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"I do think more should be done, although rather than your examples I’d start with senior management of any company being something other than 95% pale male" Why? | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants?" Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol"  brilliantly put! | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol" Well here's an example. My daughter has been encouraged at school through STEM to consider a career in science and engineering. My son however has never been encouraged to consider the beauty industry, nor does a STEM equivalent seem to exist to help. | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants?" Perhaps in some cases. I think we need to be careful what we wish for, and we need to be careful we aren't looking for a problem that doesn't exist. Let's use your Indian restaurant example... I go to my local Italian, run by Italians, they are great, i go there because they have Italian staff and I like the Italian experience.. (for that you can substitute Spanish, Chinese, Thai, Indian, Turkish, Greek etc) Make them "diverse/inclusive" and it wouldn't be the same experience and I wouldn't go there. In some cases it's a good thing and in others either not necessary or undesirable. | |||
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"Greater diversity in police and uniformed services would be a good thing." How do you think that could be done? Also do you know for example how out of balance the percentage of non white police officers vs non white British citizens is? | |||
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"Greater diversity in police and uniformed services would be a good thing." In what way? Recruiting? Training? | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol Well here's an example. My daughter has been encouraged at school through STEM to consider a career in science and engineering. My son however has never been encouraged to consider the beauty industry, nor does a STEM equivalent seem to exist to help." Men and women will naturally gravitate towards certain fields if left to their own devices. Why? Because we're fundamentally different on average. You can only change that through massive social engineering which contradicts the natural impulse. | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Perhaps in some cases. I think we need to be careful what we wish for, and we need to be careful we aren't looking for a problem that doesn't exist. Let's use your Indian restaurant example... I go to my local Italian, run by Italians, they are great, i go there because they have Italian staff and I like the Italian experience.. (for that you can substitute Spanish, Chinese, Thai, Indian, Turkish, Greek etc) Make them "diverse/inclusive" and it wouldn't be the same experience and I wouldn't go there. In some cases it's a good thing and in others either not necessary or undesirable. " So essentially you enjoy the exclusivity of the catering industry, and would see greater inclusivity as a negative? | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol Well here's an example. My daughter has been encouraged at school through STEM to consider a career in science and engineering. My son however has never been encouraged to consider the beauty industry, nor does a STEM equivalent seem to exist to help. Men and women will naturally gravitate towards certain fields if left to their own devices. Why? Because we're fundamentally different on average. You can only change that through massive social engineering which contradicts the natural impulse." So you think it's wrong to encourage girls into traditional Male careers, i see. | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol Well here's an example. My daughter has been encouraged at school through STEM to consider a career in science and engineering. My son however has never been encouraged to consider the beauty industry, nor does a STEM equivalent seem to exist to help." That is because ‘equality’ only really exists when certain narratives are driven. It does seem at times things should only be equal when it suits to be equal. | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol Well here's an example. My daughter has been encouraged at school through STEM to consider a career in science and engineering. My son however has never been encouraged to consider the beauty industry, nor does a STEM equivalent seem to exist to help. Men and women will naturally gravitate towards certain fields if left to their own devices. Why? Because we're fundamentally different on average. You can only change that through massive social engineering which contradicts the natural impulse. So you think it's wrong to encourage girls into traditional Male careers, i see. " I didn't say that. | |||
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"Greater diversity in police and uniformed services would be a good thing. In what way? Recruiting? Training? " With a little research you can see thst Policing is an area that has invested a great amount into diversifying it’s workforce... and still hasn’t achieved a workforce that truely reflects the make up of society..... so do they carry on doing ‘more’ or not? | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol Well here's an example. My daughter has been encouraged at school through STEM to consider a career in science and engineering. My son however has never been encouraged to consider the beauty industry, nor does a STEM equivalent seem to exist to help. That is because ‘equality’ only really exists when certain narratives are driven. It does seem at times things should only be equal when it suits to be equal. " So in this example, women's career choices should be broadened, whilst traditional Male careers should have increased competition with no new alternatives encouraged. I see. | |||
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"Not really. If people want the job, they'll apply. As an employer I need to see that the applicant wants the job. I genuinely don't care what "label" they have." What if they don't know they want the job because they've not been encouraged to consider that pathway....? Shouldn't things begin at an earlier stage than interview....? Also, as an employer do you feel it's your duty to create an equal society or is it just about paying the bills...? | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol Well here's an example. My daughter has been encouraged at school through STEM to consider a career in science and engineering. My son however has never been encouraged to consider the beauty industry, nor does a STEM equivalent seem to exist to help. Men and women will naturally gravitate towards certain fields if left to their own devices. Why? Because we're fundamentally different on average. You can only change that through massive social engineering which contradicts the natural impulse." Natural impulse?  I don’t think wanting to work in a specific field is an innate characteristic that anyone has regardless of gender... | |||
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"Greater diversity in police and uniformed services would be a good thing. In what way? Recruiting? Training? " So you'd like to see a cap on numbers, or percentages of white police officers. Do you think that would be ok to enforce in areas of less diversity? Would you force black applicants to the police force to take up post in the highlands or Cornwall just to "balance the books"? | |||
