to change your birth certificate then that also raises the chance of "abuse" of this. This is why discussions that this are vital. And I really hope a way forward can be found that doesn't discriminate but also address's peoples legitimate concerns. I think anything can be abused, and stopping most people from being able to be treated properly because some people will abuse it is the wrong way to go about it. Treat it like anything else. Punish those who exploit the system, not those who need the system." Thats very black and white thinking. It really isn't that simple and people have legitimate concerns and these should be addressed but pushed aside. | |||
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"I totally support trans rights. I do also fully understand why people are concerned that if you make it easier to change your birth certificate then that also raises the chance of "abuse" of this. This is why discussions that this are vital. And I really hope a way forward can be found that doesn't discriminate but also address's peoples legitimate concerns. I think anything can be abused, and stopping most people from being able to be treated properly because some people will abuse it is the wrong way to go about it. Treat it like anything else. Punish those who exploit the system, not those who need the system. Thats very black and white thinking. It really isn't that simple and people have legitimate concerns and these should be addressed but pushed aside. " Not really. In what other matter do we say "no one can have rights because some people are arseholes"? | |||
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"I totally support trans rights. I do also fully understand why people are concerned that if you make it easier to change your birth certificate then that also raises the chance of "abuse" of this. This is why discussions that this are vital. And I really hope a way forward can be found that doesn't discriminate but also address's peoples legitimate concerns. I think anything can be abused, and stopping most people from being able to be treated properly because some people will abuse it is the wrong way to go about it. Treat it like anything else. Punish those who exploit the system, not those who need the system. Thats very black and white thinking. It really isn't that simple and people have legitimate concerns and these should be addressed but pushed aside. Not really. In what other matter do we say "no one can have rights because some people are arseholes"?" Trans people do have the right to change their birth certificate through. Yes that is a lengthy process but so are not things that involve a legal process and changing official documents is a legal process. | |||
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"I totally support trans rights. I do also fully understand why people are concerned that if you make it easier to change your birth certificate then that also raises the chance of "abuse" of this. This is why discussions that this are vital. And I really hope a way forward can be found that doesn't discriminate but also address's peoples legitimate concerns. I think anything can be abused, and stopping most people from being able to be treated properly because some people will abuse it is the wrong way to go about it. Treat it like anything else. Punish those who exploit the system, not those who need the system. Thats very black and white thinking. It really isn't that simple and people have legitimate concerns and these should be addressed but pushed aside. Not really. In what other matter do we say "no one can have rights because some people are arseholes"? Trans people do have the right to change their birth certificate through. Yes that is a lengthy process but so are not things that involve a legal process and changing official documents is a legal process. " That's true. And it's a start. But I'm here for reducing the trauma my trans brothers and sisters have to face to be recognised for who they are. | |||
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"I totally support trans rights. I do also fully understand why people are concerned that if you make it easier to change your birth certificate then that also raises the chance of "abuse" of this. This is why discussions that this are vital. And I really hope a way forward can be found that doesn't discriminate but also address's peoples legitimate concerns. I think anything can be abused, and stopping most people from being able to be treated properly because some people will abuse it is the wrong way to go about it. Treat it like anything else. Punish those who exploit the system, not those who need the system. Thats very black and white thinking. It really isn't that simple and people have legitimate concerns and these should be addressed but pushed aside. Not really. In what other matter do we say "no one can have rights because some people are arseholes"? Trans people do have the right to change their birth certificate through. Yes that is a lengthy process but so are not things that involve a legal process and changing official documents is a legal process. That's true. And it's a start. But I'm here for reducing the trauma my trans brothers and sisters have to face to be recognised for who they are." And I agree that the process should be speeded up. However like I said their are legitimate concerns around "just" being able to change your birth certificate. Any change in a birth certificate takes time a professes have to be followed. | |||
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"I totally support trans rights. I do also fully understand why people are concerned that if you make it easier to change your birth certificate then that also raises the chance of "abuse" of this. This is why discussions that this are vital. And I really hope a way forward can be found that doesn't discriminate but also address's peoples legitimate concerns. I think anything can be abused, and stopping most people from being able to be treated properly because some people will abuse it is the wrong way to go about it. Treat it like anything else. Punish those who exploit the system, not those who need the system. Thats very black and white thinking. It really isn't that simple and people have legitimate concerns and these should be addressed but pushed aside. Not really. In what other matter do we say "no one can have rights because some people are arseholes"? Trans people do have the right to change their birth certificate through. Yes that is a lengthy process but so are not things that involve a legal process and changing official documents is a legal process. That's true. And it's a start. But I'm here for reducing the trauma my trans brothers and sisters have to face to be recognised for who they are. And I agree that the process should be speeded up. However like I said their are legitimate concerns around "just" being able to change your birth certificate. Any change in a birth certificate takes time a professes have to be followed. " I think we're largely on the same page x | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely?" I tend to agree with you. The birth certificate is a statement of fact, based on your gender at birth. What you are now doesn't alter what you were then. