FabSwingers.com forum: Church Against Gay Marriage

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Church of England warns that legalising gay marriage could undermine the status of marriage.

The Church believes that 'marriage' is a union of a man and a women.

Are they out of step or do they have a point?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

out of step i believe

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By (user no longer on site)
Forum Mod
over a year ago

A marriage is a union of 2 people in love

I don't see that the gender of those 2 people matter

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Church of England warns that legalising gay marriage could undermine the status of marriage.

The Church believes that 'marriage' is a union of a man and a women.

Are they out of step or do they have a point?"

Heard some really discussions on this on LBC 97.3 in the London area recently. One caller made a very interesting point about where this dogma about gay marriage comes from. When the Christian church was a new cult (which it was for some time) the number of followers was everything. So, encouraging gay marriage at that time would have meant no offspring, and thus no new members in the next generation for the cult/religion. So it was in their interests to discourage it. 2000 years down the line and ardent Christians only 'see' the dogma and take it as the 'word of God' - not dissect it clinically to see what lies behind it.

Marriage is all about love isn't it? If that happens to be between two people of the same sex, then what's the problem??

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By *londeCazWoman
over a year ago

Arse End of the Universe, Cumbria

Bible sez man shall not lie with man (or something along those lines), church follows teachings of bible, church against gay marriage.....simple as far as I'm concerned

I believe civil partnerships give same rights as a marriage, I'd be happy with that if I wanted a same sex marriage, same as seeing as I'm a divorcee, I wouldn't expect the right to a church marriage were I to remarry

Everyone is entitled to their own belief, if as a Christian they believe gay sex to be wrong, then I defend their right to that belief even as I'm going down on a sexy girl

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

I don't actually believe in gay marriage, civil partnerships... yes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I dont believe in gay marriage but a legal union of a gay couple is fine with me. Im not particularly religious, just my opinion

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I believe civil partnerships give same rights as a marriage, "

Not quite which is why people are still pushing for same sex marriages.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The only issue I have with gay marriage is that they then have more rights than a heterosexual couple who live together with or without children.

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By *inkyScot22Man
over a year ago

Anniesland

"Church of England warns that legalising gay marriage could undermine the status of marriage.

The Church believes that 'marriage' is a union of a man and a women.

Are they out of step or do they have a point?"

They are out of step. Marriage does not belong to religion because marriage does not belong to any individual religion, if judaism were to declare all christian marriages invalid, would that change the law? No.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I kinda guess if religions wants to behave in a way that rejects civil rights attempting to maintain a moralistic stand based on ancient doctrines, they must also accept respect for their faith will devalue with every new generation as tolerance replaces fear in the minds of the masses...

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By *histler21Man
over a year ago

Ipswich

"Church of England warns that legalising gay marriage could undermine the status of marriage.

The Church believes that 'marriage' is a union of a man and a women.

Are they out of step or do they have a point?"

I think it will undermine 'marriage'.

Civil partnership legilation seems to be quite adequate to my mind - and can't see the need to change this.

I see this piece of legislation as just being unnecessary. And will potentially just open up loads of legal challenges (and will end up in the European Courts...) which have to be paid for somewhere along the line. Mostly out of the public purse.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

I think it will undermine 'marriage'.

How, exactly?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The only issue I have with gay marriage is that they then have more rights than a heterosexual couple who live together with or without children."

Do they ?

Oooh I never knew that !

Might have to give that a try

Not that I'm particularly up for marrying anyone

It's just a while since I've given the Daily Mail readers any cause for outrage !

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By *ushroom7Man
over a year ago

Bradford

The Anglican church have a preference.

Well bugger me.

It's all fine and dandy when it matches your own preference ain't it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I am catholic....i have no problem with same sex coupkes..however i do not see why churches shud be 'forced' against there beliefs to marry same sex couples..go have a civil partnership.....people who say that it undermines marriage..i think they are coming from the standpoint that marriage is meant to be linked with family ie man, woman and children....people have already undermined mariage themselves by getting divorces...same sex couples didnt do that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Church of England warns that legalising gay marriage could undermine the status of marriage.

The Church believes that 'marriage' is a union of a man and a women.

Are they out of step or do they have a point?

I think it will undermine 'marriage'.

Civil partnership legilation seems to be quite adequate to my mind - and can't see the need to change this.

I would have thought unless same sex couples have religious belief, the act of a religious marriage ceremony is less meaningful,

However in the case where same sex couples do hold a faith, it would be a very important ritual for them.

So in a case where they wouldn’t be allowed to marry within their own faith,,,, I believe this undermines their chosen religion rather than undermines the sanctity of marriage….!.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Perhaps civil partnerships could be the official status and religious marriages could be available (carrying no extra legal rights or privileges) for those who wish to be married in the sight of their particular belief/God.

However, I do think that if you choose a belief system it should surely be one that you are prepared to respect as it is? Rather like choosing a partner.

It all goes wrong when you get together with someone and then try to change them and the same could apply to belief systems, could it not?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I can see where the Church is coming from if you consider how the institution of marriage came about. Here's the scenario:

Judea 600BC, about tea-time, (or whenever for the pedants):

Two men approach the village elder laying claim to the same woman.

The village elder asks who claimed her first, both men reply with 'I did!'

They both can't have her so the elder asks each man what he's prepared to offer for her. One man offers five camels and the other has nothing to give, so the man with five camels wins the woman but the elder, eager to head off any other claims to the woman, declares them to be man & wife (and conducts a little ceremony to make it look official). He calls this contract "Marriage" and has it incorporated into the scriptures as sent from God and then he sets about writing out the rules etc.

Here's where the homosexual aspect kicks in. He can't come up with a workable solution for two men laying claim to another man so he declares it a BIG no-no and anyone caught doing it is fucked, cos it gives him a right headache trying to sort it out (women do as they're told anyway so if a man wants his wife to make out with another girl that's his business - it's a shitty deal for women but that's early humanity for ya).

The Church (Catholic, Protestant or otherwise) forgot to re-address this issue 2,000 years later and really need to have another look at it, cos it's silly to say two people of the same sex can't get married in Church.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I see all marriages as civil partnerships, getting married in a church, mosque, synagogue, or wherever is just a personal choice of venue. I welcome any legislation that gives equal rights to couples regardless of their sexuality. At the moment a homosexual couple in a civil partnership do not have the same rights as a heterosexual married couple. It is high time to sort this out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Church of England warns that legalising gay marriage could undermine the status of marriage.

The Church believes that 'marriage' is a union of a man and a women.

Are they out of step or do they have a point?"

everyone is allowed their beliefs, if the church believes people of the same sex shouldnt marry thats upto them and they have every rights to believe that what they dont have the rights to do is force their beliefs down other peoples throats, b ut hasnt that always been the hall mark of religion?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I see all marriages as civil partnerships, getting married in a church, mosque, synagogue, or wherever is just a personal choice of venue. I welcome any legislation that gives equal rights to couples regardless of their sexuality. At the moment a homosexual couple in a civil partnership do not have the same rights as a heterosexual married couple. It is high time to sort this out."

Agree with this approach but do not agree that religions should change to keep their customers. Surely then religions would just be like clubs, changing according to their membership?

If religion becomes outdated and people choose not to follow it, then so be it. That's evolution for ya!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Church of England warns that legalising gay marriage could undermine the status of marriage.

The Church believes that 'marriage' is a union of a man and a women.

Are they out of step or do they have a point?

I would go with that, people can have an opinion even if you dont like it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the church are so outdated now.

they try and give this impression of love and kindness but all i see is hatred and about everything wrong with what a decent person should be like.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I often wonder how many couples go through the marriage ceremony for purely religious reasons as opposed to legal/financial security?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I often wonder how many couples go through the marriage ceremony for purely religious reasons as opposed to legal/financial security?"