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"Greater diversity in police and uniformed services would be a good thing. In what way? Recruiting? Training? With a little research you can see thst Policing is an area that has invested a great amount into diversifying it’s workforce... and still hasn’t achieved a workforce that truely reflects the make up of society..... so do they carry on doing ‘more’ or not?" Its probably had one of the most radical overhaul of recruitment processes of any career within the UK, a huge input on diversity in continued professional development and still attracts one of the greatest levels of scrutiny in any career. Yet from the average layman perspective they aren't doing anything! | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol Well here's an example. My daughter has been encouraged at school through STEM to consider a career in science and engineering. My son however has never been encouraged to consider the beauty industry, nor does a STEM equivalent seem to exist to help. Men and women will naturally gravitate towards certain fields if left to their own devices. Why? Because we're fundamentally different on average. You can only change that through massive social engineering which contradicts the natural impulse. Natural impulse? I don’t think wanting to work in a specific field is an innate characteristic that anyone has regardless of gender... "In scandinavian countries, where women have more equality of opportunity than anywhere else, you have a huge discrepancy in the numbers of women who gravitate to fields that prioritise social contact, such as nursing, medicine, social services etc as opposed to the ones who opt for "traditional male roles" such as engineering / architecture, physics, IT, etc. There are no barriers for them accessing those fields, yet they choose not to do so. Shows that equality of opportunity and outcome can be vastly different. | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Perhaps in some cases. I think we need to be careful what we wish for, and we need to be careful we aren't looking for a problem that doesn't exist. Let's use your Indian restaurant example... I go to my local Italian, run by Italians, they are great, i go there because they have Italian staff and I like the Italian experience.. (for that you can substitute Spanish, Chinese, Thai, Indian, Turkish, Greek etc) Make them "diverse/inclusive" and it wouldn't be the same experience and I wouldn't go there. In some cases it's a good thing and in others either not necessary or undesirable. So essentially you enjoy the exclusivity of the catering industry, and would see greater inclusivity as a negative?" That's not what I said | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol Well here's an example. My daughter has been encouraged at school through STEM to consider a career in science and engineering. My son however has never been encouraged to consider the beauty industry, nor does a STEM equivalent seem to exist to help. Men and women will naturally gravitate towards certain fields if left to their own devices. Why? Because we're fundamentally different on average. You can only change that through massive social engineering which contradicts the natural impulse. Natural impulse? I don’t think wanting to work in a specific field is an innate characteristic that anyone has regardless of gender...
In scandinavian countries, where women have more equality of opportunity than anywhere else, you have a huge discrepancy in the numbers of women who gravitate to fields that prioritise social contact, such as nursing, medicine, social services etc as opposed to the ones who opt for "traditional male roles" such as engineering / architecture, physics, IT, etc. There are no barriers for them accessing those fields, yet they choose not to do so. Shows that equality of opportunity and outcome can be vastly different."Scandinavia? Equality? My experience is quite different..... .....very traditional in their roles, maybe they're happy that way but definitely men have to be MEN in Scandinavia for sure....  | |||
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"Greater diversity in police and uniformed services would be a good thing. In what way? Recruiting? Training? With a little research you can see thst Policing is an area that has invested a great amount into diversifying it’s workforce... and still hasn’t achieved a workforce that truely reflects the make up of society..... so do they carry on doing ‘more’ or not? Its probably had one of the most radical overhaul of recruitment processes of any career within the UK, a huge input on diversity in continued professional development and still attracts one of the greatest levels of scrutiny in any career. Yet from the average layman perspective they aren't doing anything!" Two of my neighbours are officers - one in the Met and one in City Both say that the biggest barrier to recruitment of (in particular) more black officers is the stigma still attached in some communities to being a police officer I don't know what the answer is - but I'm sure that we have plenty of experts on here  | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol Well here's an example. My daughter has been encouraged at school through STEM to consider a career in science and engineering. My son however has never been encouraged to consider the beauty industry, nor does a STEM equivalent seem to exist to help. Men and women will naturally gravitate towards certain fields if left to their own devices. Why? Because we're fundamentally different on average. You can only change that through massive social engineering which contradicts the natural impulse. Natural impulse? I don’t think wanting to work in a specific field is an innate characteristic that anyone has regardless of gender... "The whole topic is a whirlpool where we all spin in a desire to ensure others/we are being equal.... On the specific gender point, it is not innate for gender to predispose towards a role *but* many studies now point to the early years impacts of broad hormonal influences on physical (brain) development which is reinforced through teaching methods. Young boys and their massive boosts of testosterone vs the fine motor skills schools favour. Likewise adult skills in social and emotional intelligence not always translating into writing mind bending computer code. Equality means picking best person for job irrespective of colour etc. Certain ethnic and social groups may focus on a skill as part of their identity. The fact that society has 'damaged' them that advantageous way is a harder nut to crack. | |||
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"When we have whatever the decided appropriate numbers of diverse individuals are in the gammet of professions and we have appointed people to roles that they are not necessarily suited, except due to their gender, colour, ethnicity or disability, we will we have life better or just arranged to suit those who feel symbolism is better than the ability to perform a job?" And when we get there then what? Do we then start not employing/promoting people so we dont create inequality once we’ve addressed inequality? This comment is made quite tongue in cheek but I stand by its sentiment. It also brings me back to my original post of What actually is ‘more’ and what is the end game.... I’m not convinced anybody really knows. | |||