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? I tend to agree with you. The birth certificate is a statement of fact, based on your gender at birth. What you are now doesn't alter what you were then. " By that logic people who are adopted also shouldn't have their birth certificate changed because it changes name and puts someone who is not in fact their biological mother or father. And I haven’t seen one ever say anything about changing the "facts" in regards to adoption. | |||
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"Having thought about it again I think there should be some kind of certificate to state you are transgender for instances like passports. Maybe there is but I dont know about it. " I have a certificate to state I’m female. It’s called a gender recognition certificate. I didn’t need it to change my passport. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? I tend to agree with you. The birth certificate is a statement of fact, based on your gender at birth. What you are now doesn't alter what you were then. By that logic people who are adopted also shouldn't have their birth certificate changed because it changes name and puts someone who is not in fact their biological mother or father. And I haven’t seen one ever say anything about changing the "facts" in regards to adoption. " I'm sure people argued that way. We've moved on. Hopefully we'll move on here too and accept trans people (not arguing against you here Lorna) | |||
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There are some of you though, who want me to have to retain a very important piece of Paperwork in it’s origin al incorrect format. “Can’t change the past”.
No; true, however, I can change paperwork.
That doesn’t change that I was born with a penis but by changing the paperwork I can put that fact behind me a little more.
If I go to sell my house, like I am right now, I have to produce id. I’m lucky. I have a driving license and a passport. Not everyone has. So I didn’t have to produce my birth certificate. I have had to produce it several times recently. And then my deed poll and so on. I don’t want to have to keep explaining my existence.
MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE DOES NOT AFFECT ANYONE BUT ME.
so why does what it says bother anyone else but me?
Why do so many people feel so strongly they want to argue that I should have to put up with that distress for ever?
Someone explain that to me please, because I really don’t understand why you feel so strongly that you want to force me to keep something that causes me so much distress.
The kind of distress that almost ended my life recently. | |||
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"In this thread: Cisgendered people talking about hypothetical situations where someone will 'abuse' the system and lie about being trans " | |||
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"First world problems " What a remarkably ignorant and selfish comment. Please consider that you personally not being bothered about something does not automatically extend to the rest of humanity. Trans people exist all over the world, including places very much not 'first world' and have done so throughout history. | |||
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"In this thread: Cisgendered people talking about hypothetical situations where someone will 'abuse' the system and lie about being trans
"Do I look like I’m lying
I also have a Pro forma from one of the best surgeons available stating he’s carried out reassignment surgery on me.
I’ve got tits too | |||
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"In this thread: Cisgendered people talking about hypothetical situations where someone will 'abuse' the system and lie about being trans
Do I look like I’m lying
I also have a Pro forma from one of the best surgeons available stating he’s carried out reassignment surgery on me.
I’ve got tits too "Solidarity, sister | |||
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"Ok; trans persons view on a trans persons paperwork here. The fact that I was born with a penis caused me many years of distress. Distress that drove me to consider mutilating my own body with a Stanley knife when I was 18. When my surgery was delayed during lockdown I knew logically that I would still get my body fixed in time. That didn’t stop me getting to the point where I knew I was losing the ability to be rational and had to reach out to a friend to distract myself before I took my own life. It was the closest I’ve ever got. When someone misgenders me or uses my old name it cuts me to the core. It burns inside. I want to put my transition behind me and just live as my true self now. Something many of you seem to be happy for me to do.
There are some of you though, who want me to have to retain a very important piece of Paperwork in it’s origin al incorrect format. “Can’t change the past”.
No; true, however, I can change paperwork.
That doesn’t change that I was born with a penis but by changing the paperwork I can put that fact behind me a little more.
If I go to sell my house, like I am right now, I have to produce id. I’m lucky. I have a driving license and a passport. Not everyone has. So I didn’t have to produce my birth certificate. I have had to produce it several times recently. And then my deed poll and so on. I don’t want to have to keep explaining my existence.
MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE DOES NOT AFFECT ANYONE BUT ME.
so why does what it says bother anyone else but me?
Why do so many people feel so strongly they want to argue that I should have to put up with that distress for ever?
Someone explain that to me please, because I really don’t understand why you feel so strongly that you want to force me to keep something that causes me so much distress.
The kind of distress that almost ended my life recently. "I'm so sorry you felt like that. Wishing you a all the happiness in the future.
