FabSwingers.com forum: Unpatriotic views

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I've seen a few facebook groups dedicated to England, or St George, or The Union and in the main they've got good responses, but there have been posts by people who are clearly living here, or were born and raised here, yet they identify themselves with another country ad/or culture. Things like "Fuck England, bunch of c***s", or "St George wasn't even English, you British turds!"

Structured criticism of how we do things over here I can accept, but this sort of anti-British diatribe I find unacceptable.

So my question is this:

Should it be a crime to make abusive statements about the country in which you *choose* to live, regardless of whether that is your country of origin or not?

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By *ovedupstillCouple
over a year ago

mullinwire

never saw you as wanting a police state mr wishy.

i have always been happy with free speech, as long as it doesnt insight hatred, and all this is is a few morons venting.

big deal.

i firmly agree that if you arent happy somewhere you should either change it, or fuck off where you think its better.

always makes me laugh to hear islamists wanting sharia law here, and taking to the streets to say so, one of the very things sharia law will not allow.

wonder if they see the irony in that lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I know where you're coming from Wishy and when I see similar it makes my bloody boil - you don't bite the hand that feeds you and all that.

But I think it would be difficult to police. Where does exercising the right to free speech to complain about the current government/foreign policy etc become illegal criticism of the country?

Although common sense should make that an easy one, when it comes to putting these things into a statute it starts to become more difficult. You would have people appealing left, right and centre and before you know it the Court of Human Rights would be all over it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

My thoughts are more along the lines of if you invited someone into your home and they then began abusing your hospitality you'd soon tell them to leave. It would never occur to me to travel to another country and then start telling the locals how crap it is.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

God thats a bit deep for a Wednesday wishy!!!

I have to say that it does annoy me when people have such hatred for this country yet continue to live here. Why, when we have such free choice, would you choose to live somewhere you hate?

Go and find a better place to live!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I know where you're coming from Wishy and when I see similar it makes my bloody boil - you don't bite the hand that feeds you and all that.

But I think it would be difficult to police. Where does exercising the right to free speech to complain about the current government/foreign policy etc become illegal criticism of the country?

I think the threat of jail or expulsion would be enough to deter most ranters from doing it, and those that still do it can be classified as undesirables much more easily.

Those lads who incited riots via facebook got a quick hard lesson in how unacceptable it is and the message got through that anyone else doing the same faced the same penalties. The law acted swiftly then and I think that's something we should look at over here. Social networking sites are like the old wild west at the moment in that they are unregulated and anyone can say pretty much anything they like. I firmly believe that accountability for the words one utters should be enforced.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

It shouldn't be a crime Wishy.

The state would use it against anyone with ideas that got in their way.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"I know where you're coming from Wishy and when I see similar it makes my bloody boil - you don't bite the hand that feeds you and all that.

But I think it would be difficult to police. Where does exercising the right to free speech to complain about the current government/foreign policy etc become illegal criticism of the country?

I think the threat of jail or expulsion would be enough to deter most ranters from doing it, and those that still do it can be classified as undesirables much more easily.

This is not a good example to support your first post.

YES the riot inciters should have been punished.

People who speak out against British policies should have the freedom to do so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Remember those people chose to stay here, so it must be better than where they think is their 'homeland'.

Also, whilst here they can say things that are anti this country, politicians etc, they couldn't in their 'Homeland'

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I know where you're coming from Wishy and when I see similar it makes my bloody boil - you don't bite the hand that feeds you and all that.

But I think it would be difficult to police. Where does exercising the right to free speech to complain about the current government/foreign policy etc become illegal criticism of the country?

I think the threat of jail or expulsion would be enough to deter most ranters from doing it, and those that still do it can be classified as undesirables much more easily.

This is not a good example to support your first post.

YES the riot inciters should have been punished.

People who speak out against British policies should have the freedom to do so."

Speaking out against British policies is one thing, insulting someone's homeland because of some notion of the Prmoised Land is Better is quite different.

As for the lads jailed for inciting riots, they weren't doing it on an altruistic crusade of betterment for the people, they did it to look clever - and to maybe grab a new TV into the bargain.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Remember those people chose to stay here, so it must be better than where they think is their 'homeland'.

Also, whilst here they can say things that are anti this country, politicians etc, they couldn't in their 'Homeland'

Some dont even have homeland and got no clue of what respect mean.

Send them back to where they are originaly from and they will run back straight away here.

I born and bred in Paris from african parents and know how to respect other people culture and heritage

I now live in England and i call here HOME and love it.

I will make sure that my kids respect this great country and his hospitality

Nice subject by the way and you guys should not be worried about calling stupids as stupids

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"It shouldn't be a crime Wishy.