I've done it twice and left quite a gap between them as most of the pressies from the first one had either broken or been passed on to someone else. A second wedding is a good opportunity to restock.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

for most people the church are not just out of step,they become more irrelevant in peoples lives as every day goes by

It's a niche hobby

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"for most people the church are not just out of step,they become more irrelevant in peoples lives as every day goes by

It's a niche hobby"

I hope I live to see the day when religion is outlawed completely. I doubt I will but I'd sure love to be there when it happens.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"for most people the church are not just out of step,they become more irrelevant in peoples lives as every day goes by

It's a niche hobby

I hope I live to see the day when religion is outlawed completely. I doubt I will but I'd sure love to be there when it happens."

Ah! I wouldn't want it outlawed.Some people take great comfort from their faith and I'm truly happy for them. I just take no notice when they start pontificating about things that shouldn't really be in their remit other than referencing a 2000 year old book thats not supposed to be taken literally. But then I take no notice as its not on my radar. For someone who practises a religion that preaches tolerence and forgiveness to liken homosexuality to bestiality is deplorable and should be condemned at every available opportunity. Problem is they're minds are so closed they don't hear it anyway

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It will be interesting to see if, state having interfered with church.... Church will be accorded the same privilege...

Or is a bullshit minority coalition government just pandering for a few more votes...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Brushes all the other far more important issues for the government to sort out under the carpet for now! don't it???

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

I, as a divorcee cannot marry in some churches but a same sex couple can.

Believe it or not life isn't fair, we're not all equal and we don't always get what we want. I wouldn't expect the world to change for me.

Funny, during the Jubilee celebrations much was made of the monarchy being a constant and it shouldn't change yet the same people want the church to change to accommodate them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

heaven forbid the church never changed. we'd still be stoning adulteresses and burning witches

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I, as a divorcee cannot marry in some churches but a same sex couple can.

Believe it or not life isn't fair, we're not all equal and we don't always get what we want. I wouldn't expect the world to change for me.

Funny, during the Jubilee celebrations much was made of the monarchy being a constant and it shouldn't change yet the same people want the church to change to accommodate them."

The royal family, famously of the church of England since the 16th century, are not proposing to marry same sex in a religious context.... A marriage in the eyes of god...;-)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"the church are so outdated now.

they try and give this impression of love and kindness but all i see is hatred and about everything wrong with what a decent person should be like.

Of course you being a regular church goer and practicing religious believer...

I bow to your expert testimony...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I personally don't see why same sex couples cannot call their bond a marriage, just as I can't understand why a non-religious hetro-sexual couple cannot call their union a civil partnership. I don't believe in marriage, but I don't believe in God, JC or some guy in a frock telling me that I am betrothed to another human being until death do us part (or one of us files for divorce!). I believe that a person should be allowed to express their love in a way that suits them, and if that is a marriage then so be it. Most of the bible, and other religious books, are open to interpretation by the individual, and society has changed greatly since these books were written.

For example Leviticus who claims same sex couples are an abomination later says that tattoos are wrong...so are all church goers inspected for these markings before they are allowed into the house of God? No, they are allowed in and allowed to pray and even get married!

How many of these protesting so much about same sex marriages make sure they don't work on the Sabbath in order to keep it holy? People already pick and chose which bits if their faith they follow, why should sexuality (which isn't really a choice lets be honest) be any different?

The downfall of society has nothing to do with who people love, it's a lack of respect and tolerance for each other.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

im not even gonna respond to half the comments ive just read :-/ church is so outdated...to those perhaps who do not have the faith...funny that..i just had a lovely sun going to church and celebrating my sons fist holy communion with all the other children, their familys as well as ours and my friends..perhaps people should keep their opinions to themselves when they dont understand

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hi all im not against gay people but being a christian i believe marriage is between man and woman i love my children and friends but doesnt mean i want to marry them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

why shud the church be forced to allow it...u dont see them forcing every1 who gets married in any other way to have a blessing :-/

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By *U1966Man
over a year ago

Devon

I do not support the church on anything but on this i do the thought of my ex wife marrying her partner in church would make a mockery of what my daughter is being tought in the catholic shool my ex has decided to send her to

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The Church knows it must modernise but it must also face the fact that if it does it too quickly it will alienate it's already falling congregations even further. Whilst I am not religious myself I do recognise the morality that the Church instills in people and without the religion there would be chaos & anarchy. As science moves forward in leaps and bounds many of the bible's teachings will be explained or disproved one way or another, and I'm sure the Church will find a new explanation to make it fit in with ancient teachings. Things like abortion or same-sex marriages the Church can give ground on when it feels it absolutely has to give something back in return for keeping some of it's more sacred doctrines. The Church will adapt but only when it feels it can afford to.

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By *ushroom7Man
over a year ago

Bradford

"The Church knows it must modernise but it must also face the fact that if it does it too quickly it will alienate it's already falling congregations even further. Whilst I am not religious myself I do recognise the morality that the Church instills in people and without the religion there would be chaos & anarchy. As science moves forward in leaps and bounds many of the bible's teachings will be explained or disproved one way or another, and I'm sure the Church will find a new explanation to make it fit in with ancient teachings. Things like abortion or same-sex marriages the Church can give ground on when it feels it absolutely has to give something back in return for keeping some of it's more sacred doctrines. The Church will adapt but only when it feels it can afford to."

The church is more likely to die if it is forced to accept gay marriages. Just more quickly maybe.

One wonders what the Government and lobby groups real agenda is.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"why shud the church be forced to allow it...u dont see them forcing every1 who gets married in any other way to have a blessing :-/"

Actually the church can not be forced to engage in religious same sex marriage...

When this bunch of halfwits from Westminster manage to sidetrack the nation from an argument which even the court of human rights cannot impose... They will still have to address the real political issues of the day... If they can...;-)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" The church is more likely to die if it is forced to accept gay marriages. Just more quickly maybe.

One wonders what the Government and lobby groups real agenda is.

On the contrary, I think the Church could enhance it's reputation if it modernises and recognises gay people as equal human beings in the eyes of God. Many people would welcome the Church announcing that it fully endorses same-sex marriages. I'd certainly think a lot more of the Church if it shook off these antiquated rules it has regarding homosexuality - especially when a lot of it's bloody priests are perverts.

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By *ushroom7Man
over a year ago

Bradford

" The church is more likely to die if it is forced to accept gay marriages. Just more quickly maybe.

One wonders what the Government and lobby groups real agenda is.

Have you seen much of it's current congregation?

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By *ayjay999Man
over a year ago

God made a man for a women ... How ever being a lesbian or gay is not wrong but if you go as far as marriage ie church that's out of order and just not right... The church is very right to say it's wrong coz religiously is wrong... So please keep it in the bedroom

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" The church is more likely to die if it is forced to accept gay marriages. Just more quickly maybe.

One wonders what the Government and lobby groups real agenda is.

Have you seen much of it's current congregation?

Only at hatches, matches & dispatches. Don't go any other time.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"A marriage is a union of 2 people in love

I don't see that the gender of those 2 people matter"

spot on...

will it make the worldstop turning if two people of the same gender 'marry' in church...nope

basically its about a small group of out of touch men scared that part of their influence or control will be diminished..

all in 'gods' name of course...

most folk dont give a toss..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Have you seen much of it's current congregation?

Oi...!! I resemble that remark...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i disagree i think most people who do follow the faith do actually as u so eleganetly put it..give a toss

"A marriage is a union of 2 people in love

I don't see that the gender of those 2 people matter

spot on...

will it make the worldstop turning if two people of the same gender 'marry' in church...nope

basically its about a small group of out of touch men scared that part of their influence or control will be diminished..

all in 'gods' name of course...

most folk dont give a toss.."