Jo.Xx | |||
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"Ok; trans persons view on a trans persons paperwork here. The fact that I was born with a penis caused me many years of distress. Distress that drove me to consider mutilating my own body with a Stanley knife when I was 18. When my surgery was delayed during lockdown I knew logically that I would still get my body fixed in time. That didn’t stop me getting to the point where I knew I was losing the ability to be rational and had to reach out to a friend to distract myself before I took my own life. It was the closest I’ve ever got. When someone misgenders me or uses my old name it cuts me to the core. It burns inside. I want to put my transition behind me and just live as my true self now. Something many of you seem to be happy for me to do.
There are some of you though, who want me to have to retain a very important piece of Paperwork in it’s origin al incorrect format. “Can’t change the past”.
No; true, however, I can change paperwork.
That doesn’t change that I was born with a penis but by changing the paperwork I can put that fact behind me a little more.
If I go to sell my house, like I am right now, I have to produce id. I’m lucky. I have a driving license and a passport. Not everyone has. So I didn’t have to produce my birth certificate. I have had to produce it several times recently. And then my deed poll and so on. I don’t want to have to keep explaining my existence.
MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE DOES NOT AFFECT ANYONE BUT ME.
so why does what it says bother anyone else but me?
Why do so many people feel so strongly they want to argue that I should have to put up with that distress for ever?
Someone explain that to me please, because I really don’t understand why you feel so strongly that you want to force me to keep something that causes me so much distress.
The kind of distress that almost ended my life recently.
I'm so sorry you felt like that. Wishing you a all the happiness in the future.
Jo.Xx "I just want people to understand. I have my certificate to recognise my gender. I will get my new birth certificate as a result. That’s not debatable as it’s happening whatever anyone thinks. I’ve always been able to use whatever loo I wanted as there is no law to say I can’t. Loos aren’t legally designated spaces. Someone just puts a label on the door as a guide. | |||
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"Ok; trans persons view on a trans persons paperwork here. The fact that I was born with a penis caused me many years of distress. Distress that drove me to consider mutilating my own body with a Stanley knife when I was 18. When my surgery was delayed during lockdown I knew logically that I would still get my body fixed in time. That didn’t stop me getting to the point where I knew I was losing the ability to be rational and had to reach out to a friend to distract myself before I took my own life. It was the closest I’ve ever got. When someone misgenders me or uses my old name it cuts me to the core. It burns inside. I want to put my transition behind me and just live as my true self now. Something many of you seem to be happy for me to do.
There are some of you though, who want me to have to retain a very important piece of Paperwork in it’s origin al incorrect format. “Can’t change the past”.
No; true, however, I can change paperwork.
That doesn’t change that I was born with a penis but by changing the paperwork I can put that fact behind me a little more.
If I go to sell my house, like I am right now, I have to produce id. I’m lucky. I have a driving license and a passport. Not everyone has. So I didn’t have to produce my birth certificate. I have had to produce it several times recently. And then my deed poll and so on. I don’t want to have to keep explaining my existence.
MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE DOES NOT AFFECT ANYONE BUT ME.
so why does what it says bother anyone else but me?
Why do so many people feel so strongly they want to argue that I should have to put up with that distress for ever?
Someone explain that to me please, because I really don’t understand why you feel so strongly that you want to force me to keep something that causes me so much distress.
The kind of distress that almost ended my life recently.
I'm so sorry you felt like that. Wishing you a all the happiness in the future.
Jo.Xx
I just want people to understand.
I have my certificate to recognise my gender.
I will get my new birth certificate as a result.
That’s not debatable as it’s happening whatever anyone thinks.
I’ve always been able to use whatever loo I wanted as there is no law to say I can’t.
Loos aren’t legally designated spaces. Someone just puts a label on the door as a guide. "I didn’t realise that last bit. So a man can use a ladies public toilet and vice versa? | |||
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"I hope their Tory vote was worth it  "So you're ASSUMING that they voted Tory. How does that work out then? | |||
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"Ok; trans persons view on a trans persons paperwork here. The fact that I was born with a penis caused me many years of distress. Distress that drove me to consider mutilating my own body with a Stanley knife when I was 18. When my surgery was delayed during lockdown I knew logically that I would still get my body fixed in time. That didn’t stop me getting to the point where I knew I was losing the ability to be rational and had to reach out to a friend to distract myself before I took my own life. It was the closest I’ve ever got. When someone misgenders me or uses my old name it cuts me to the core. It burns inside. I want to put my transition behind me and just live as my true self now. Something many of you seem to be happy for me to do.
There are some of you though, who want me to have to retain a very important piece of Paperwork in it’s origin al incorrect format. “Can’t change the past”.
No; true, however, I can change paperwork.
That doesn’t change that I was born with a penis but by changing the paperwork I can put that fact behind me a little more.