The state would use it against anyone with ideas that got in their way. "

bingo... and you'll tend to find the countries that do have this type of law tend to be the ones that don't have a good track record of democracy as they tend to use it to stifle free speech...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It shouldn't be a crime Wishy.

The state would use it against anyone with ideas that got in their way.

bingo... and you'll tend to find the countries that do have this type of law tend to be the ones that don't have a good track record of democracy as they tend to use it to stifle free speech..."

I'm pretty certain that should such a law be passed it can be structured in a way that it can't be abused. No system is infallible and one or two may get caught up in wrongful accusations but again, the system is such that those miscarriages can be rectified.

I'm talking more about people who wave placards saying "Death to Brits", or "British Army Baby Killers", or even facebook postings of "All brits are c***s", that kind of thing, which is a far cry from demonstrating against a new tax, or armed incursions abroad where the mandate to be there isn't clear.

An article on the news this morning summed it up nicely when it was re_iewing the Jubilee. It highlighted the fact that the Union Jack had been hijacked by far-right groups in recent years but the Jubilee had pulled it firmly back into centre place in our society as it was seen literally everywhere (I don't think I've ever seen our national flag in such abundance before).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think we will always face criticism of our acts of force overseas, but they are not wholly our fault. Sometimes we have to act within the framework of duress that a foreign power imposes in order to progress with our actions overseas, and thus it is often misconstrued as an act of senseless violence when really we had no other alternative than to act in the manner to which we are being criticised.

Other regimes have far more blood on their hands. On balance we do have to usually consider how much before we let a single drop.

Wolf

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i am totally baffled with nationalism

you had no choice in your nationality so why would you be proud of it?

I am very thankful I am english as I believe it is a brilliant country to live it but I take no pride in being english or take pride in the positive points of english/British society because I played no part in constructing them

nationalism makes about as much sense to me as being proud of a freckle on my finger because I had just as much involved in that as being english

it feels like its just racism by the back door, so many people hide their racism by national pride, as displayed in every thread on this topic where people use language like 'go back home' etc

and on the point of wanting to change certain things for the better, i LOVE where i am from and one of the reasons for this is because if i feel like something is wrong I am free to voice my opinion and try to change it for the better

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm talking more about people who wave placards saying "Death to Brits", or "British Army Baby Killers", or even facebook postings of "All brits are c***s", that kind of thing, which is a far cry from demonstrating against a new tax, or armed incursions abroad where the mandate to be there isn't clear.

Now see, some of those would be easy to cover because they're inciting hatred. But I think it would be difficult to prosecute in cases like your last example because people would argue it was their right to express that opinion. Frustrating as it is, I think it would be a difficult law to police and would, as others have said, be open to abuse.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

surely the best way to to deal with such things is to turn the other cheek and ignore them, it is done for effect so not to react will just kill the effect surely

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By *tensonSwingersCouple
over a year ago

Stenson Fields

"It shouldn't be a crime Wishy.

The state would use it against anyone with ideas that got in their way.

bingo... and you'll tend to find the countries that do have this type of law tend to be the ones that don't have a good track record of democracy as they tend to use it to stifle free speech...

It's called the Union Flag. It's only called Union Jack when raised up the flagpole at sea.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

I have zero tolerance for the ex pats who slag off the country, yet if something went wrong they would be squealing for the government to save them.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It's called the Union Flag. It's only called Union Jack when raised up the flagpole at sea.

Read the Union Flag/Jack thread.

I call it the Union Jack as that's good enough for me.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

A law making it a criminal offence to insult one's nationality (which to me would be insulting my flag and/or country) would be much the same as it is currently a crime to insult someone BECAUSE of their nationality (Race-Hate Laws).

I reiterate that if someone came to my home and insulted me they'd find themselves on the pavement quicker than Speedy Gonzalez on amphetamine, so I see no reason why we shouldn't offer the same exit for people who clearly don't like our country.

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"My thoughts are more along the lines of if you invited someone into your home and they then began abusing your hospitality you'd soon tell them to leave. It would never occur to me to travel to another country and then start telling the locals how crap it is.

Likewise you don't travel half way across the world, ask people to come and help the motherland, only to be treated like shit when you arrive.

I remember asking my parents why they let white people treat them like that. Their response? You don't insult people in their home. My parents generation had a dignity about them, striving to help an ungrateful, nasty people even though they were abused on a near daily basis.

Personally, I follow the example as set by my parents, but I understand where those that don't are coming from.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"i am totally baffled with nationalism

you had no choice in your nationality so why would you be proud of it?"