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"God made a man for a women ... How ever being a lesbian or gay is not wrong but if you go as far as marriage ie church that's out of order and just not right... The church is very right to say it's wrong coz religiously is wrong... So please keep it in the bedroom

with respect m8 thats a crock..

so its ok for 'gay' folk to save your life at an rtc, or on an operating table or give you the blood you require to live but if that same person wishes to have a service in a 'church' then thats 'not right'..

that smacks of homophobia tbh

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"i disagree i think most people who do follow the faith do actually as u so eleganetly put it..give a toss

Then why don't they have the courage of their convictions and accept all people, gay or otherwise, as equal in the eyes of God? They can't have it all their own way as it's hypocritical.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"i disagree i think most people who do follow the faith do actually as u so eleganetly put it..give a toss

A marriage is a union of 2 people in love

I don't see that the gender of those 2 people matter

spot on...

will it make the worldstop turning if two people of the same gender 'marry' in church...nope

basically its about a small group of out of touch men scared that part of their influence or control will be diminished..

all in 'gods' name of course...

most folk dont give a toss.."

respect your opinion however there will be many area's of 'the faith' that those same folk will have 'transgressed'..

human nature being what it is etc..

live and let live perhaps?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"why shud the church be forced to allow it...u dont see them forcing every1 who gets married in any other way to have a blessing :-/"

You don't have to go to a church to be married though...a registrar can perform a marriage for a hetro-sexual couple, so why not a same sex couple? I am not religious in anyway, but if I was to want to legally document a relationship with a partner it would be called a marriage so I don't really see the difference in allowing a same sex (possibly religious) couple to be granted the same rights to be married rather than in a civil partnership...it doesn't really have the same charm to it!

And as for forcing a church to perform the ceremony...would anyone really want have their union take place in a building that condones their actions? I could be wrong, but I think most same sex couples would either not marry in a church, or would find a congregation that supports their choice rather than want to force the hand of someone to perform a ceremony that they don't truly give their blessing to x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

im not going to argue with any of you and i have alray stated my opinions of why I as a catholic do not agree with it i shall not be repeating myself. Also the way some of you ave responded makes my skin boil tbh. u sit there and say the church are wrong and being disrcimnatory but then look at some of your comments you have all put makes me sick and i find them very offensive

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

gonna look a right dumbass here but i thought that same sex marriages aready existed.....i even went to a ceremony in a registrar office last year wearing a stupid hat

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"I don't actually believe in gay marriage, civil partnerships... yes.

Ditto

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

with respect m8 thats a crock..

that smacks of homophobia tbh "

Its not a crock... Its an opinion...

And in a world where the European Court of Human Rights upholds freedom of speech and belief equally... Same sex couples are free to have a civil marriage, as are opposing sex couples... But not in a religious building before God...

The argument is moot and a red herring from Westminster...;-)

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

with respect m8 thats a crock..

that smacks of homophobia tbh

Its not a crock... Its an opinion...

The argument is moot and a red herring from Westminster...;-)"

with respect imho its a crock..

as is all discriminatory behaviour, however and by whomever..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"gonna look a right dumbass here but i thought that same sex marriages aready existed.....i even went to a ceremony in a registrar office last year wearing a stupid hat

They aren't currently allowed to call it a marriage...it's a Civil Partnership. In principal it is the same, but it doesn't quite give all the rights a marriage does. For some reason the word 'Marriage' has become almost the property of religion, even though it's been around longer than most faiths! x

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"gonna look a right dumbass here but i thought that same sex marriages aready existed.....i even went to a ceremony in a registrar office last year wearing a stupid hat

cheers for that, i was really confused.

i might make my own religio and llw anyone to marry anyone and let the other religions who are against it crack on

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The only issue I have with gay marriage is that they then have more rights than a heterosexual couple who live together with or without children."

so you're saying they shouldn't have equal rights? if you get married you'll have the same rights... if they don't get married they have the same rights as a hetero couple which is not married...

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"The only issue I have with gay marriage is that they then have more rights than a heterosexual couple who live together with or without children.

so you're saying they shouldn't have equal rights? if you get married you'll have the same rights... if they don't get married they have the same rights as a hetero couple which is not married..."

do married straight couples get more rights that straight co-habitors? if so then when shouldnt a smae sex couple be afforded the same benefits?

this is frying my brain!!

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By *ayjay999Man
over a year ago

"Its not a crock... Its an opinion...

The argument is moot and a red herring from Westminster...;-)"

Thank you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Life is too short

If you love someone whether it be the same sex or not ... and you want to be married in church then you should be able to do it

Personally if I was gay I wouldn't want to get married in a place where my sexuality was deemed ' wrong and sinful'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"im not going to argue with any of you and i have alray stated my opinions of why I as a catholic do not agree with it i shall not be repeating myself. Also the way some of you ave responded makes my skin boil tbh. u sit there and say the church are wrong and being disrcimnatory but then look at some of your comments you have all put makes me sick and i find them very offensive "

I'm sorry if you find my opinion offensive, but I find the opinion of the church offensive...I don't understand why one 'type' of love should be deemed to be worth less than another

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Life is too short

If you love someone whether it be the same sex or not ... and you want to be married in church then you should be able to do it

Personally if I was gay I wouldn't want to get married in a place where my sexuality was deemed ' wrong and sinful'

Thing is, the change in law is only to legalise same sex marriage...not to force churches to carry out the marriage!

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

As marriage is a religious ceremony, it is up to the various religions how it is done. The Hebrews have no problems at all with gay couples marrying but I guess Christianity has a bit of catching up to do. However, although the government are looking to make it legal for gays to marry, they won't be making it compulsory. So although your local church might not do it, one up the road will.

Might take another 2000 years for Christianity to catch up with the rest of us, but it looks like it's getting there.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm sorry if you find my opinion offensive, but I find the opinion of the church offensive...I don't understand why one 'type' of love should be deemed to be worth less than another"

didnt say i found yours offensive or that i believed anyones love had more value over anyone elses...please read my first comments on the subject cba to repeat myself lol

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

discrimination is pretty sickening also..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't understand why gay people would want to get married in a church.

I think they should be allowed to get married in a registry office or the thousands of other places you can get wed these days, but I don't think churches should be forced by law to accommodate something they don't believe in.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

discrimination is pretty sickening also.."

no shit sherlock

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Marriage has nothing to do with love, it's a legal contract to provide a stable basis for bringing up children. Sometimes that doesn't happen, but that is the historical point. It's not like there is a clamour from people to enable gay marriage over and above say, sorting the economy out, so what's the point in pushing it now?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't understand why gay people would want to get married in a church.

exactly...me as a catholic aint gna wanna go getting maried in a sikh mosque am i ffs

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

discrimination is pretty sickening also..

no shit sherlock "

but its ok in your eyes?

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

There are a lot of gay religious people, who shouldn't be denied one of the ceremonies that is important to them.

Or shouldn't gays be allowed to christen their children, or have a church funeral?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

discrimination is pretty sickening also..

no shit sherlock

but its ok in your eyes?"

hahaha where have i said that??? as i have said numerous times read my comments from the beginning before accusing me of saying things ok....jeeezzzeee nt responding tou anythin you say anymore as you are just jumping to conclusions and making assumptions about me without actually reading my comments properly

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't understand why gay people would want to get married in a church.

They aren't going to be though...or at least not by our government. It's just that they can have a Civil Marriage rather than a Civil Partnership, so registry office, hotel, stately home, etc..not churches

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"i disagree i think most people who do follow the faith do actually as u so eleganetly put it..give a toss

Then why don't they have the courage of their convictions and accept all people, gay or otherwise, as equal in the eyes of God? They can't have it all their own way as it's hypocritical."

All people in the eyes of God are equal...

God however ordains that only male and female shall cleave together to bear fruit and multiply...

Any other combinations of humanity who wish to join together may do so but not in the sanctity of the church... This is not hypocrisy... It is recorded doctrine...;-)

That a civil or religious joining of two people has greater or lesser significance in law is a matter of State... Not Church... Which of itself is a totally separate premis from that which was originally posted.

This latter premis should be robustly challenged... The original premis continues to be moot.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are a lot of gay religious people, who shouldn't be denied one of the ceremonies that is important to them.