If I go to sell my house, like I am right now, I have to produce id. I’m lucky. I have a driving license and a passport. Not everyone has. So I didn’t have to produce my birth certificate. I have had to produce it several times recently. And then my deed poll and so on. I don’t want to have to keep explaining my existence.
MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE DOES NOT AFFECT ANYONE BUT ME.
so why does what it says bother anyone else but me?
Why do so many people feel so strongly they want to argue that I should have to put up with that distress for ever?
Someone explain that to me please, because I really don’t understand why you feel so strongly that you want to force me to keep something that causes me so much distress.
The kind of distress that almost ended my life recently.
I'm so sorry you felt like that. Wishing you a all the happiness in the future.
Jo.Xx
I just want people to understand.
I have my certificate to recognise my gender.
I will get my new birth certificate as a result.
That’s not debatable as it’s happening whatever anyone thinks.
I’ve always been able to use whatever loo I wanted as there is no law to say I can’t.
Loos aren’t legally designated spaces. Someone just puts a label on the door as a guide.
I didn’t realise that last bit. So a man can use a ladies public toilet and vice versa?"I thought the toilet thing was a law to be honest, just goes to show how much we know. Jo.Xx  | |||
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"Ok; trans persons view on a trans persons paperwork here. The fact that I was born with a penis caused me many years of distress. Distress that drove me to consider mutilating my own body with a Stanley knife when I was 18. When my surgery was delayed during lockdown I knew logically that I would still get my body fixed in time. That didn’t stop me getting to the point where I knew I was losing the ability to be rational and had to reach out to a friend to distract myself before I took my own life. It was the closest I’ve ever got. When someone misgenders me or uses my old name it cuts me to the core. It burns inside. I want to put my transition behind me and just live as my true self now. Something many of you seem to be happy for me to do.
There are some of you though, who want me to have to retain a very important piece of Paperwork in it’s origin al incorrect format. “Can’t change the past”.
No; true, however, I can change paperwork.
That doesn’t change that I was born with a penis but by changing the paperwork I can put that fact behind me a little more.
If I go to sell my house, like I am right now, I have to produce id. I’m lucky. I have a driving license and a passport. Not everyone has. So I didn’t have to produce my birth certificate. I have had to produce it several times recently. And then my deed poll and so on. I don’t want to have to keep explaining my existence.
MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE DOES NOT AFFECT ANYONE BUT ME.
so why does what it says bother anyone else but me?
Why do so many people feel so strongly they want to argue that I should have to put up with that distress for ever?
Someone explain that to me please, because I really don’t understand why you feel so strongly that you want to force me to keep something that causes me so much distress.
The kind of distress that almost ended my life recently.
I'm so sorry you felt like that. Wishing you a all the happiness in the future.
Jo.Xx
I just want people to understand.
I have my certificate to recognise my gender.
I will get my new birth certificate as a result.
That’s not debatable as it’s happening whatever anyone thinks.
I’ve always been able to use whatever loo I wanted as there is no law to say I can’t.
Loos aren’t legally designated spaces. Someone just puts a label on the door as a guide.
I didn’t realise that last bit. So a man can use a ladies public toilet and vice versa?
I thought the toilet thing was a law to be honest, just goes to show how much we know.
Jo.Xx "Me too. Well at least I learnt something today . And damned if I’m queuing at Wembley concerts again! I’ll be straight in the mens!! | |||
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"As far as I know there is no law reference loos. I know loads of women who’ve been desperate on a night out and can’t hang on in the queue and have used the men’s. The bit that always makes me laugh ref loos is that there are more trans men than women transitioning and hormones are really good at helping them reshape their bodies. I know several trans men who are ripped and I know of stacks more. Do you really want a ripped guy who may find women attractive in the loo with your daughter? I think she’s safer with me using the cubicle next to her tbh. I’m female. I haven’t got a penis and even when I did hormones ensured it didn’t really work. I’m not gay. I like men way more than women. And I’m not a paedophile !!!! If I were I’d be breaking the law. Using the loo doesn’t break the law!!! " It’s a difficult one. I wouldn’t want any man in the loo when my daughter went in to be honest. Although even at 12 I go in with her in public anyway. You’re a woman so it’s not the same but no I wouldn’t be keen on a man in the ladies toilet. | |||
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"Wouldn't changing a birth certificate be equivalent to lying? A trans man born a woman was still born a female regardless of how they identify now. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with identifying how you want but altering a birth certificate would be altering facts surely? This “identifying’ word is rather misleading. The bit people seem to miss is that your gender is defined by the gender of your brain. If your sy gene causes you to be born with a male brain, to use your example, but your chromosomes give you female genitalia then you’re not ‘identifying’ as male. You are male. You just have sex organs that don’t match. You can’t change the gender of your brain. Lots of so called scientists have tried. Same as they tried to change the brains of gay people. You can’t. You just are. So if you’re born with a brain who’s gender didn’t match your sex organs then your birth certificate was wrong. You can have surgery to sort your sex organs out, get the paperwork corrected and then get on with your life. That's the point isn't it...you're CORRECTING the paperwork if you're trans...not just "changing" it.