If I mentioned that to my parents they'd feel insulted. They raised me to believe in their values until I became old enough and educated enough to establish my own set of core principles, but they would be mortified if I said I have no pride in being British because I didn't choose to be born here. They made that choice for me as let's face it, they couldn't very well ask me where I wanted to be born, could they.

That's akin to saying, thanks for the grub but you can do the washing up, I'm off.

The construction of our society is continually evolving and you have your part to play in it too. You can't just sit on the sidelines all your life taking what scraps are thrown to you and give nothing back. You get out what you put in.

"it feels like its just racism by the back door, so many people hide their racism by national pride, as displayed in every thread on this topic where people use language like 'go back home' etc"

Nationalism taken to the extreme can be racist, but not what we're talking about here.

There's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion if you have something to say about something you feel strongly about, but if what you say is intended merely to offend someone and not debate any specific issue at all then that doesn't, and shouldn't, be afforded protection under the umbrella of Free Speech.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Likewise you don't travel half way across the world, ask people to come and help the motherland, only to be treated like shit when you arrive.

Personally, I follow the example as set by my parents, but I understand where those that don't are coming from.

When you asked them that question did you include the word 'all' between the words 'let' and 'white'?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Speaking as a former soldier with overseas combat service I find it hard to stomach when I see people burn the union flag/jack in our own country, often when such an act within thier homeland country wud trigger some responce from the government/police. Speaking out verbally and forming political groups is fine if you wish to change policy or laws...rioting and destruction of propety, physical violence is not ever acceptable. I am with another poster, I would not dream of visting a country and begin to abuse them for thier laws or culture/govt....I see myself as a guest there and as such I behave myself. another poster states if you dont like it here....leave, again has my support no ones forcing people to reside here. British culture is who we are...our identity and defines our place within the world and needs protection. rant over Chris x

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By *kmale421Man
over a year ago

wirral

I don't know for sure, but I'd make a pretty good guess that many of the people you see on the odd occasion burning the flag, or for that matter protesting against soldiers when they are doing homecoming marches after returning from Afghanistan or previously Iraq, are actually born in the UK

For example the terrorists from 2005 were British born and brought up in Leeds, The shoe bomber was British too, the key link seems to have been religion and linking themselves to their forefathers birth nations.

A similar thing happend in USA when many Irish Catholic Americans affiliatted themselves with the IRA and actively fund raised to pass money over to terrorists. Ofcourse, once terrorism arrived in USA, both the home grown sort of Oklahoma or the horrors of 911, American attitudes changed massively.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've seen a few facebook groups dedicated to England, or St George, or The Union and in the main they've got good responses, but there have been posts by people who are clearly living here, or were born and raised here, yet they identify themselves with another country ad/or culture. Things like "Fuck England, bunch of c***s", or "St George wasn't even English, you British turds!"

Structured criticism of how we do things over here I can accept, but this sort of anti-British diatribe I find unacceptable.

So my question is this:

Should it be a crime to make abusive statements about the country in which you *choose* to live, regardless of whether that is your country of origin or not?

One of the benefits of a free society is being able to say what you want, even if that means you don't like what others have to say. As a nationalist i believe i should be entitled to my _iews of an independent Scotland, unfortunately some people think thats somehow offensive or should be shouted down.

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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

"Speaking as a former soldier with overseas combat service I find it hard to stomach when I see people burn the union flag/jack in our own country, often when such an act within thier homeland country wud trigger some responce from the government/police. Speaking out verbally and forming political groups is fine if you wish to change policy or laws...rioting and destruction of propety, physical violence is not ever acceptable. I am with another poster, I would not dream of visting a country and begin to abuse them for thier laws or culture/govt....I see myself as a guest there and as such I behave myself. another poster states if you dont like it here....leave, again has my support no ones forcing people to reside here. British culture is who we are...our identity and defines our place within the world and needs protection. rant over Chris x"
Ahhhh now see i agree with almost everything you have said there apart from one thing....what is British culture exactly? Now the way i see it its very muddied now with the so called multicultural society we live in, personally i dont think a mutlicultural society exists, i know lots may disagree but i know im right, i think it all depends where you live also, where my mother lives there was not a jot of red white and blue over the jubilee weekend. They embrace their own cultures but not that of the country that has welcomed them and given them countless opportunites to lead a better life and their off spring who are british citizens also have no identity apart from that of their forefathers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I served a tour in ireland during the troubles and remember the anti american feeling at thier support of the IRA and other groups. I also recall the anto french feeling (much higher intensity) in 83/84 after the falklands for seeling the argies arms used against us....but this is foriegn governments acting. Altho I disliked it too but its the individuals at home that cause more hurt. For eg some people burning poppies on remembrance day....and the student the police caught taking a pee on a war memorial. Its a shamefull act and an abuse of the freedom that the armed services protect. chris

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By *kmale421Man
over a year ago

wirral

Structured criticism of how we do things over here I can accept, but this sort of anti-British diatribe I find unacceptable.