Or shouldn't gays be allowed to christen their children, or have a church funeral? "

in my opinion...no...just like if i decide to commit suicide i would be refused a religious funeral...if i make that decision then i must face the consequences just like in everything else in life

as with the children comment...the child can then when they are older if they wish can choose to be baptised etc and follow the faith

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"I don't understand why gay people would want to get married in a church.

exactly...me as a catholic aint gna wanna go getting maried in a sikh mosque am i ffs

but thats not the same thing...and maybe if you fell in love with a sikh man you would want to

as someone has said there are lots of gay people who are religious, why should they not be given the same right to be married in the house of their god?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are a lot of gay religious people, who shouldn't be denied one of the ceremonies that is important to them.

Or shouldn't gays be allowed to christen their children, or have a church funeral? "

I think a lot of people forget or don't believe that there are religious gay people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't know what the exceptions are. But I am told civil partnership does not have the same rights as marriage. WHY NOT? This is a newly written law. And they obviously got it wrong.

Marriage is a legal status not a religious one. Just so happens that all religious ministers are automatically legal registrars of marriage sort of government sub-contactors.

The religious part of the ceremony is actually nothing at all to with anything. So get he legal right equal. Allow those that want to perform same sex marriages but don't force those that don't as long as the legal rights are in place and legit then whats the problem?

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"in my opinion...no...just like if i decide to commit suicide i would be refused a religious funeral...if i make that decision then i must face the consequences just like in everything else in life

as with the children comment...the child can then when they are older if they wish can choose to be baptised etc and follow the faith"

I am atheist so don't really understand why anyone would want a religious ceremony. However I am shocked that someone who is a Christian would say something like the above. If you believe God is omnipotent then he made gays, like he made you and me, and therefore he will be a bit miffed when he finds out some of his children have been making some of the others scapegoats for all that is wrong in the world (and you know the Pope has said exactly that). And anyway, I would have thought the fact they are Christian, and therefore will not have to repent to get to your heaven, would trump the gay card in your eyes.

This is why religion is so infuriating. You keep moving the goal posts!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't understand why gay people would want to get married in a church.

exactly...me as a catholic aint gna wanna go getting maried in a sikh mosque am i ffs

but thats not the same thing...and maybe if you fell in love with a sikh man you would want to

as someone has said there are lots of gay people who are religious, why should they not be given the same right to be married in the house of their god?"

because the church doesnt believe in it. if i decided to be with a woman I wouldnt expect to be married in a church I would accept the consequences of my actions

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't know what the exceptions are. But I am told civil partnership does not have the same rights as marriage. WHY NOT? This is a newly written law. And they obviously got it wrong.

Marriage is a legal status not a religious one. Just so happens that all religious ministers are automatically legal registrars of marriage sort of government sub-contactors.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not happy to marry gay people but happy to cover up pedophile priests in Ireland ... i dont get it at all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't know what the exceptions are. But I am told civil partnership does not have the same rights as marriage. WHY NOT? This is a newly written law. And they obviously got it wrong.

Marriage is a legal status not a religious one. Just so happens that all religious ministers are automatically legal registrars of marriage sort of government sub-contactors.

That's basically what the government are proposing, but the church have decided that a change from a Civil Partnership to a Civil Marriage for same sex couples will be damaging to society and will lead to same sex couples demanding to be married in a church whether the individual congregation supports it or not.

[This is why religion is so infuriating. You keep moving the goal posts!]

Only when it suits them though!!

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"There are a lot of gay religious people, who shouldn't be denied one of the ceremonies that is important to them.

Or shouldn't gays be allowed to christen their children, or have a church funeral?

in my opinion...no...just like if i decide to commit suicide i would be refused a religious funeral...if i make that decision then i must face the consequences just like in everything else in life

as with the children comment...the child can then when they are older if they wish can choose to be baptised etc and follow the faith"

that is pretty much discrimination of the highest order..

and how intolerant to be of the _iew that two people, assume practising christians who want their kids brought up in the 'faith'should be denied..

staggering..

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"[This is why religion is so infuriating. You keep moving the goal posts!]

Only when it suits them though!!"

I know!

For the record, I am aware that other religions have equally bad attitudes towards gays. However this post is about Church of England (so no idea why the Catholics are getting miffed - as if the Pope would EVER allow gay marriage. He still won't allow condoms in AIDS ravaged countries) so luckily the only schism will be with hot words and thrown rich tea biscuits.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"in my opinion...no...just like if i decide to commit suicide i would be refused a religious funeral...if i make that decision then i must face the consequences just like in everything else in life

as with the children comment...the child can then when they are older if they wish can choose to be baptised etc and follow the faith

This is why religion is so infuriating. You keep moving the goal posts!"

like i said this is my opinion..everything ive said is my opinion...it is not a generalisation of everone who is a catholic, christian or any other religion it is (again) MY opinion. also I class myself as a roman catholic not just christian thanks. Any way..back to your comment...i havent said i had a problem with same sex couples i couldnt care less tbh i just dont believe that churches should be forced to do something that they do not agree with

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are a lot of gay religious people, who shouldn't be denied one of the ceremonies that is important to them.

Or shouldn't gays be allowed to christen their children, or have a church funeral?

in my opinion...no...just like if i decide to commit suicide i would be refused a religious funeral...if i make that decision then i must face the consequences just like in everything else in life

as with the children comment...the child can then when they are older if they wish can choose to be baptised etc and follow the faith

that is pretty much discrimination of the highest order..

and how intolerant to be of the _iew that two people, assume practising christians who want their kids brought up in the 'faith'should be denied..

staggering.. "

Yeah but if they've 'chosen' to be gay, then they mustn't be all that religious at all as they made an active decision to go against their faith and be with someone of the same sex. (PS that's sarcasm for anyone that can't spot it!)

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"i just dont believe that churches should be forced to do something that they do not agree with

Well, its not going to be a problem for you Catholics is it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i give up cba just getting bored now

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"in my opinion...no...just like if i decide to commit suicide i would be refused a religious funeral...if i make that decision then i must face the consequences just like in everything else in life

as with the children comment...the child can then when they are older if they wish can choose to be baptised etc and follow the faith

This is why religion is so infuriating. You keep moving the goal posts!

THEY AREN'T THOUGH!!!! Sorry, but had to put that in Capitals as so far no-one seems to have picked up on it. The marriages will continue to be a civil union, but will be legally recognised as a marriage not a partnership and so ensure equal rights. I have copied and pasted this from the BBC website:

Home Office consultation paper proposals

- to allow same-sex couples to marry in a register office or other civil ceremony

- to retain civil partnerships for same-sex couples and allow couples already in a civil partnership to convert it into a marriage

- to allow people to stay married and legally change their gender

- to maintain the legal ban on same-sex couples marrying in a religious service

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the church are against gay marriage? yet a helluva lot of clergymen think its OK to lift their cassocks and fiddle with the alter boys???

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"the church are against gay marriage? yet a helluva lot of clergymen think its OK to lift their cassocks and fiddle with the alter boys??? "

But they're not proposing while they're down there, are they?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

would class myself as agnostic/atheist however not anti religion whatever its type..

there are some fantastic people doing awesome stuff within 'our's and other' communities..

not even sure i agree that any government should or could be able to 'force' by legislation something that that religion is opposed to..

but against that i cannot abide by discrimination and therein lies the rub..

most religious folk are happy to ignore many parts of the writings and rules of their particular choice, but pick and choose others to live by..

human nature or hypocracy it happens, why not just live and let live..

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By *londeCazWoman
over a year ago

Arse End of the Universe, Cumbria

"heaven forbid the church never changed. we'd still be stoning adulteresses and burning witches"

We still do that in Arse End....don't the rest of you?????

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"[This is why religion is so infuriating. You keep moving the goal posts!]

Only when it suits them though!!

I know!