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"When we have whatever the decided appropriate numbers of diverse individuals are in the gammet of professions and we have appointed people to roles that they are not necessarily suited, except due to their gender, colour, ethnicity or disability, we will we have life better or just arranged to suit those who feel symbolism is better than the ability to perform a job? And when we get there then what? Do we then start not employing/promoting people so we dont create inequality once we’ve addressed inequality? This comment is made quite tongue in cheek but I stand by its sentiment. It also brings me back to my original post of What actually is ‘more’ and what is the end game.... I’m not convinced anybody really knows. " Well no. We see a long entrenched problem. How it's fixed and what that will look like is unclear. Because we all live within the problematic system. Of course we don't know "the answer". We strive to find it. | |||
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"When we have whatever the decided appropriate numbers of diverse individuals are in the gammet of professions and we have appointed people to roles that they are not necessarily suited, except due to their gender, colour, ethnicity or disability, we will we have life better or just arranged to suit those who feel symbolism is better than the ability to perform a job? And when we get there then what? Do we then start not employing/promoting people so we dont create inequality once we’ve addressed inequality? This comment is made quite tongue in cheek but I stand by its sentiment. It also brings me back to my original post of What actually is ‘more’ and what is the end game.... I’m not convinced anybody really knows. Well no. We see a long entrenched problem. How it's fixed and what that will look like is unclear. Because we all live within the problematic system. Of course we don't know "the answer". We strive to find it." But isn’t thst a large part of the concern a lot of people have. There is a strive to solve a ‘problem’ but no one seems to know what the solution is? This is my real concern with all this... no one can tell me what is actually being strived for, or what success looks like? I wholeheartedly agree that opportunities for employment/promotion/progression should be accessible to all. But I also will state that not all employment/promotion/progression is suitable for all in all areas. Yet there seems to be, in some sectors, this almost cult like drive to do ‘more’ and reach certain aspirational numbers without any real thought of the consequence of that. It’s similar, and I only mention it as it’s been brought up, to the BLM movement. Saying black lives matter(they undoubtedly do) is very different to supporting the political BLM movement... what do they actually want and what does if look like? Either way I’m pretty sure this won’t get solved on Fab | |||
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"For what it’s worth I think there needs to be equity. In other words fair treatment, access, opportunity, and advancement for all people, while at the same time striving to identify and eliminate barriers that have prevented the full participation of some minority groups. After that it’s down to personal choice. The factors affecting personal choice will change as the systemic barriers are removed that adversely affect our social systems. Identifying the barriers to participation, prioritise the ones that most significantly inhibit those systems being equitable and the work to eliminate them. Setting arbitrary targets for proportions over simplifies complex systemic issues. Removing or reducing the forces inhibiting the systems from developing equity will enable the system to achieve a new equilibrium that is fairer. Waking up to our own un-conscious biases is a first step." I mean that is literally pulled from the HR handbook of wokeness lol | |||
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"I do think more should be done, although rather than your examples I’d start with senior management of any company being something other than 95% pale male" This...gotta start with changes from the top! | |||
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"For what it’s worth I think there needs to be equity. In other words fair treatment, access, opportunity, and advancement for all people, while at the same time striving to identify and eliminate barriers that have prevented the full participation of some minority groups. After that it’s down to personal choice. The factors affecting personal choice will change as the systemic barriers are removed that adversely affect our social systems. Identifying the barriers to participation, prioritise the ones that most significantly inhibit those systems being equitable and the work to eliminate them. Setting arbitrary targets for proportions over simplifies complex systemic issues. Removing or reducing the forces inhibiting the systems from developing equity will enable the system to achieve a new equilibrium that is fairer. Waking up to our own un-conscious biases is a first step. I mean that is literally pulled from the HR handbook of wokeness lol" such a book exists? | |||
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"When we have whatever the decided appropriate numbers of diverse individuals are in the gammet of professions and we have appointed people to roles that they are not necessarily suited, except due to their gender, colour, ethnicity or disability, we will we have life better or just arranged to suit those who feel symbolism is better than the ability to perform a job? And when we get there then what? Do we then start not employing/promoting people so we dont create inequality once we’ve addressed inequality? This comment is made quite tongue in cheek but I stand by its sentiment. It also brings me back to my original post of What actually is ‘more’ and what is the end game.... I’m not convinced anybody really knows. Well no. We see a long entrenched problem. How it's fixed and what that will look like is unclear. Because we all live within the problematic system. Of course we don't know "the answer". We strive to find it. But isn’t thst a large part of the concern a lot of people have. There is a strive to solve a ‘problem’ but no one seems to know what the solution is? This is my real concern with all this... no one can tell me what is actually being strived for, or what success looks like? I wholeheartedly agree that opportunities for employment/promotion/progression should be accessible to all. But I also will state that not all employment/promotion/progression is suitable for all in all areas. Yet there seems to be, in some sectors, this almost cult like drive to do ‘more’ and reach certain aspirational numbers without any real thought of the consequence of that. It’s similar, and I only mention it as it’s been brought up, to the BLM movement. Saying black lives matter(they undoubtedly do) is very different to supporting the political BLM movement... what do they actually want and what does if look like? Either way I’m pretty sure this won’t get solved on Fab" No, of course it won't be solved on Fab. I don't think we can say "we don't know what the solution is so we should stop working towards it", or thereabouts. We have a number of problems with equity in our society and it serves no one (except perhaps the mediocre elite) to ignore them. | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants? Define ‘more’.... my industry have been, and continue to do a hell of a lot in relation to D&I.... at great cost and expense ..... and they have been doing ‘more ‘ for 20 years and still not achieved their