Lu " | |||
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"Just been down the Twitter rabbit hole on this one. Wish I hadn’t. "Check out JK Rowling's twitter for an even more depressing read | |||
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"As far as I know there is no law reference loos. I know loads of women who’ve been desperate on a night out and can’t hang on in the queue and have used the men’s. The bit that always makes me laugh ref loos is that there are more trans men than women transitioning and hormones are really good at helping them reshape their bodies. I know several trans men who are ripped and I know of stacks more. Do you really want a ripped guy who may find women attractive in the loo with your daughter? I think she’s safer with me using the cubicle next to her tbh. I’m female. I haven’t got a penis and even when I did hormones ensured it didn’t really work. I’m not gay. I like men way more than women. And I’m not a paedophile !!!! If I were I’d be breaking the law. Using the loo doesn’t break the law!!! It’s a difficult one. I wouldn’t want any man in the loo when my daughter went in to be honest. Although even at 12 I go in with her in public anyway. You’re a woman so it’s not the same but no I wouldn’t be keen on a man in the ladies toilet. " The problem is if you force people to use a loo according to their birth assigned gender I’ll be in the gents risking attack and the lovely ripped muscly trans men will be in the ladies. You can just apply it to one gender. There aren’t reams of attacks in any country where they allow trans people to use the correct loo. Nor where they have unisex loos. | |||
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"Just been down the Twitter rabbit hole on this one. Wish I hadn’t.
Check out JK Rowling's twitter for an even more depressing read "Please don’t let’s start talking about that cis woman who has been attacking trans women just for the hell of it. | |||
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"As far as I know there is no law reference loos. I know loads of women who’ve been desperate on a night out and can’t hang on in the queue and have used the men’s. The bit that always makes me laugh ref loos is that there are more trans men than women transitioning and hormones are really good at helping them reshape their bodies. I know several trans men who are ripped and I know of stacks more. Do you really want a ripped guy who may find women attractive in the loo with your daughter? I think she’s safer with me using the cubicle next to her tbh. I’m female. I haven’t got a penis and even when I did hormones ensured it didn’t really work. I’m not gay. I like men way more than women. And I’m not a paedophile !!!! If I were I’d be breaking the law. Using the loo doesn’t break the law!!! It’s a difficult one. I wouldn’t want any man in the loo when my daughter went in to be honest. Although even at 12 I go in with her in public anyway. You’re a woman so it’s not the same but no I wouldn’t be keen on a man in the ladies toilet. The problem is if you force people to use a loo according to their birth assigned gender I’ll be in the gents risking attack and the lovely ripped muscly trans men will be in the ladies. You can just apply it to one gender. There aren’t reams of attacks in any country where they allow trans people to use the correct loo. Nor where they have unisex loos. " Like I said. It is a difficult one. But you’re a woman, you should be using the ladies toilets as far as I’m concerned. It’s another topic for another time I guess. Maybe single unisex toilets is the answer for the future. x | |||
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"Just been down the Twitter rabbit hole on this one. Wish I hadn’t.