Don't get me started on the pope (or any other religious leader for that matter)! I'm focusing purely on marriage in this post otherwise I really would be causing offence! Daft thing is, the church are up in arms over it and nothing is actually changing for them...these marriages will still be secular, not religious

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"Daft thing is, the church are up in arms over it and nothing is actually changing for them...these marriages will still be secular, not religious"

Gods forbid the religion that oppresses many minorities might feel oppressed for a short while.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Not happy to marry gay people but happy to cover up pedophile priests in Ireland ... i dont get it at all."

That would be the Catholic Church then eh? Not the Church of England, which is the church at the focal point of this issue.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" And anyway, I would have thought the fact they are Christian, and therefore WILL HAVE TO repent to get to their heaven...

This is why religion is so infuriating. You keep moving the goal posts!"

How do I know if the goalposts have changed if I am not sure where they were in the first place...?

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

The CofE has too much power as it is, from their stances on many things, they should be disconnected from the state.

They are scaremongering, and the proposed law is not dictating that churches have to perform marriages for same sex couples in the slightest. The proposed law would allow civil marriages, as many other countries do around the world, including European countries.

The church is just becoming ever more out of touch with the UK people that are giving it the tax breaks worth £millions. They have too much power governing us, via the House of Lords Bishops, who vote on our legislation etc, and I'd be happy to see that go, so that only officials elected by the population can do this.

2 people getting married does not affect anyone other than them. As adults, that should be their concern, and no-one else's.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" 2 people getting married does not affect anyone other than them. As adults, that should be their concern, and no-one else's."

Agreed... As long as they are not making it anyone elses business... Like that of the single place which does not wish to marry them. There are many other options open to them...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 13/06/12 13:25:18]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well I suppose that if the C of E refuses to permit gay marriages there will be a lot of vicars who will remain bachelors for the rest of their lives.

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

Ok there are a few points here,

1. lets not get hung up on literal translations of the Bible, there are many versions, interpretations going about, and at least accoridng to some we would all be stoned, why? simply cos we wear the same clothes, its in Leviticus the same bit that is anti gay. and dont get started on the lusting after neighbours wives this is a swingers sight.

2. This is the Cof E arguing against it, some churches/religions want it, so what stop the freedom of other churches marital beliefs. as is proposed,they would not have to do it themselves,so let those that want it have it ,(as well as state acceptance via non religious ceremonies. This isnt Cof E defending marriage its Cof E enforcing its norms on others

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

"gonna look a right dumbass here but i thought that same sex marriages aready existed.....i even went to a ceremony in a registrar office last year wearing a stupid hat

It was a same sex ceremony (i assume) as same sex marriages dont exist legally.have been to a couple myself and they are lovely, but it doesnt have all the same rights which people want and deserve. And as far as im concerned as the marriages wont be on Cof E property or with a Cof E ceremony its none of thier buseness

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I dont think Churches should be forced to Marry homosexuals, i dont think its right, but i do think that Gay people should have the right to be married, the same as straight people, in a registry office, and have a marriage certificate and be able to say that they are married, not civil partners... wtf is that about,... there are plenty of marriages that go on without the intervention of the church,,, no reason that that could not be the case with gay marriages!

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

"I dont think Churches should be forced to Marry homosexuals, i dont think its right, but i do think that Gay people should have the right to be married, the same as straight people, in a registry office, and have a marriage certificate and be able to say that they are married, not civil partners... wtf is that about,... there are plenty of marriages that go on without the intervention of the church,,, no reason that that could not be the case with gay marriages! "

pretty much what i feel, the point of this legislation is that it isnt forcing anyone, churches can say no if they want but those religions that want to can

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't understand why gay people would want to get married in a church.

exactly...me as a catholic aint gna wanna go getting maried in a sikh mosque am i ffs

but thats not the same thing...and maybe if you fell in love with a sikh man you would want to

as someone has said there are lots of gay people who are religious, why should they not be given the same right to be married in the house of their god?"
they not true to there religion if they gay

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I can see where the Church is coming from if you consider how the institution of marriage came about. Here's the scenario:

Judea 600BC, about tea-time, (or whenever for the pedants):

Two men approach the village elder laying claim to the same woman.

The village elder asks who claimed her first, both men reply with 'I did!'

I could read you all day

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By *ovedupstillCouple
over a year ago

mullinwire

as a wise person once said about the church and all sexual matters.

if you dont play the game, dont make the rules.

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By *edbagioMan
over a year ago

ripon

lets face it who in their right mind

wants to get wed;mugs game ends in tears;with someone potless;;

forgive me its still a sore festering

in me

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"lets face it who in their right mind

wants to get wed;mugs game ends in tears;with someone potless;;

forgive me its still a sore festering

in me

You had a gay marriage?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's next, marrying your pets??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What's next, marrying your pets??"

The CofE already bless pets but can't extend the same sort of tolerance to two people in love.

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By *edbagioMan
over a year ago

ripon

"lets face it who in their right mind

wants to get wed;mugs game ends in tears;with someone potless;;

forgive me its still a sore festering

in me

You had a gay marriage?

"
no been wed sore point

homeless no brass when shit hits the fan

wont matter if your gay or st still end up shafted

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Just to reiterate -

the proposed law would allow same sex couples to get married in civil premises, and not in churches, unless any of them wanted this.

There are gay marriages in other European countries, Spain, Belgium, Iceland, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Sweden and is pending in Denmak and there is no hell in these countries, nor major issue - so we're left with the UK.

Also in Argentina, Canada, South Africa and some parts of the USA.

Thankfully, at least 80% of under 50's are in favour of supporting full equality for you to marry the same or opposite sex.

As the law does not impose anything on the Church of England, ie. they're not to be forced to marry 2 guys or 2 females together, then it's none of their business.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just a thought but what would happen should the 'married man's tax allowance' be reintroduced? Would both partners get said allowance?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They do have a point! Now don't get me wrong as i do not have anything against gay people, but a christian country accepting gay marriage is not right! It goes against the bible in ALOT of ways

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By *ovedupstillCouple
over a year ago

mullinwire

"What's next, marrying your pets??"

really??

you are putting 2 people of the same sex, being so in love they want to commit to each other in the same way as those of opposite sex, in the same bracket as someone wanting to marry an animal, or indeed at worst, beastiality???

holy crap i have read some things in my time here but........

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

hahaha cathlics? where do you start?

happy to watch people in the developing world because of a no condom rule,

all i can say is if god existed why chose the catholic child raping priests to represent you?

bad p.r in the extreme

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They do have a point! Now don't get me wrong as i do not have anything against gay people, but a christian country accepting gay marriage is not right! It goes against the bible in ALOT of ways"

we are not a christian country,dont label me and my beliefs with that load of bollocks

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"They do have a point! Now don't get me wrong as i do not have anything against gay people, but a christian country accepting gay marriage is not right! It goes against the bible in ALOT of ways"

And swinging doesn't?.....

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

"They do have a point! Now don't get me wrong as i do not have anything against gay people, but a christian country accepting gay marriage is not right! It goes against the bible in ALOT of ways"

But we're not a Christian country, and certainly we're not a country where the Church of England is the only church. There are many religions and a huge volume of people are atheist, agnostic, disinterested in religion or have a different non Christian religion. Where we do have an imbalance, is that the Church of England has powers to shape our laws, via their Bishops in the House of Lords, which no other church or religion has - this is archaic and these people do not represent everyone. I believe they should be ousted from government bodies.

And the law is not to make the marriages happen in their churches, it would simply be to allow same sex people to marry at registry offices etc, so it's none of their business.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I personally don't see why same sex couples cannot call their bond a marriage, just as I can't understand why a non-religious hetro-sexual couple cannot call their union a civil partnership. I don't believe in marriage, but I don't believe in God, JC or some guy in a frock telling me that I am betrothed to another human being until death do us part (or one of us files for divorce!). I believe that a person should be allowed to express their love in a way that suits them, and if that is a marriage then so be it. Most of the bible, and other religious books, are open to interpretation by the individual, and society has changed greatly since these books were written.