goals. So I’m always interested to what ‘More’ looks and like and what the actual aim of ‘more’ is. And then you get into the realm of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? It’s a big topic for Fab.... I’m sure the various experts will be along soon lol Well here's an example. My daughter has been encouraged at school through STEM to consider a career in science and engineering. My son however has never been encouraged to consider the beauty industry, nor does a STEM equivalent seem to exist to help. Men and women will naturally gravitate towards certain fields if left to their own devices. Why? Because we're fundamentally different on average. You can only change that through massive social engineering which contradicts the natural impulse. So you think it's wrong to encourage girls into traditional Male careers, i see. " For the last 40 years or so, girls at school were actively encoraged to take sciences. They have the abilities, but the uptake just isnt there! You cant force people into career paths. Despite the fact that kids are now forced into studying science to GCSE. It was utterly wasted on my lads. Stem subjects are hard,that is the overriding factor in its poor uptake in both boys and girls. | |||
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"When we have whatever the decided appropriate numbers of diverse individuals are in the gammet of professions and we have appointed people to roles that they are not necessarily suited, except due to their gender, colour, ethnicity or disability, we will we have life better or just arranged to suit those who feel symbolism is better than the ability to perform a job? And when we get there then what? Do we then start not employing/promoting people so we dont create inequality once we’ve addressed inequality? This comment is made quite tongue in cheek but I stand by its sentiment. It also brings me back to my original post of What actually is ‘more’ and what is the end game.... I’m not convinced anybody really knows. Well no. We see a long entrenched problem. How it's fixed and what that will look like is unclear. Because we all live within the problematic system. Of course we don't know "the answer". We strive to find it. But isn’t thst a large part of the concern a lot of people have. There is a strive to solve a ‘problem’ but no one seems to know what the solution is? This is my real concern with all this... no one can tell me what is actually being strived for, or what success looks like? I wholeheartedly agree that opportunities for employment/promotion/progression should be accessible to all. But I also will state that not all employment/promotion/progression is suitable for all in all areas. Yet there seems to be, in some sectors, this almost cult like drive to do ‘more’ and reach certain aspirational numbers without any real thought of the consequence of that. It’s similar, and I only mention it as it’s been brought up, to the BLM movement. Saying black lives matter(they undoubtedly do) is very different to supporting the political BLM movement... what do they actually want and what does if look like? Either way I’m pretty sure this won’t get solved on Fab No, of course it won't be solved on Fab. I don't think we can say "we don't know what the solution is so we should stop working towards it", or thereabouts. We have a number of problems with equity in our society and it serves no one (except perhaps the mediocre elite) to ignore them." Oh I’m not suggesting we should stop working towards a fairer and just society/work place etc. But there has to be some detail about the expected outcome of any action. Surely that’s a pretty standard thing, to have some idea of what ‘good’ looks like before you start working towards it. And I also think it’s a fair question to ask what next when you’ve got to ‘good’. I dont think any sane person can say they are bad questions to ask? | |||
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" Oh I’m not suggesting we should stop working towards a fairer and just society/work place etc. But there has to be some detail about the expected outcome of any action. Surely that’s a pretty standard thing, to have some idea of what ‘good’ looks like before you start working towards it. And I also think it’s a fair question to ask what next when you’ve got to ‘good’. I dont think any sane person can say they are bad questions to ask? " In theory I agree. In practice - I think our issues are too far entrenched. We're sort of in, shit, what now, and scrambling for answers. I hope that there's some cohesion at some level, trying to search for better. I know many organisations do have targets. But on some levels we're still butting against "this is a problem" and acknowledging something needs to be done. What does fair or just mean? Or merit (the podcast I was listening to today suggested interrogating that)? This is messy work. | |||
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"My feeling is that much of what is said regarding diversity and equality is 'hollow lip service to chasing rainbows'. The majority of 'voices' are those of middle class Guardian readers hell bent on needing to feel trendy and liberal, often hiding the truth of their own divine upbringing. They themselves are a part of the problem but want to fractionalise it and point fingers at other areas, often purely to be political. There are almost no areas (apart from the BBC...see Guardian reading liberal statement) that specifically look for a gender, race or ethnicity. A business will only thrive if it is led by the most qualified person and is run by employed personnel that are capable. Otherwise it fails. If the majority of applicants who are qualified are male or white then why is it regarded as wrong to employ them? If you had a business or was a share holder in a company would you employ someone totally unsuitable but from a minority background? All should have an opportunity but not a right through diversity. " There's some interesting points you raise, and kudos for being so candid at a time people are afraid to discuss such subjects openly for fear of the accusatory finger being pointed. But we all know that there are people in leadership positions that sit there comfortably despite there being better qualified candidates. And naturally we strive to protect our position and for our equilibrium to be nice and secure. Is this whole thing a problem? Or is it reflective of how mainstream society lives? This is as much, if not more about upbringing and education than any gender or ethnicity issue. | |||
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"My feeling is that much of what is said regarding diversity and equality is 'hollow lip service to chasing rainbows'. The majority of 'voices' are those of middle class Guardian readers hell bent on needing to feel trendy and liberal, often hiding the truth of their own divine upbringing. They themselves are a part of the problem but want to fractionalise it and point fingers at other areas, often purely to be political. There are almost no areas (apart from the BBC...see Guardian reading liberal statement) that specifically look for a gender, race or ethnicity. A business will only thrive if it is led by the most qualified person and is run by employed personnel that are capable. Otherwise it fails. If the majority of applicants who are qualified are male or white then why is it regarded as wrong to employ them? If you had a business or was a share holder in a company would you employ someone totally unsuitable but from a minority background? All should have an opportunity but not a right through diversity. " Thankfully others think differently and will be the ones who address it. However you are right in suggesting that anyone working to increase inclusivity and diversity needs to first look inward at their own biases. Understanding why only white males apply for certain jobs can at least help to see if there are barriers that need to be addressed within the system to enable a better balance. | |||