So my question is this:

Should it be a crime to make abusive statements about the country in which you *choose* to live, regardless of whether that is your country of origin or not?

LOL I agree Scotland should be independant, we'll just keep hold of The English Oil and you can have your Scottish Banks back once you've repaid all the debts back....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

LOL I agree Scotland should be independant, we'll just keep hold of The English Oil and you can have your Scottish Banks back once you've repaid all the debts back....

Well theres not all that much of it in england but good luck with it, quite happy to take on the debt. you can take your nuclear submarines and weapons back though, good luck finding somewhere for them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Should it be a crime to make abusive statements about the country in which you *choose* to live, regardless of whether that is your country of origin or not?

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By *kmale421Man
over a year ago

wirral

"I served a tour in ireland during the troubles and remember the anti american feeling at thier support of the IRA and other groups. I also recall the anto french feeling (much higher intensity) in 83/84 after the falklands for seeling the argies arms used against us....but this is foriegn governments acting. Altho I disliked it too but its the individuals at home that cause more hurt. For eg some people burning poppies on remembrance day....and the student the police caught taking a pee on a war memorial. Its a shamefull act and an abuse of the freedom that the armed services protect. chris"

Your right Chris and I agree with you totally on this.

I suppose the consolation is that the freedom that British forces protect includes allowing people the right to legally protest and disagree. The peeing incident was a d*unken youth who was punished by the law, and if I recall when he sobered up he apologised for what he'd done too. The burning of poppies is beyound my comprehension, though I repect the C4 Newscaster whose name escapes me, but he always wears mad ties, to choose not to wear a poppy on TV, rather than being forced to wear one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Personally I think its way way to late to do anything about this sort of thing. Unfortunately we have allowed our society to become very polluted by selfish thought processes. I have given blood and taken it for this country over the years, sworn the oath etc etc etc. Very often I wish I had nt, especially when you hear some of the bitching that goes on in society now. I often wish I had not been involved in the defence of our once great nation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Personally I think its way way to late to do anything about this sort of thing. Unfortunately we have allowed our society to become very polluted by selfish thought processes. I have given blood and taken it for this country over the years, sworn the oath etc etc etc. Very often I wish I had nt, especially when you hear some of the bitching that goes on in society now. I often wish I had not been involved in the defence of our once great nation.

I feel what your saying teach, it has been allowed to continue to long, I dont agree its to late tho......part of the british culture is extreme over politness leading to us tolerating a little to much. I am all for protecting the minorities but not at the sacrifice off the majority. It cannot continue as is indefinatly or we shall see a backlash within our society. chris x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wishy

Come and sort my mate out please

He's Portuguese but been in the UK longer than he has his own country.

20 odd years on it's 'you british !' or 'we don't have this shit in portugal'

I've said many a time 'well go back to portugal then' (OK, that was selfish - I was thinking about cheap holidays)

but can you ever take anyones national identity away from them ?

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

I agree with Wishy and some of the other posters that "when in Rome..." and also to be respectful of the country you live in, especially so when it is not your native country.

If I did not like it over here I could choose to move back home; I dont as I find Britain a great place to be; particularly the sense of humour when in crisis, the stoic attitude towards anything uncomfortable including the weather and the overall great tolerance of foreigners.

No intentions of going home, guys -

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the ignorance of everyone in this thread saying things like 'if you dont like it go home' etc is staggering

you would think the UK is absolutely perfect the way these people react to criticism

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Wishy

Come and sort my mate out please

He's Portuguese but been in the UK longer than he has his own country.

20 odd years on it's 'you british !' or 'we don't have this shit in portugal'

I've said many a time 'well go back to portugal then' (OK, that was selfish - I was thinking about cheap holidays)

but can you ever take anyones national identity away from them ?"

I had the same thing with my ex-father in law. He'd often criticise the English when legislation stopped him running his business the way he wanted to (basically, he had two sets of ledgers, one for him, and one the taxman saw).

The funny thing is, he's been in this country longer than his 'home' country. He'd raised his children to speak English and still talks about being buried 'back home' when he pops off.

He's harmless with his tirades though, not like those I was paraphrasing in my opening post.