The downfall of society has nothing to do with who people love, it's a lack of respect and tolerance for each other."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This exactly. Anyone who thinks heterosexual marriage is threatened by gay and lesbian couples getting the legal protection that married couples enjoy must have very little faith in relationships in general

Serious how the fuck is heterosexual marriage 'threatened' or 'undermined' by two people of the same gender declaring a legal connection to each other.

If the legislation was about forcing the church to perform gay marriage (as in the church hosting the ceremony, not just church used as a location) then I would understand the objection - but to object to gay couples getting the SAME legal standing in the eyes of the law is just...faugh. no words for my disgust.

But then I believe all the Lords Spiritual should be kicked out of the house of lord. They have NO place in the government of the country as far as I'm concerned (unless the house of lords is also opened up to ecclesiastical members of other faiths.)

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By *ovedupstillCouple
over a year ago

mullinwire

hahaha cathlics? where do you start?

happy to watch people in the developing world because of a no condom rule,

all i can say is if god existed why chose the catholic child raping priests to represent you?

bad p.r in the extreme"

em is a catholic, and has a gay son.

guess which she chose between the love of her child and religion...

but, i think your argument is flawed.

although there have been instances of priests doing the nasty, and disgustingly so, there are far more children being abused by family than religious leaders by a very large margin, and plenty of people cover that up to the detriment of the child, so the argument is bull.

since the bible was written, the world has changed.

yes, i have to say, homosexuality is NOT normal (because if it were, the human race would have died out thousands of years ago) but against god? against a ficticious being?

no, the churches opinion is crap.

i have no time for it.

Em hasnt had since her father died as why would such a being take someone that was so good to people, yet keep murderers, rapists and muggers safe and happy?

religion was invented by the rich to keep the poor down, IF you live by a very religious code, you are just doing what they want you to do.

open your mind and embrace the world for what it is, a beautiful, fucked upp place, that no 1 being can ever be accredited to being in charge of, or indeed the creator thereof

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As Stonewall said 'anyone who is against gay marriage should just be careful not too marry someone of the same sex.'

If it causes a schism between the state and the church,then good. its about time. Let's not forget that the church of england was formed in order for someone to divorce someone so they could marry someone else.

Using a book which laid out what was considered normal two thousand years ago doesn't really hack it in the 21st century. And that's all it it,a book.and not a very good one at that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just to reiterate -

the proposed law would allow same sex couples to get married in civil premises, and not in churches, unless any of them wanted this.

Also in Argentina, Canada, South Africa and some parts of the USA.

Thankfully, at least 80% of under 50's are in favour of supporting full equality for you to marry the same or opposite sex.

As the law does not impose anything on the Church of England, ie. they're not to be forced to marry 2 guys or 2 females together, then it's none of their business. "

People are choosing to hear what they want to...I've said about half a dozen times that there is no imposition on the church, and that the marriages are civil/secular and not religious, but people just seem to keep thinking something is being imposed on the church because of the word 'Marriage'. A marriage is a legal relationship, not a religious one...which is why non god-squaders can get married x

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"They do have a point! Now don't get me wrong as i do not have anything against gay people, but a christian country accepting gay marriage is not right! It goes against the bible in ALOT of ways"

So does divorce, so does sleeping with people before marriage, so does sleeping with people not your spouse, so does eating shellfish on Sundays, so does wearing clothes made with two sorts of thread, so does a lot of things.

That's what I meant when I posted that religious people keep moving the goal posts. I am sure someone will say 'well the Church has to keep up with modern life, and divorce is now acceptable'. Well, so are gay people, and this country has the chance to show just how tolerant it is of all minorities. You can't pick and choose which part of your doctrine you follow - it's either all or none.

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By *ovedupstillCouple
over a year ago

mullinwire

lets not forget, islam outdates chrsitinaity and catholosism by thousands of years, so should Sharia law outstrip all religious leanings we rely on now?

if so, then im gettin me a big stone and visiting every one of your houses lol

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"lets not forget, islam outdates chrsitinaity and catholosism by thousands of years, so should Sharia law outstrip all religious leanings we rely on now?

if so, then im gettin me a big stone and visiting every one of your houses lol"

Islam started in the 9th Century AD, so is younger that Christianity. Judaism on the other hand is much, much older. And they accept homosexuality. Unfortunately Islam doesn't.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Which ring goes on who's finger? Brown? Gold? Or will it be ring and fist?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

For gay marriage.

The bits in the bible aren't even exactly clear cut about homosexuality anyway. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is mixed up in a lot of other issues like the sanctity of guest rights (considered near sacrosanct even today in the middle east) and greed etc (yes I know the bit in Leviticus) but a lot of the bible was written as the old Roman empire fell apart (a good 300years after Christ) and it railed against what it saw as the causes (the greed and debauchery of the rich and powerful). Added to this is a huge amount of tampering every time someone released a new translation or version of the bible. Most importantly though marriage is hardly a Christian institution, it exists in almost all cultures and has done in one form or another across all of human history

As lots of people have said this wouldn't force any religion to marry people, that is being left up to the individual religions. Although as the "state church" there is an argument that the church of England should abide by the civil laws of the UK.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The problem here is one of reconciling outdated dogma with modern life. Leviticus leaves no ambiguity about homosexuality. However, Leviticus also sanctions the murder of adulterers, those who work on the Sabbath and individuals who wear clothing that combines different types of plant fibre. It also mandates the owning and trading in slaves (especially women). All of this has been discarded except among the most orthodox of believers.

Since Judaism derives it's beliefs from the Old Testament then it cannot, in the strictly orthodox sense, sanction homosexuality. Whilst the New Testament is superior to the Old Testament (in that when edicts conflict the New wins over the Old) for Christianity, neither Jesus nor his apostles revealed a new position of homosexuality. So again, literal Christians cannot accept homosexuality. Islam- believed by Muslims to be the very final word on God's law- also doesn't amend the position.

I'm sure there are very interesting & complex psychosexual reasons for homosexuality to remain antithetical to the Abrahamic faiths...

The philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein observed something along the lines of 'there are no philosophical, religious or ethical problems, only linguistic problems'. Which I take to mean that the problem in this debate is one of language. Almost everybody but for the most extreme acolyte would agree with the propositions that 'homosexuals are equal to heterosexuals', 'homosexual relationships are just as valuable as heterosexual relationships' and that 'homosexual relationships of demonstrable seriousness & integrity (conferred via the public act of announcing your commitment) should benefit from the same legal protections as heterosexual relationships'. If you agree with those then the debate is then about the meaning of words i.e. what is the difference between a 'civil partnership' and a 'marriage'.

We conceive of 'marriage' as a union between man & woman generally because that is what the general historical trend has been. To frame 'marriage' as an institution that exists only within the confines of the Abrahamic faiths is narrow-minded and insults anyone who is married according to any other rite.

Furthermore, the axiom that gay marriage would devalue the institution of marriage generally and undermine society is insulting to all marriages and fails to recognise that such an extension of the 'marriage-franchise' would make society more stable as it provides a means for the commitment of two individuals to be publicly affirmed.

The actor George Takei noted on his facebook 'page' that separation of peoples using terms such as 'marriage' and 'civil partnership' can be regarded as synonymous with the blight of segregation in 1960s America. The division of these terms into two different labels was politically expedient as it meant that the government didn't have to confront anachronistic behemoths like the CoE or the RC lobby (as well as the Muslims & the Jews).

Well I for one welcome the rolling back of these artificial, unnecessary and divisive barriers and look forward to the time when generations of tomorrow look back in astonishment as how foolish and biased we were and are hopefully grateful that difficult, unpopular decisions were made so that we could live in a more just and equal society.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Judaism on the other hand is much, much older."

yet Leviticus is in the Torah! Orthodox jews have pretty much the same _iew as the CofE

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

p.s. As a rebuttal to the idea that homosexuality is 'not normal' one need only look at much of post-modern existence. It is legitimate to say that homosexuality has no reproductive value but if the state & the act increases happiness then it certainly has a place among a species who are largely pleasure-seeking organisms.