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" Oh I’m not suggesting we should stop working towards a fairer and just society/work place etc. But there has to be some detail about the expected outcome of any action. Surely that’s a pretty standard thing, to have some idea of what ‘good’ looks like before you start working towards it. And I also think it’s a fair question to ask what next when you’ve got to ‘good’. I dont think any sane person can say they are bad questions to ask? In theory I agree. In practice - I think our issues are too far entrenched. We're sort of in, shit, what now, and scrambling for answers. I hope that there's some cohesion at some level, trying to search for better. I know many organisations do have targets. But on some levels we're still butting against "this is a problem" and acknowledging something needs to be done. What does fair or just mean? Or merit (the podcast I was listening to today suggested interrogating that)? This is messy work." Exactly... I’m not sure you can ever get to a truely fair position in the workplace. But I can also see the merit in the question of should everything everywhere be fair? Personally I think we need to get to a position where the processes around Jobs/promotions Should be accessible to all and transparent. After that the ‘best’ of most appropriate person should succeed... ic that’s all white men fine, if it’s all black women fine etc etc. | |||
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"My feeling is that much of what is said regarding diversity and equality is 'hollow lip service to chasing rainbows'. The majority of 'voices' are those of middle class Guardian readers hell bent on needing to feel trendy and liberal, often hiding the truth of their own divine upbringing. They themselves are a part of the problem but want to fractionalise it and point fingers at other areas, often purely to be political. There are almost no areas (apart from the BBC...see Guardian reading liberal statement) that specifically look for a gender, race or ethnicity. A business will only thrive if it is led by the most qualified person and is run by employed personnel that are capable. Otherwise it fails. If the majority of applicants who are qualified are male or white then why is it regarded as wrong to employ them? If you had a business or was a share holder in a company would you employ someone totally unsuitable but from a minority background? All should have an opportunity but not a right through diversity. Thankfully others think differently and will be the ones who address it. However you are right in suggesting that anyone working to increase inclusivity and diversity needs to first look inward at their own biases. Understanding why only white males apply for certain jobs can at least help to see if there are barriers that need to be addressed within the system to enable a better balance." The simple equation is This job + the right person = correct person in correct job Colour, gender, ethnicity etc are not a factor or should not be a factor | |||
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" Oh I’m not suggesting we should stop working towards a fairer and just society/work place etc. But there has to be some detail about the expected outcome of any action. Surely that’s a pretty standard thing, to have some idea of what ‘good’ looks like before you start working towards it. And I also think it’s a fair question to ask what next when you’ve got to ‘good’. I dont think any sane person can say they are bad questions to ask? In theory I agree. In practice - I think our issues are too far entrenched. We're sort of in, shit, what now, and scrambling for answers. I hope that there's some cohesion at some level, trying to search for better. I know many organisations do have targets. But on some levels we're still butting against "this is a problem" and acknowledging something needs to be done. What does fair or just mean? Or merit (the podcast I was listening to today suggested interrogating that)? This is messy work. Exactly... I’m not sure you can ever get to a truely fair position in the workplace. But I can also see the merit in the question of should everything everywhere be fair? Personally I think we need to get to a position where the processes around Jobs/promotions Should be accessible to all and transparent. After that the ‘best’ of most appropriate person should succeed... ic that’s all white men fine, if it’s all black women fine etc etc. " I think society should always strive to be better. And this work should always go on. At the moment I feel like it's in a particularly painful and public period of flux. I imagine that will settle. But the work must go on. We build on the work of our forebears, and younger generations will work on ours. | |||
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" The simple equation is This job + the right person = correct person in correct job Colour, gender, ethnicity etc are not a factor or should not be a factor" In an ideal world this would be true. But we all know this is not the case. The young black male is never going to fit in with the good old boys in the house of Lords- just as the white boy from Chelsea won't ever be offered a job in the local Indian restaurant. Regardless of how competent they were. | |||
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"My feeling is that much of what is said regarding diversity and equality is 'hollow lip service to chasing rainbows'. The majority of 'voices' are those of middle class Guardian readers hell bent on needing to feel trendy and liberal, often hiding the truth of their own divine upbringing. They themselves are a part of the problem but want to fractionalise it and point fingers at other areas, often purely to be political. There are almost no areas (apart from the BBC...see Guardian reading liberal statement) that specifically look for a gender, race or ethnicity. A business will only thrive if it is led by the most qualified person and is run by employed personnel that are capable. Otherwise it fails. If the majority of applicants who are qualified are male or white then why is it regarded as wrong to employ them? If you had a business or was a share holder in a company would you employ someone totally unsuitable but from a minority background? All should have an opportunity but not a right through diversity. Thankfully others think differently and will be the ones who address it. However you are right in suggesting that anyone working to increase inclusivity and diversity needs to first look inward at their own biases. Understanding why only white males apply for certain jobs can at least help to see if there are barriers that need to be addressed within the system to enable a better balance. The simple equation is This job + the right person = correct person in correct job Colour, gender, ethnicity etc are not a factor or should not be a factor" That formula exists with social systems that have inherent bias built into them due to their historical context. The formula has no real need to change at all; however, the systems and the attitudes, beliefs and assumptions on which they are based, do. | |||