If the truth be known he, and your Portugeuse chum I suspect, don't really have any idea how things really are in their home countries anymore having been over here for so long, which kind of drives my point about young people of foreign stock born in the UK, but who have never lived in the country they lay claim to, feeling justified in attacking what it is to be British. How fucked up is that.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"the ignorance of everyone in this thread saying things like 'if you dont like it go home' etc is staggering

you would think the UK is absolutely perfect the way these people react to criticism"

If I came to your house and called you a twat you would probably tell me to go home, vociferously.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"the ignorance of everyone in this thread saying things like 'if you dont like it go home' etc is staggering

you would think the UK is absolutely perfect the way these people react to criticism

If I came to your house and called you a twat you would probably tell me to go home, vociferously."

So Im ignorant now ? I had imagined I had posted in a reasonable manner.....the UK is far from perfect...we have problems but its the way we deal with problems that makes us british.... nothings ever perfect including the UK but we keep a stiff upper lip and carry on trying..... ignorance indeed !!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It shouldn't be a crime Wishy.

The state would use it against anyone with ideas that got in their way. "

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By *bbandflowCouple
over a year ago

South Devon

'During fourteen years the nation has been at the mercy of decadent elements which have abused our confidence.during fourteen years done nothing but destroy , disintegrate and dissolve'..Hitler 1933.

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By *harax1985Man
over a year ago

Edlington

The fact anyone might think it ok to make being unpatriotic a crime is depressing on so many levels.

Especially when it has fuck-all to do with patriotism - Patriotism being devotion to one's own country, not the country someone happens to be in at the moment, or the leaders or institutions of that country. If you're English, saying "England is shit" is unpatriotic. Saying "The Army is shit" or "The Government are shit" isn't.

The second you make a law about it, it'll be abused - the same way anti-terror legislation is routinely abused to arrest photographers, or anti-demonstration legislation is used to disrupt legitimate protest. Do you really think more legislation, especially around something as vague as "patriotism" is a good idea?

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By *bbandflowCouple
over a year ago

South Devon

"The fact anyone might think it ok to make being unpatriotic a crime is depressing on so many levels.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

To say someone is ignorant because they offer an oppinion such as "go home then" is comical. It is in fact one of many sensible solutions to the problem.

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By *harax1985Man
over a year ago

Edlington

"To say someone is ignorant because they offer an oppinion such as "go home then" is comical. It is in fact one of many sensible solutions to the problem.

It is quite ignorant to tell someone to go home for being unpatriotic. If it's not their country they're slagging off it's not unpatriotic, and if it is then they're already home!

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By *bbandflowCouple
over a year ago

South Devon

"To say someone is ignorant because they offer an oppinion such as "go home then" is comical. It is in fact one of many sensible solutions to the problem.

"
So what's your sensible solution to those with 'unpatriotic' _iews who have regarded the UK as their home for generations. Where would you send them..prison ships to Australia !!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

we have way to many laws in this country anyway apart from it being unworkable.

in these liberal times people must accept that we all have oppinions and generally the right to voice those veiws. I dont support the _iew of people coming into the country and then to slag it off, in the same way as I dont support the _iew of the go home culture. That said I would (and have)fight and die to support individuals right to express their oppions.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"we have way to many laws in this country anyway apart from it being unworkable.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"we have way to many laws in this country anyway apart from it being unworkable.

But we're not trying to deny people the right to express an opinion, just those who set out to deliberately insult with no argument other than 'your country is shit', or some such other. If they say it from within the confines of the borders of their own country then there's not much we can do about it, apart from make a note and block them from entering the UK should they try to do so, but if they say it whilst here we should be able to deport them.

Try slagging off America when you're over there and loud enough to be heard by officialdom and you'll soon find yourself on the first plane home.

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By *harax1985Man
over a year ago

Edlington

and...you think America is a GOOD model to follow?

Really? when you hear about the TSA frisking little girls and keeping them from their parents, you get people like George Zimmerman shooting a ten year old for "looking shifty", Arizona basically going up to anyone not white and asking to see "their papers" (sounds a bit familiar)you think "Fuck yeah, that's the kind of patriotism we need over here"?

All these things are done in the name of Patriotism. None of them are patriotic.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

No, I don't actually, it was just an example.

I'm all for people airing their _iews in a tolerant society but if someone tells me I'm a cunt because I'm British and says my country is crap then he shouldn't be too surprised if he finds my size 9 connecting with his rectum shortly after saying it. I'd much prefer to have the prat deported though.

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By *harax1985Man
over a year ago

Edlington

What about if someone said "You're a cunt, and you're English, but there's not necessarily a causal relationship at work there"?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

if you want a country where you arent allowed to critise it....

could always move to syria

thats what makes this country great,,,we are not in a dictatorship where you are not free to speak

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"What about if someone said "You're a cunt, and you're English, but there's not necessarily a causal relationship at work there"?