Check out JK Rowling's twitter for an even more depressing read "Oh let's not  | |||
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"As far as I know there is no law reference loos. I know loads of women who’ve been desperate on a night out and can’t hang on in the queue and have used the men’s. The bit that always makes me laugh ref loos is that there are more trans men than women transitioning and hormones are really good at helping them reshape their bodies. I know several trans men who are ripped and I know of stacks more. Do you really want a ripped guy who may find women attractive in the loo with your daughter? I think she’s safer with me using the cubicle next to her tbh. I’m female. I haven’t got a penis and even when I did hormones ensured it didn’t really work. I’m not gay. I like men way more than women. And I’m not a paedophile !!!! If I were I’d be breaking the law. Using the loo doesn’t break the law!!! It’s a difficult one. I wouldn’t want any man in the loo when my daughter went in to be honest. Although even at 12 I go in with her in public anyway. You’re a woman so it’s not the same but no I wouldn’t be keen on a man in the ladies toilet. " I'm sure you wouldn't, and I agree with that sentiment because nor would I. You do frequently get male cleaners in ladies loos though, at motorway services, for example, and as long as people are in separate lockable cubicles I don't think it matters much tbh. The whole toilet thing is a red herring designed to play on people's fears and emotions, and propagated by anti-trans groups the world over. Transwomen are no threat to women, whatever some may say, even transwomen who haven't yet had surgery. The proposed amendments to the gender recognition act would have made the process far less daunting and bureaucratic for trans people, and would not have meant that folk could just change gender willy nilly. It would still have been a legal process with possible imprisonment for those who transgressed the law. As it stands at the moment, even a transwoman who has fully transitioned and lived as a woman for years, been on hormones for all that period, and has had gender reassignment surgery, can be refused a GRC if her submitted paperwork isn't correct. How can that be right? The whole process is very stressful, and can be costly too. No-one can have access to GRS unless they have a diagnosis of transsexualism from two separate psychologists, and yet the panel who decides on someone's life without ever having met them, can deny someone a GRC because of issues with paperwork. This is the reason many trans people do not even apply for a GRC in the first place. It's a ridiculous situation that does need reform. | |||
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"As far as I know there is no law reference loos. I know loads of women who’ve been desperate on a night out and can’t hang on in the queue and have used the men’s. The bit that always makes me laugh ref loos is that there are more trans men than women transitioning and hormones are really good at helping them reshape their bodies. I know several trans men who are ripped and I know of stacks more. Do you really want a ripped guy who may find women attractive in the loo with your daughter? I think she’s safer with me using the cubicle next to her tbh. I’m female. I haven’t got a penis and even when I did hormones ensured it didn’t really work. I’m not gay. I like men way more than women. And I’m not a paedophile !!!! If I were I’d be breaking the law. Using the loo doesn’t break the law!!! It’s a difficult one. I wouldn’t want any man in the loo when my daughter went in to be honest. Although even at 12 I go in with her in public anyway. You’re a woman so it’s not the same but no I wouldn’t be keen on a man in the ladies toilet. The problem is if you force people to use a loo according to their birth assigned gender I’ll be in the gents risking attack and the lovely ripped muscly trans men will be in the ladies. You can just apply it to one gender. There aren’t reams of attacks in any country where they allow trans people to use the correct loo. Nor where they have unisex loos. Like I said. It is a difficult one. But you’re a woman, you should be using the ladies toilets as far as I’m concerned. It’s another topic for another time I guess. Maybe single unisex toilets is the answer for the future. x " I think Europe is sort of set up like that right? As school kids we went past the men to get to the ladies i think? As a teen/20s/30s i often used the mens ff the ladies was busy | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. " The bit I fail to understand, and I think I’m a fairly intelligent person, is why this cis woman has such an issue with people like us. | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. " There was an excellent interview with Judith Butler in the New Statesman recently on this. *fangirl* | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. The bit I fail to understand, and I think I’m a fairly intelligent person, is why this cis woman has such an issue with people like us. " I do not know. It's certainly tainted her work for me. | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. The bit I fail to understand, and I think I’m a fairly intelligent person, is why this cis woman has such an issue with people like us. I do not know. It's certainly tainted her work for me." My kids have tattoos because of their love of HP. They’re mortified. | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. The bit I fail to understand, and I think I’m a fairly intelligent person, is why this cis woman has such an issue with people like us. " It's all part of pretending to be victimised to validate her ignorant views. It's now said she is a victim of misogyny because people are going after her as she is a TERF.  | |||
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"The trans community and its allies must stick together as the rights we have won could easily be reversed especially in the state of turbulence the world is in now. " Solidarity xx | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. The bit I fail to understand, and I think I’m a fairly intelligent person, is why this cis woman has such an issue with people like us. It's all part of pretending to be victimised to validate her ignorant views. It's now said she is a victim of misogyny because people are going after her as she is a TERF. "But apparently TERF is a slur Umm if you're going to be part of a Trans Exclusionary Radical (apparent) subset of Feminism... It rather follows. | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. The bit I fail to understand, and I think I’m a fairly intelligent person, is why this cis woman has such an issue with people like us. It's all part of pretending to be victimised to validate her ignorant views. It's now said she is a victim of misogyny because people are going after her as she is a TERF. "No doubt she'll be protesting about cancel culture again, whilst at the same time threatening people who call her out with legal action. Hypocrite. | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. The bit I fail to understand, and I think I’m a fairly intelligent person, is why this cis woman has such an issue with people like us. It's all part of pretending to be victimised to validate her ignorant views. It's now said she is a victim of misogyny because people are going after her as she is a TERF.
No doubt she'll be protesting about cancel culture again, whilst at the same time threatening people who call her out with legal action. Hypocrite."
Apparently some people are threatening her. I don't for a minute support or condone that. But in the grand scheme she's not exactly the victim here. Using her significant influence to shit on a marginalised group then bitching when people don't want to hear it.