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"I do think more should be done, although rather than your examples I’d start with senior management of any company being something other than 95% pale male Why?" Because statistically the entire 95% won't be the best person for the job. | |||
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"I do think more should be done, although rather than your examples I’d start with senior management of any company being something other than 95% pale male Why? Because statistically the entire 95% won't be the best person for the job." Same for junior roles too though innit and probably even more so.....  | |||
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" The simple equation is This job + the right person = correct person in correct job Colour, gender, ethnicity etc are not a factor or should not be a factor In an ideal world this would be true. But we all know this is not the case. The young black male is never going to fit in with the good old boys in the house of Lords- just as the white boy from Chelsea won't ever be offered a job in the local Indian restaurant. Regardless of how competent they were. " Absolutely. | |||
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"I do think more should be done, although rather than your examples I’d start with senior management of any company being something other than 95% pale male Why? Because statistically the entire 95% won't be the best person for the job." From what I see of leaders in senior jobs I wonder if more than 10% are actually fit to lead.  | |||
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" The simple equation is This job + the right person = correct person in correct job Colour, gender, ethnicity etc are not a factor or should not be a factor In an ideal world this would be true. But we all know this is not the case. The young black male is never going to fit in with the good old boys in the house of Lords- just as the white boy from Chelsea won't ever be offered a job in the local Indian restaurant. Regardless of how competent they were. " That's a bit sweeping....  | |||
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"Men and women will naturally gravitate towards certain fields if left to their own devices. Why? Because we're fundamentally different on average. You can only change that through massive social engineering which contradicts the natural impulse." Will they, or is the 'natural' drift due to societal expectations? If girls are always portrayed as pink princesses and shown that the most important thing is to be pretty then they will likely gravitate towards traditionally feminine job roles but what if that wasn't the case? Are women genetically programmed to be beauticians rather than civil engineers? | |||
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"I do think more should be done, although rather than your examples I’d start with senior management of any company being something other than 95% pale male Why? Because statistically the entire 95% won't be the best person for the job. From what I see of leaders in senior jobs I wonder if more than 10% are actually fit to lead. "I wouldn't disagree with you, so we need to look at why the rest are in jobs they are not the best people for? One answer of course is that they fit the profile, Rich white men don't want diversity ruining the way they run things, imagine having a woman or a black person there? I mean they don't have to put up with it at the golf club so why should they put up with it at work? | |||
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"I do think more should be done, although rather than your examples I’d start with senior management of any company being something other than 95% pale male Why? Because statistically the entire 95% won't be the best person for the job. From what I see of leaders in senior jobs I wonder if more than 10% are actually fit to lead.
I wouldn't disagree with you, so we need to look at why the rest are in jobs they are not the best people for?
One answer of course is that they fit the profile, Rich white men don't want diversity ruining the way they run things, imagine having a woman or a black person there? I mean they don't have to put up with it at the golf club so why should they put up with it at work?"I agree wholeheartedly. My good fortune has lasted long enough, it’s about time others got a turn. | |||
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"I do think more should be done, although rather than your examples I’d start with senior management of any company being something other than 95% pale male Why? Because statistically the entire 95% won't be the best person for the job. Same for junior roles too though innit and probably even more so..... "Absolutely, people tend to recruit in their own image, which is why you will find most executives are privately educated white men, and also why factories often have generations of the same family working in them. | |||
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"I do think more should be done, although rather than your examples I’d start with senior management of any company being something other than 95% pale male Why? Because statistically the entire 95% won't be the best person for the job. From what I see of leaders in senior jobs I wonder if more than 10% are actually fit to lead.
I wouldn't disagree with you, so we need to look at why the rest are in jobs they are not the best people for?
One answer of course is that they fit the profile, Rich white men don't want diversity ruining the way they run things, imagine having a woman or a black person there? I mean they don't have to put up with it at the golf club so why should they put up with it at work?"Well I'm not rich and I don't play golf, but if I ever saw evidence of stereotyping there it is!! Albeit tongue in cheek. | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants?" A few non south easy Asians in nail bars .... how do they even get away with that , whole lines of Chinese people, would love to see their equal opportunity policy In general in UK SMEs yes, it’s dismal the lack of diversity and the lack of understanding by business owners why they need to do it to survive and grow. In larger global companies we are doing fine and the growth and pay increases is proof it’s working, diversity pays big dividends | |||
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" The simple equation is This job + the right person = correct person in correct job Colour, gender, ethnicity etc are not a factor or should not be a factor In an ideal world this would be true. But we all know this is not the case. The young black male is never going to fit in with the good old boys in the house of Lords- just as the white boy from Chelsea won't ever be offered a job in the local Indian restaurant. Regardless of how competent they were. That's a bit sweeping.... "How? | |||
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" The simple equation is This job + the right person = correct person in correct job Colour, gender, ethnicity etc are not a factor or should not be a factor In an ideal world this would be true. But we all know this is not the case. The young black male is never going to fit in with the good old boys in the house of Lords- just as the white boy from Chelsea won't ever be offered a job in the local Indian restaurant. Regardless of how competent they were. That's a bit sweeping....