If they don't elaborate on the connection between being English and being a cunt I'll take it that they mean I'm a cunt because I'm English. 2+2 sometimes = 4 you know.

You're nitpicking here, and free speech can only remain free if the people using it regulate themselves when using it - otherwise they'll find it policed for them. I certainly don't subscribe to the idea that free speech should be protected at all costs, and ultimately you are responsible for the words that fall out of your mouth.

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

Hmmm difficult. I am an anglophile, but even I bitch about the weather, our politicians, the price of food, silly things religious people say, how crap the TV is these days, and so on. I suppose there would be some sort of committee in place to decide which remarks are classed as patriotic and non-patriotic? And what happens to british people if they say them? Fines? Prison? Deportation???

By the way, St George wasn't british. In fact I think he is the patron saint of at least 5 countries. Obviously killing dragons is a desirable trait around the world. Wonder if he does mothers too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 06/06/12 19:31:17]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The right to insult is a part of free speech. Im just happy to know those people are probably miserable individuals who get there kicks insulting people on internet messageboards. I wouldn't want to deport them though.

Even the "British army baby killers" one is tricky, there is evidence of civilian casualties in Iraq/Afghanistan some of whom were babies which makes them baby killers. Im not suggesting they did it on purpose, its not like they were bayoneted they would have been 'collateral damage' from bombing missions but they still died and someone still killed them making it a fact. It might be unpleasant and you might not want to hear it but it is a fact. Now 'death to British soldiers' would be a much more clear cut and straight forward example of inciting hatred.

Anti-free speech laws have a habit of evolving to include any act of dissent and we already have laws to deal with inciting violence and criminal acts.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The right to insult is a part of free speech."

Well that makes it ok then, so long as one's right to free speech is upheld it doesn't matter who's feelings get trampled on in the process.

Free speech is not a right, it is a priviledge and if it is abused one should expect that priviledge to be withdrawn.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Should it be a crime to make abusive statements about the country in which you *choose* to live, regardless of whether that is your country of origin or not?

agreed...

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"The right to insult is a part of free speech.

Well that makes it ok then, so long as one's right to free speech is upheld it doesn't matter who's feelings get trampled on in the process.

Free speech is not a right, it is a priviledge and if it is abused one should expect that priviledge to be withdrawn."

free speech is a fundamental right, not a priveledge..

no one should decide or have the 'power' to dictate who can say what etc..

think Voltaire summed it up quite well tbh..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The right to insult is a part of free speech.

Well that makes it ok then, so long as one's right to free speech is upheld it doesn't matter who's feelings get trampled on in the process.

Free speech is not a right, it is a priviledge and if it is abused one should expect that priviledge to be withdrawn."

Its a right that should have as few caveats attached to it as possible. People have a right to say what ever they want providing they take responsibility for the consequences. If it is a privilege it must be granted to you by someone or something, it can be too easily withdrawn. If you don't like what someone says you have to right to reply, to tell them why you think they are wrong to insult something you may hold dear. Part of free speech is letting others have the freedom to express there _iews, if you deny them free speech you fundamentally weaken your own right to free speech and leave yourself open to censure.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

today on the day the D-Day landings begun to protect our freedom these people who express the _iew of hating the nation they live in is their right.

better to have that right of opinion than to have heavy handed mobs smashing your door down and carting you off in the middle of the night because you dont agree with them.

so today of all days.

think about those who braved them beaches, battled against the odds and payed the ultimate price.

so you,me and the people can express our _iews.

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"today on the day the D-Day landings begun to protect our freedom these people who express the _iew of hating the nation they live in is their right."

Blimey, completely forgot this! And you're right. Although WWII was not fought to preserve free speech, it is one of the reasons we hold it so dear.

I am sure us British say nasty things about the foreign countries we visit, so maybe we should be a bit thicker skinned when it comes to people over here. Either that or educate them to understand what a brill place the UK is.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This has gotten very twisted.... the british services protect all off your rights to free speach....often with thier lifes. Comments like baby killer and others seemingly supporting it are insulting, perhaps the poster shud go train draw a weapon and stand a guard duty or go on patrol, then perhaps your point of _iew may change when u see some of the true horrors that happens abroad. I firmly believe if your not happy in the Uk go home is a reasonable position....no one forces people either way...leave or stay. Seems to me to be ridiculous to continue to live in a place that makes you unhappy. my prior posts at no point said they shud shut up or shud be silenced by any govt authority. Visitors weather permanent or temporary to our country shud pay some reciprocal respect for our _iews beliefs values laws and religeous beliefs....as I would as a visitor to other nations. Chris

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"The right to insult is a part of free speech.

Well that makes it ok then, so long as one's right to free speech is upheld it doesn't matter who's feelings get trampled on in the process.