Life is miserable enough without passing through it without satisfaction.

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"p.s. As a rebuttal to the idea that homosexuality is 'not normal' one need only look at much of post-modern existence. It is legitimate to say that homosexuality has no reproductive value but if the state & the act increases happiness then it certainly has a place among a species who are largely pleasure-seeking organisms.

Life is miserable enough without passing through it without satisfaction."

Especially as we don't need procreation as much as we used to. I think with 7 billion on the planet we can let up the 'marriage is only for having kids' proscription.

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By *ovedupstillCouple
over a year ago

mullinwire

"lets not forget, islam outdates chrsitinaity and catholosism by thousands of years, so should Sharia law outstrip all religious leanings we rely on now?

if so, then im gettin me a big stone and visiting every one of your houses lol

Islam started in the 9th Century AD, so is younger that Christianity. Judaism on the other hand is much, much older. And they accept homosexuality. Unfortunately Islam doesn't."

sorry, knew it was one or the other.

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By *ushroom7Man
over a year ago

Bradford

"Which ring goes on who's finger? Brown? Gold? Or will it be ring and fist?

Apparently, Lohengrin's Wedding March is gonna be replaced by Abba's "Ring,Ring."

Could be a whole new thread in the making.

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

"What's next, marrying your pets??"

stupid idea true but hey,the pope (not Cof E ok) only gets his title and power through being bishop of rome which makes him the heir to the old roman high priest the Pontifex maximus (pontif)its the same link that gave godlike authority to the ceasars and one of them made a horse senator

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

"The problem here is one of reconciling outdated dogma with modern life. Leviticus leaves no ambiguity about homosexuality. However, Leviticus also sanctions the murder of adulterers, those who work on the Sabbath and individuals who wear clothing that combines different types of plant fibre. It also mandates the owning and trading in slaves (especially women). All of this has been discarded except among the most orthodox of believers.

I'm sure there are very interesting & complex psychosexual reasons for homosexuality to remain antithetical to the Abrahamic faiths...

gotta love takei he does some great posts.

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By *umourCouple
over a year ago

Rushden

Oh I am loving this!

When someone states they don't want to meet this type or that type, it's a preference! When a centuries old religeous belief is held it's discrimination?

Come on guys, there is a perfectly good system for Civil Partnerships and they can be called marriage. I suspect that most of this is real world "Trolling"!

I am not for or against "Gay Marriage" and we are not at all religeous, but double standards make me smile...

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

"Oh I am loving this!

When someone states they don't want to meet this type or that type, it's a preference! When a centuries old religeous belief is held it's discrimination?

Come on guys, there is a perfectly good system for Civil Partnerships and they can be called marriage. I suspect that most of this is real world "Trolling"!

I am not for or against "Gay Marriage" and we are not at all religeous, but double standards make me smile...

where is the double standard in wanting equal rights under the law?something which does not exist at present, and if some want that right outside of the church, or if some chuches want to perform the ritual good luck to them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just to reiterate -

the proposed law would allow same sex couples to get married in civil premises, and not in churches, unless any of them wanted this.

Also in Argentina, Canada, South Africa and some parts of the USA.

Thankfully, at least 80% of under 50's are in favour of supporting full equality for you to marry the same or opposite sex.

As the law does not impose anything on the Church of England, ie. they're not to be forced to marry 2 guys or 2 females together, then it's none of their business.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A marriage is a union of 2 people in love

I don't see that the gender of those 2 people matter"

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"I am not for or against "Gay Marriage" and we are not at all religeous, but double standards make me smile...

So you're accusing us of having double standards for pointing out the Church.....has double standards?

Does not compute.

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"Bible sez man shall not lie with man (or something along those lines), church follows teachings of bible, church against gay marriage.....simple as far as I'm concerned

Everyone is entitled to their own belief, if as a Christian they believe gay sex to be wrong, then I defend their right to that belief even as I'm going down on a sexy girl

Doees the church also ban eating black pudding (which is outlawed in the same book of the bible a the passage about gay sex...)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Doees the church also ban eating black pudding (which is outlawed in the same book of the bible a the passage about gay sex...)"

Nope... One of my ex girlfriends was a church warden...

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"in my opinion...no...just like if i decide to commit suicide i would be refused a religious funeral...if i make that decision then i must face the consequences just like in everything else in life

as with the children comment...the child can then when they are older if they wish can choose to be baptised etc and follow the faith

This is why religion is so infuriating. You keep moving the goal posts!

Why not? Laws apply equally to all. Your argument is too general, too undifferentiated. What if a church decides it doesn't agree with taxes? Or more significantly, what if a church decides to only employ men? Should they be exempt from equalities laws? You may say yes, I say no. And guess what? those of us who don;t go to church outnumber you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Why not? Laws apply equally to all. Your argument is too general, too undifferentiated. What if a church decides it doesn't agree with taxes? Or more significantly, what if a church decides to only employ men? Should they be exempt from equalities laws? You may say yes, I say no. And guess what? those of us who don;t go to church outnumber you."

Taxes is a question of law, not choice.

Equallity is also a question of law...

And the freedom of choice, speech and religious belief is upheld right up to the European Court of Human Rights...

Neither Christian Church nor Muslim and Hindu temple can be legally instructed to act against its faith.

The argument is moot...

And the numbers of people who hold religious beliefs FAR outnumber those who do not...

;-)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

from what i can see the church follows and teaches from the good book. since religion came about they have all taught and followed the bible of some sort.you all seem to think that the church are suddenly going to say ok the book we live by is wrong?? not on your nelly. yr taught the world was created in 7 days in one class. in another youre taught the big bang and evolution theory. why when i put in a physics exam the world was created by god is that answer wrong?? same sort of reasoning with this marriage business. they follow their rules and will not change thousands of years of teachings. i personally believe religion serves people who need it and that's cool. it is what it is and there's more important things to sort before this can of worms. marriage is sacred and to allow same sex marriages destroys the foundations on which religion is built.

im not homophobic either before i get slated i have a gay brother.

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

"from what i can see the church follows and teaches from the good book. since religion came about they have all taught and followed the bible of some sort.you all seem to think that the church are suddenly going to say ok the book we live by is wrong?? not on your nelly. yr taught the world was created in 7 days in one class. in another youre taught the big bang and evolution theory. why when i put in a physics exam the world was created by god is that answer wrong?? same sort of reasoning with this marriage business. they follow their rules and will not change thousands of years of teachings. i personally believe religion serves people who need it and that's cool. it is what it is and there's more important things to sort before this can of worms. marriage is sacred and to allow same sex marriages destroys the foundations on which religion is built.

im not homophobic either before i get slated i have a gay brother."

Marriage is sacred to those who believe it to be so and they will still be allowed to marry in thier churches with no change,HOWEVER (and i deliberately shouted it as its a huge however) marriages outside of the church are by law non religious, I know I wrote my own wedding vows and was not allowed any religious references.As such if gay people wish to get married, either a) a non religious ceremony so church _iews are irelivant and have no right to challenge, or b) have to get married within a church/religion that accepts and wants it and there are manyit. As i say for a) church should have no right to interfere and for b) there are so many versions or faith religion and imterpretations of the bible. So lets allow freedom of marriage for those branches that want it and cut the dognatic persecution of those branches of faith that do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"in my opinion...no...just like if i decide to commit suicide i would be refused a religious funeral...if i make that decision then i must face the consequences just like in everything else in life

as with the children comment...the child can then when they are older if they wish can choose to be baptised etc and follow the faith

This is why religion is so infuriating. You keep moving the goal posts!

In a round about way, the churches do only employ men as women are not allowed to be vicars!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In a round about way, the churches do only employ men as women are not allowed to be vicars!"

yes they are

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In a round about way, the churches do only employ men as women are not allowed to be vicars!

yes they are"

Sorry...meant Priests!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In a round about way, the churches do only employ men as women are not allowed to be vicars!

yes they are

Sorry...meant Priests!"

yes they are..In the CofE at least a vicar is a parish priest representing the Diocese Bishop. Hence the likeness to the word vicarious.