How?
""Never" and "ever" - I doubt that's factually correct and it aewms a bit defeatist to me, unless I've missed something... I'll talk to or work alongside anyone and hopefully learn something from them in the process.... Stay positive and have a great evening....  | |||
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" The simple equation is This job + the right person = correct person in correct job Colour, gender, ethnicity etc are not a factor or should not be a factor In an ideal world this would be true. But we all know this is not the case. The young black male is never going to fit in with the good old boys in the house of Lords- just as the white boy from Chelsea won't ever be offered a job in the local Indian restaurant. Regardless of how competent they were. That's a bit sweeping....
How?
"Never" and "ever" - I doubt that's factually correct and it aewms a bit defeatist to me, unless I've missed something... I'll talk to or work alongside anyone and hopefully learn something from them in the process....
Stay positive and have a great evening.... "OK | |||
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"Personally I think diversity needs further redefining. It doesn't matter if you have an organisation filled to the brim of representation across all spectrums of the community if everyone confirms to the expected uniformed thinking of the organisation, or displaying perceived social/professional personas. Promoting an environment that is inclusive of the diversities of thought is what I believe would make the biggest positive changes...L x" Both are admirable, surely. | |||
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"Personally I think diversity needs further redefining. It doesn't matter if you have an organisation filled to the brim of representation across all spectrums of the community if everyone confirms to the expected uniformed thinking of the organisation, or displaying perceived social/professional personas. Promoting an environment that is inclusive of the diversities of thought is what I believe would make the biggest positive changes...L x Both are admirable, surely." Kinda, but if everyone thinks the same how can it be a diverse work environment? | |||
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"Personally I think diversity needs further redefining. It doesn't matter if you have an organisation filled to the brim of representation across all spectrums of the community if everyone confirms to the expected uniformed thinking of the organisation, or displaying perceived social/professional personas. Promoting an environment that is inclusive of the diversities of thought is what I believe would make the biggest positive changes...L x Both are admirable, surely. Kinda, but if everyone thinks the same how can it be a diverse work environment? " I don't know what you mean. I don't think all people think the same in any case, but I suspect diversity in the sense discussed here is more likely to promote diversity of thought. In some ways they're separate issues, one of social justice and another of benefits for business. | |||
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"Personally I think diversity needs further redefining. It doesn't matter if you have an organisation filled to the brim of representation across all spectrums of the community if everyone confirms to the expected uniformed thinking of the organisation, or displaying perceived social/professional personas. Promoting an environment that is inclusive of the diversities of thought is what I believe would make the biggest positive changes...L x Both are admirable, surely. Kinda, but if everyone thinks the same how can it be a diverse work environment? I don't know what you mean. I don't think all people think the same in any case, but I suspect diversity in the sense discussed here is more likely to promote diversity of thought. In some ways they're separate issues, one of social justice and another of benefits for business." I agree, my point is purely within the work environment. There is much talk of D&I in the organisation I work for and we must improve it with the focus on including individuals from all walks of life. However, the organisation relies on conformity and to get on it is perceived you must think and talk in a certain way. Now that individual may think differently out of work, but in work regardless of background they will align their thinking to everyone else. However, the organisation also wants change and to be more inclusive and diverse to allow a broad range of experience and ideas but it can't achieve that if it doesn't allow diversity and inclusion of different thinking. If everyone is thinking the same then where is, or what is the point of, the diversity? It's working on it, so at least that is a start ...L x
Maybe we all think about it waaaaay to much and by talking about it makes it an issue? Who knows (shrugs)...L x | |||
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"You also have to consider the physical aspects for some roles..most man have bigger hands and fingers so often struggle with the dexterity for some work...ie sewing whilst many women would struggle physically on heavy side construction work. I know they are trying to mechanise things but its not always possible and sheer brute strength is often needed..same as some religious grounds can prohibit work ie slaughter houses/butchers for pork or beef . A siekh wearing a turban can often be excluded from certain areas because head protection is needed and cant be worn correctly with a turban or dreadlocks. " Men can sew, just takes practice like anything else & women can lift/move weights they may use different methods than men to achieve the same task but can be done. This is coming from a Jack of all trades of a women....largely male traditional trades like mechanics, DIY, hand forming panels & welding to the more feminine of cooking, painting, accounts, writing, child raising etc. stereotyping like that doesn't help, it only makes folk think they can't, instead of trying and encourages degrading 'banter' like the dumb blonde that can't change tyre or that men can't clean, cook etc. It's just nonsense no one is born with these abilities every one has to learn how and that's driven by parents with things like making sure you girl isn't playing in mud yet your boy is covered in it but can't play houses. Personally I think alot of male roles are largely male roles due to childcare & not much else TBH. I could do many male type jobs but can't because of hours expected, I can't start before 9 nor finish after 17:30 or I would do them. Office jobs are boring as. | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants?" I tend to think people should be employed for their skills regardless of gender or ethnicity. | |||