Free speech is not a right, it is a priviledge and if it is abused one should expect that priviledge to be withdrawn.

free speech is a fundamental right, not a priveledge..

no one should decide or have the 'power' to dictate who can say what etc..

think Voltaire summed it up quite well tbh.."
Indeed he did !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"today on the day the D-Day landings begun to protect our freedom these people who express the _iew of hating the nation they live in is their right."

Also 30 years ago right now british forces were fighting to protect a minoritys choice of government in the falklands.

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By *harax1985Man
over a year ago

Edlington

Well yes, when you expel the original colonists in 1833 and ship over a bunch of your countrymen, then go "Do you want to be British or Argentinian?" they do tend to go "Well, we were British before you put us here, so British please"

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By *umourCouple
over a year ago

Rushden

Wishy, I would much rather they say it openly and we know who they are, than them say it in private and we have no idea...

Although I don't want laws to stop this kind of hatred, I can't help but look at all the legislation passed in the recent past, to protect certain segments of our community! Perhaps the ones who aren't directly protected should have the same protection under law?

If I called a black person a "Black cunt" that is racial hatred. I presume that if that same black guy calls me a "White cunt" then I have the same protection under law? And if I have, would the authorities act on it! And I am asking because I really don't know!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The right to insult is a part of free speech.

Well that makes it ok then, so long as one's right to free speech is upheld it doesn't matter who's feelings get trampled on in the process.

Free speech is not a right, it is a priviledge and if it is abused one should expect that priviledge to be withdrawn.

You contradicted yourself with your opening gambit warning that with free speech comes the consequences for using it. What consequences? Who will set those consequences? What will the punishment be?

Our society maybee built upon a belief in the right to free speech but try exercising that right with _iews considered unpalatable to the majority. You'll be silenced very quickly, one case in point is Nick Griffin - I don't agree with any of his policies or what his party stands for but he is denied the right to speak of his ideaology to the masses alongside the mainstream political parties. Under your argument, doesn't he have the right to free speech?

free speech is a fundamental right, not a priveledge..

no one should decide or have the 'power' to dictate who can say what etc..

The power already exists. You do not have the right to abuse someone because of their gender, race, sex, or sexuality, yet you have the right to free speech. Really?

(I am not advocating or endorsing any person who abuses another verbally for any reason)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Wishy, I would much rather they say it openly and we know who they are, than them say it in private and we have no idea...

You would like to think so but the reality would probably be that your claim for racial hatred against someone would be quietly brushed aside in the interest of wider racial harmony.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well yes, when you expel the original colonists in 1833 and ship over a bunch of your countrymen, then go "Do you want to be British or Argentinian?" they do tend to go "Well, we were British before you put us here, so British please""

Your applying modern day morality to somthing thats about 180 years ago. No country or kingdom in that era had developed enough to see the wrong in many actions taken at the time. In the modern era we would of course not take this action but you cannot apply modern morality retrospectivly. The argies sole claim is purely down to being in the locality...hardly a strong position. Who can say if the original people there were of an argentinian descent or not.

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By *ushroom7Man
over a year ago

Bradford

"The right to insult is a part of free speech.

Well that makes it ok then, so long as one's right to free speech is upheld it doesn't matter who's feelings get trampled on in the process.

Free speech is not a right, it is a priviledge and if it is abused one should expect that priviledge to be withdrawn.

free speech is a fundamental right, not a priveledge..

no one should decide or have the 'power' to dictate who can say what etc..

think Voltaire summed it up quite well tbh.. Indeed he did !

Personally, i think Voltaire had a superb command of the English language.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This has gotten very twisted.... the british services protect all off your rights to free speach....often with thier lifes. Comments like baby killer and others seemingly supporting it are insulting, perhaps the poster shud go train draw a weapon and stand a guard duty or go on patrol, then perhaps your point of _iew may change when u see some of the true horrors that happens abroad. I firmly believe if your not happy in the Uk go home is a reasonable position....no one forces people either way...leave or stay. Seems to me to be ridiculous to continue to live in a place that makes you unhappy. my prior posts at no point said they shud shut up or shud be silenced by any govt authority. Visitors weather permanent or temporary to our country shud pay some reciprocal respect for our _iews beliefs values laws and religeous beliefs....as I would as a visitor to other nations. Chris"

Thats a bit harsh. I have the utmost respect for what the armed forces do and the circumstances in which they do it. Im hardly unique in saying that a lot of my family have served in the forces and they saw horrific things during there enlistments.

I doubt my joining of the army would change my _iew on free speech, it would be/is upsetting to see those slogans on placards but if they want to do it then that is upto them. I would be well within my right to challenge them on there _iews.