Boo hoo help she's so oppressed. | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. The bit I fail to understand, and I think I’m a fairly intelligent person, is why this cis woman has such an issue with people like us. It's all part of pretending to be victimised to validate her ignorant views. It's now said she is a victim of misogyny because people are going after her as she is a TERF.
No doubt she'll be protesting about cancel culture again, whilst at the same time threatening people who call her out with legal action. Hypocrite.
Apparently some people are threatening her. I don't for a minute support or condone that. But in the grand scheme she's not exactly the victim here. Using her significant influence to shit on a marginalised group then bitching when people don't want to hear it.
Boo hoo help she's so oppressed."She is digging her heels in and doubling down. She is now promoting a 'radical feminist' store which sells blatantly transphobic stuff. Stuff that says "Transwomen are men", "Transition is conversion therapy" and "Transmen are my sisters". The mask is off | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. The bit I fail to understand, and I think I’m a fairly intelligent person, is why this cis woman has such an issue with people like us. It's all part of pretending to be victimised to validate her ignorant views. It's now said she is a victim of misogyny because people are going after her as she is a TERF.
No doubt she'll be protesting about cancel culture again, whilst at the same time threatening people who call her out with legal action. Hypocrite.
Apparently some people are threatening her. I don't for a minute support or condone that. But in the grand scheme she's not exactly the victim here. Using her significant influence to shit on a marginalised group then bitching when people don't want to hear it.
Boo hoo help she's so oppressed.
She is digging her heels in and doubling down.
She is now promoting a 'radical feminist' store which sells blatantly transphobic stuff.
Stuff that says "Transwomen are men", "Transition is conversion therapy" and "Transmen are my sisters".
The mask is off "There's rumours that the pen name is a gay conversion therapist too. It's just nasty. | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. The bit I fail to understand, and I think I’m a fairly intelligent person, is why this cis woman has such an issue with people like us. It's all part of pretending to be victimised to validate her ignorant views. It's now said she is a victim of misogyny because people are going after her as she is a TERF.
No doubt she'll be protesting about cancel culture again, whilst at the same time threatening people who call her out with legal action. Hypocrite.
Apparently some people are threatening her. I don't for a minute support or condone that. But in the grand scheme she's not exactly the victim here. Using her significant influence to shit on a marginalised group then bitching when people don't want to hear it.
Boo hoo help she's so oppressed.
She is digging her heels in and doubling down.
She is now promoting a 'radical feminist' store which sells blatantly transphobic stuff.
Stuff that says "Transwomen are men", "Transition is conversion therapy" and "Transmen are my sisters".
The mask is off
There's rumours that the pen name is a gay conversion therapist too.
It's just nasty."It's not a rumour, it's true. Speaks volumes really. | |||
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"See j k Rowling using controversy to pedal her latest tedious novel. Hitting on the trans community, portraying us has sick deviants and murderers, is completely unacceptable,. I like what miriam margoles, said about acting in them Harry Potter films, she never watches them or reads the books, just takes the money, good for her I say. I find them Potter films very boring, along with those Lord of the bores, films. Psycho is a good film,though. The bit I fail to understand, and I think I’m a fairly intelligent person, is why this cis woman has such an issue with people like us. It's all part of pretending to be victimised to validate her ignorant views. It's now said she is a victim of misogyny because people are going after her as she is a TERF.
No doubt she'll be protesting about cancel culture again, whilst at the same time threatening people who call her out with legal action. Hypocrite.
Apparently some people are threatening her. I don't for a minute support or condone that. But in the grand scheme she's not exactly the victim here. Using her significant influence to shit on a marginalised group then bitching when people don't want to hear it.
Boo hoo help she's so oppressed.
She is digging her heels in and doubling down.
She is now promoting a 'radical feminist' store which sells blatantly transphobic stuff.
Stuff that says "Transwomen are men", "Transition is conversion therapy" and "Transmen are my sisters".
The mask is off
There's rumours that the pen name is a gay conversion therapist too.
It's just nasty.