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"Personally I think diversity needs further redefining. It doesn't matter if you have an organisation filled to the brim of representation across all spectrums of the community if everyone confirms to the expected uniformed thinking of the organisation, or displaying perceived social/professional personas. Promoting an environment that is inclusive of the diversities of thought is what I believe would make the biggest positive changes...L x Both are admirable, surely. Kinda, but if everyone thinks the same how can it be a diverse work environment? I don't know what you mean. I don't think all people think the same in any case, but I suspect diversity in the sense discussed here is more likely to promote diversity of thought. In some ways they're separate issues, one of social justice and another of benefits for business. I agree, my point is purely within the work environment. There is much talk of D&I in the organisation I work for and we must improve it with the focus on including individuals from all walks of life. However, the organisation relies on conformity and to get on it is perceived you must think and talk in a certain way. Now that individual may think differently out of work, but in work regardless of background they will align their thinking to everyone else. However, the organisation also wants change and to be more inclusive and diverse to allow a broad range of experience and ideas but it can't achieve that if it doesn't allow diversity and inclusion of different thinking. If everyone is thinking the same then where is, or what is the point of, the diversity? It's working on it, so at least that is a start ...L x
Maybe we all think about it waaaaay to much and by talking about it makes it an issue? Who knows (shrugs)...L x"This is the best indicator an organisation doesn’t understand D&I , when it’s talked about, when it’s an issue, when management are wrestling with it, those organisations will never get it until their leadership is replaced. When it works right it just happened naturally, the organisation naturally attracts diversity and just hires and promotes the best people. | |||
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"As far as senior management positions are concerned, particularly at board level or senior judges in the legal profession for example, then one thing you have to take into account is experience. To get to these levels may take decades of experience. You are not going to see a huge increase in diversity in a short space of time. Organisations are not going to cull their people just to make them fit a quota of certain people. Diversity levels are increasing, but turnover of people isnt as fast as many want the diversity to increase. People can protest, which is fine as it keeps the issue to the fore in these organisations recruitment, but you cant throw people out of positions simply to replace them with someone who ticks a box. I understand impatience, but this isnt gust a BAME or gender issue, its a class issue as well. " That’s a good point , some senior legal / civil service roles have such small numbers too. The other thing that limits it is people don’t move on when they should and create openings , final salary pension etc. You get incompetent middle managers that are blockers. I’m quite direct on this if I see someone doing the same job for more than 3 years I get suspicious, are they dead wood , do we need to move them along | |||
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"As far as senior management positions are concerned, particularly at board level or senior judges in the legal profession for example, then one thing you have to take into account is experience. To get to these levels may take decades of experience. You are not going to see a huge increase in diversity in a short space of time. Organisations are not going to cull their people just to make them fit a quota of certain people. Diversity levels are increasing, but turnover of people isnt as fast as many want the diversity to increase. People can protest, which is fine as it keeps the issue to the fore in these organisations recruitment, but you cant throw people out of positions simply to replace them with someone who ticks a box. I understand impatience, but this isnt gust a BAME or gender issue, its a class issue as well. That’s a good point , some senior legal / civil service roles have such small numbers too. The other thing that limits it is people don’t move on when they should and create openings , final salary pension etc. You get incompetent middle managers that are blockers. I’m quite direct on this if I see someone doing the same job for more than 3 years I get suspicious, are they dead wood , do we need to move them along " Depends on the place of work. Some people at my place have been their 40 years. Im usually a bit wary of people who are changing jobs every couple of years. Makes me think they move along before they get caught! | |||
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"Greater diversity in police and uniformed services would be a good thing." But do they have the number of applicants regardless of campaigns to draw in more diverse people? And are otherwise suitable people being turned away in 'positive discrimination' just to tick a diversity box? | |||
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"Greater diversity in police and uniformed services would be a good thing. But do they have the number of applicants regardless of campaigns to draw in more diverse people? And are otherwise suitable people being turned away in 'positive discrimination' just to tick a diversity box?" Surely not!! | |||
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"Greater diversity in police and uniformed services would be a good thing. But do they have the number of applicants regardless of campaigns to draw in more diverse people? And are otherwise suitable people being turned away in 'positive discrimination' just to tick a diversity box?" Maybe we need those diverse people to serve the community that they know. We have too many Politicians (and those who advise them) who have never actually lived or understand the pressures, that ordinary people go through on a daily basis. So we need more diversity when it comes to public servants, those who not only understand the underlying issues but have lived it as well. | |||
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"Greater diversity in police and uniformed services would be a good thing. But do they have the number of applicants regardless of campaigns to draw in more diverse people? And are otherwise suitable people being turned away in 'positive discrimination' just to tick a diversity box? Maybe we need those diverse people to serve the community that they know. We have too many Politicians (and those who advise them) who have never actually lived or understand the pressures, that ordinary people go through on a daily basis. So we need more diversity when it comes to public servants, those who not only understand the underlying issues but have lived it as well. " Aren't they voted for by us? | |||
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"Do you think more can be done to increase D&I at work? For instance, more men working in the beauty and women's hair styling industry, more Male primary school teachers/nursery staff, more female butchers, and more non south asians working/running Indian restaurants?" Loads of males in the female beauty industry ........... mostly gay though ..... that's inclusive innit ? Hmmmmm can I appropriate Indian recipes and sell them in my Indian restaurant ......... hmmmmmmm | |||
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