Mt Great Uncle was a priest but not a vicar as he didn't have a parish. He worked at lourdes so was a simple priest. Vicar and Priest are largely the same thing. Here endeth the lesson

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In a round about way, the churches do only employ men as women are not allowed to be vicars!

yes they are

Sorry...meant Priests!

yes they are..In the CofE at least a vicar is a parish priest representing the Diocese Bishop. Hence the likeness to the word vicarious.

Mt Great Uncle was a priest but not a vicar as he didn't have a parish. He worked at lourdes so was a simple priest. Vicar and Priest are largely the same thing. Here endeth the lesson

I have looked on Google again (I don't follow any religion at all so have to look it up) and it's the Catholic Church that don't allow it. I always forget there is a so much difference between CofE and Catholic as they all read the same book so should follow the same rules in theory! I'm not even sure what the difference is between a priest and a vicar tbh, hence the original blunder x

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

In a round about way, the churches do only employ men as women are not allowed to be vicars!

yes they are

Sorry...meant Priests!

yes they are..In the CofE at least a vicar is a parish priest representing the Diocese Bishop. Hence the likeness to the word vicarious.

Mt Great Uncle was a priest but not a vicar as he didn't have a parish. He worked at lourdes so was a simple priest. Vicar and Priest are largely the same thing. Here endeth the lesson

noone has foolowed the same rules since before the 1st council of Niceae where the followers of Arianis were disputed yet still maintained support in the far east and northern europe (a split which paralels the later protestant split), so many schisms have evolved since, all sides agreed then tho that pics of god were wrong so the sistine chapel is wrong by any account, later they then split on wether jesus is god, a manifestation of god, the spirit of god, his son or just his essence something which still rages anled to the split between the more legitimate orthodox church or that of the roman catholic see which claimed legitimacy via what is now known as the forgery of christopherous, Islam too is essentially a subsect of christianity, so any claim to christian homogenaety is falacious and enforcement of any subsect of christianitys dogma or norms over others is surely wrong

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

Taxes is a question of law, not choice.

Equallity is also a question of law...

And the freedom of choice, speech and religious belief is upheld right up to the European Court of Human Rights...

Neither Christian Church nor Muslim and Hindu temple can be legally instructed to act against its faith.

The argument is moot...

And the numbers of people who hold religious beliefs FAR outnumber those who do not...

;-)"
Oddly, no-one is threatening to order a church to do anything it doesn't want to. We're telling them to shut the fuck up.

Your attempt to equate having religious beliefs with my statement that the number of people who go to church is outnumbered by the rest of us is pathetic - in the old fashioned sense of being so weak as to deserve pity. The Church of England when it suits it says that church attendance is required for membership of the church (e.g. to take part in the election of church wardens at the Easter VEstry or wwhatever it is called in these happy clappy days)but at other times claims anyone who says 'Oh God' when they hit their thumb with a hammer as a believer...

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

Taxes is a question of law, not choice.

Equallity is also a question of law...

And the freedom of choice, speech and religious belief is upheld right up to the European Court of Human Rights...

Neither Christian Church nor Muslim and Hindu temple can be legally instructed to act against its faith.

The argument is moot...

And the numbers of people who hold religious beliefs FAR outnumber those who do not...

;-)Oddly, no-one is threatening to order a church to do anything it doesn't want to. We're telling them to shut the fuck up.

interesting point that about what constitutes a believer, in recent surveys I over 50% said that they did not believe in any religion, (one survey had it at 66%) yet when asked which religion they belong too 2/3 said they were christian, which implys that for many its not necessarily about what they believ. either way there are so many sub sects of christianity mnay which completely disagree with each other, that no one sect of christianity can ever truely claim to speak for the majority of the UK

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wow - what a lot of learned theologians we have!

Obviously many are vary committed to their faith.

So isn't it luck for us that there's noting in the Bible abut "Thou shalt not commit adultery" or "Thou shalt not covert thy neighbour's wife"....

Well, I presume there isn't..., or we'd be in a real mess!

Sorry - what's marriage about again? No matter who it's between...

Good job that none of us here is without sin.....

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By *G LanaTV/TS
over a year ago

Gosport

From what I can see the bible makes so many contradictory claims especially in the old testament that any dogma based on it is purely in the chosen interpretation.

Lets face it Genesis tells us that all mankind derives from Adam and Eve yet incest is banned (something else Leviticus has some very right wing _iews on) so humanity should never have proceeded beyond their children unless they were breeding with non humans but then that's also banned.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Wow - what a lot of learned theologians we have!

Obviously many are vary committed to their faith.

So isn't it luck for us that there's noting in the Bible abut "Thou shalt not commit adultery" or "Thou shalt not covert thy neighbour's wife"....

Well, I presume there isn't..., or we'd be in a real mess!

Sorry - what's marriage about again? No matter who it's between...

Good job that none of us here is without sin.....

Similar conclusion..

Wonder when some are in the confessional box, most likely kneeling etc how they feel about telling huge porkies..

Then again forgive me father i have been spit roasted may cause more than a few hail mary's etc..

Absolutely respect anyones right to believe in whatever, yes there is perhaps a contradiction between 'what is written' and peoples activities..

If they are cool with it fine..

But then this sort of thread starts and some deem it ok to pontificate about their beliefs and how us none believers should not have a _iew or that _iew matters not..

funny old world..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Wow - what a lot of learned theologians we have!

Obviously many are vary committed to their faith.

So isn't it luck for us that there's noting in the Bible abut "Thou shalt not commit adultery" or "Thou shalt not covert thy neighbour's wife"....

Well, I presume there isn't..., or we'd be in a real mess!

Sorry - what's marriage about again? No matter who it's between...

Good job that none of us here is without sin.....

A very good point. One poster has been blathering on about being a Catholic. Clearly not a very good one then, if he or she is a swinger.

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

"Wow - what a lot of learned theologians we have!

Obviously many are vary committed to their faith.

So isn't it luck for us that there's noting in the Bible abut "Thou shalt not commit adultery" or "Thou shalt not covert thy neighbour's wife"....

Well, I presume there isn't..., or we'd be in a real mess!

Sorry - what's marriage about again? No matter who it's between...

Good job that none of us here is without sin.....

A very good point. One poster has been blathering on about being a Catholic. Clearly not a very good one then, if he or she is a swinger."

Exactly, there isnt a man or woman on this site who wouldnt have been stoned in ancient times,at least according to one sect or another. (and i dont meant on pot)

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

time to get my wife a beard i think

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't see what all the fuss is about. The Church's archaic rules about marriage being only for the sacred union between man and woman and yet the institution of marriage itself should be studied under a microscope and exposed for the absolute sham that it is.

"with thy body I thee wed"

"for better or for worse"

"forsaking all others"

etc etc etc, blah blah blah..

If any of those things really meant anything to the people who utter them, and not just when they are standing in front of 200 people whilst wearing a nice suit or a pretty frock, we wouldn't have a single divorce anywhere in the Christian world.

Marriage is bollocks.

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By *ove2-shareCouple
over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

"I don't see what all the fuss is about. The Church's archaic rules about marriage being only for the sacred union between man and woman and yet the institution of marriage itself should be studied under a microscope and exposed for the absolute sham that it is.

"with thy body I thee wed"

"for better or for worse"

"forsaking all others"

etc etc etc, blah blah blah..

Marriage is bollocks."

I agree tho I am married and proud, of my relationship, its not conventional, and we wrote our own non religious vows,but with us its about a partnership of love for the rest of our lives.by the way one of the forgotten original reasons for marriage is also dodgey, that of a buseness union between two families for political or financial gain or power, whereby the woman was basically used as a bargaining chip, its why we have a best man in the ceremony, historically he was the replacement in case any rival family should intervene and kidnap the groom.

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