It's not a rumour, it's true. Speaks volumes really. "She denies it, which is why I said rumour. But yes, it does speak volumes. | |||
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"To be fair if a someone turns up to hospital and the doctors look up and find out it's a woman treat her wrong because she is really a guy. Doctors need to know all the info to treat you in the right way" You don’t produce your birth certificate in hospital. If I go to hospital, which is something I’ve done a fair bit of recently, I tell them I’m trans if it’s likely to be relevant. I went to the eye hospital due to my glaucoma: they don’t need to know I’m trans. I went in regarding an infection post op ‘down there’ I explained I was trans before they examined me. | |||
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"To be fair if a someone turns up to hospital and the doctors look up and find out it's a woman treat her wrong because she is really a guy. Doctors need to know all the info to treat you in the right way" If they need to confirm I have ovaries they can look at my medical records or give me an external ultrasound. Don't need to know that I was born on a Monday afternoon in X place to (mum name) and (dad name) for that | |||
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"To be fair if a someone turns up to hospital and the doctors look up and find out it's a woman treat her wrong because she is really a guy. Doctors need to know all the info to treat you in the right way You don’t produce your birth certificate in hospital. If I go to hospital, which is something I’ve done a fair bit of recently, I tell them I’m trans if it’s likely to be relevant. I went to the eye hospital due to my glaucoma: they don’t need to know I’m trans. I went in regarding an infection post op ‘down there’ I explained I was trans before they examined me. " And yeah it comes up under medical history. Name DOB medical conditions, medications, surgeries. Shouldn't be a big deal and separate issue from ID. | |||
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"To be fair if a someone turns up to hospital and the doctors look up and find out it's a woman treat her wrong because she is really a guy. Doctors need to know all the info to treat you in the right way" And for the record; I’m really a woman. Medically I’m pretty much the same as any woman who’s had a hysterectomy. | |||
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"To be fair if a someone turns up to hospital and the doctors look up and find out it's a woman treat her wrong because she is really a guy. Doctors need to know all the info to treat you in the right way" You know they keep medical records don’t you not sure which hospitals you’re attending,that they need to see your birth certificate. | |||
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"To be fair if a someone turns up to hospital and the doctors look up and find out it's a woman treat her wrong because she is really a guy. Doctors need to know all the info to treat you in the right way You know they keep medical records don’t you not sure which hospitals you’re attending,that they need to see your birth certificate. "Yeah I'm not sure I've ever showed my birth certificate at hospital | |||
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"To be fair if a someone turns up to hospital and the doctors look up and find out it's a woman treat her wrong because she is really a guy. Doctors need to know all the info to treat you in the right way And for the record; I’m really a woman. Medically I’m pretty much the same as any woman who’s had a hysterectomy. " I’d just like to say thanks Rachel for all your input on this thread. It’s been very interesting to read. I also feel for your friend who travels a lot, I wish her well in the future. | |||
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"To be fair if a someone turns up to hospital and the doctors look up and find out it's a woman treat her wrong because she is really a guy. Doctors need to know all the info to treat you in the right way And for the record; I’m really a woman. Medically I’m pretty much the same as any woman who’s had a hysterectomy. I’d just like to say thanks Rachel for all your input on this thread. It’s been very interesting to read. I also feel for your friend who travels a lot, I wish her well in the future. " You’re welcome. I’m all for people having opinions and debate but I fail to understand how some people passionately argue against trans people being able to put nature’s mistakes behind them. I cannot see why my birth certificate is of such concern to people who will never meet me. Even if our paths did cross do they honestly feel I should be waving a flag warning them I once had a deformity beneath my clothes? I’m not talking about if we were considering sleeping together.... I’m simply talking about a piece of paper that means so much to me that resides unseen in my safe at home. For some reason the thought of my peace of mind is abhorrent to people I don’t know. | |||
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"It's a proposed change to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act to remove the requirement for two "gender dysphoria" diagnoses before you're allowed to change your birth certificate. Other countries such as Ireland don't need this bureaucratic medical requirement - no reason why we should. Also, the proposal has had support from doctors via the BMA. To give some context, Australia was among the first countries to recognise non-binary classification on birth certificates. There, transgender people don't even need to have had surgery to ask that their birth certificate be corrected. It appears from press reports that the government was going to move with this proposal, but might now be pulling back. I hope they don't; I assume it's another of those issues that would have been dealt with sensibly until the usual suspects started professing their shock and horror to the government." Yes. Too much of the usual suspects. | |||
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"Is it to stop Male prisoners saying they're female?" No, thats just a scare story TERF groups use to whip up anti trans sentiment in the general populace. (deleted my previous message as forgot to quote) | |||
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"Is it to stop Male prisoners saying they're female?" I did wonder how long it would take Mr. Troll to appear. | |||
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"Is it to stop Male prisoners saying they're female? No, thats just a scare story TERF groups use to whip up anti trans sentiment in the general populace. (deleted my previous message as forgot to quote)" Oh so guys can still do that then. | |||
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"Is it to stop Male prisoners saying they're female? No, thats just a scare story TERF groups use to whip up anti trans sentiment in the general populace. (deleted my previous message as forgot to quote) Oh so guys can still do that then. "It's best to try and ignore Clems provocative posts if possible, because they're a bit like dog shit. Unpleasant to look at, but if you don't tread in it, no harm done. | |||
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