My point was not in support of the message those people wanted to convey but in there right to do it no matter how uncomfortable it is to read. It was also to point out the difficulties in trying to legislate laws limiting free speech that the slogan "British army baby killers", while offensive, is neither condoning violence against anyone nor inciting it. It can be looked on as a statement of fact, children die in wars and this makes some people, especially if they have a link to the group of people suffering the casualties very unhappy. I would also argue that the sentiment is misplaced as the ultimate responsibility lies with those who ordered the troops there in the first place and not with the individual soldier.

Yes the statement "if your not happy, go home" is a reasonable statement providing they have a home to go to or that this isn't there home which for many it is.

No the army is a tool of government, if they clamped down on free speech and there was mass civil unrest do you think the army wouldn't follow the orders of the government to restore order? Taking your comment at face value though, by limiting people freedom of expression and speech isnt that undermining the sacrifice of soldiers who gave there lives to protect it by taking it away from people you disagree with?

Yes people should respect the values of there host country and one of our values is free speech which as far as i can tell they are respecting by not asking for it to be removed from others, unlike some posters on here. If they abuse the right to free speech by using it to incite violence towards others then they have to pay the same penalty as the rest of us, jail, for violating there responsibility for respecting the right to life of others.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If they abuse the right to free speech by using it to incite violence towards others then they have to pay the same penalty as the rest of us, jail, for violating there responsibility for respecting the right to life of others."

You have finally answered my opening post. If someone violates their responsibility for using free speech whilst respecting the rights of others to live without fear of abuse or persection then they should be jailed. If they are foreign nationals visiting here we have the right to deport them for contravening our laws.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You contradicted yourself with your opening gambit warning that with free speech comes the consequences for using it. What consequences? Who will set those consequences? What will the punishment be?

The power already exists. You do not have the right to abuse someone because of their gender, race, sex, or sexuality, yet you have the right to free speech. Really?

(I am not advocating or endorsing any person who abuses another verbally for any reason)"

Ive answered the first bit in another post, but to recap.. The responsibility of free speech is to not use it in an attempt to encourage or promote the violation of another fundamental right of another human being and if you break that responsibility you have to be happy to live with the consequence which in the case of enticing violence is jail.

Yes i do believe Nick Griffin has the right to free speech and i was happy when he was allowed on question time because it showed him up for the numpty he is, as long as he doesnt use his right to free speech to infringe on the rights of all people to be treated equally irrespective of there race, creed, gender etc and if he wants to do that then he better be happy to take the consequences such as jail, which has happened to a lot of people in his party.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But that wasnt your point. Your point was that someone on facebook called English people cunts and it annoyed you so you wanted to deport or arrest them.

Totally different from calling for the mass execution or systematic murder of anyone who identifies themselves as English isn't it? -- Which would be illegal

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I believe that political asylum shud be granted in the Uk to deserving cases, however if they go on to criminality (serious crime) I think we shud also have the right to remove it and ask them to move on. the other posters _iew that his _iew of life, values and opinions would not be changed by serving in the forces is nieve to say the least....I served in the balkans when yugoslavia broke up while seconded to the UN peace keeping force and saw first hand racial cleansing. Its changed me forever as an individual and has defined my life and _iewpoint. you shud re read my posts from this afternoon....I do not support resticting peoples right to free speach....I do think others shud respect our country and its values and identity...its just as valid as any other.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

But that wasnt your point. Your point was that someone on facebook called English people cunts and it annoyed you so you wanted to deport or arrest them.

Totally different from calling for the mass execution or systematic murder of anyone who identifies themselves as English isn't it? -- Which would be illegal"

It didn't annoy me, it downright offended me. This is my country by birthright and I am proud of it. It identifies who I am, where I come from, and allows me to identify with others of my kind. That's not me being insecure, it's me being what I am - human, and humans are pack animals. We will fight off interlopers to our 'packs' if we feel that person isn't welcome, or is disruptive, or has dark intentions. It is an instinct.

Watch any wildlife programme and you'll see the exact same wars between packs of the same species going on to protect territory and the status quo. We are no different and someone in the midst of a 'pack' of Britons who stands up and starts shouting, "all you Brits are cunts," well, you don't have to be Einstein to work out what will happen next, free speech or not.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I believe that political asylum shud be granted in the Uk to deserving cases, however if they go on to criminality (serious crime) I think we shud also have the right to remove it and ask them to move on. the other posters _iew that his _iew of life, values and opinions would not be changed by serving in the forces is nieve to say the least....I served in the balkans when yugoslavia broke up while seconded to the UN peace keeping force and saw first hand racial cleansing. Its changed me forever as an individual and has defined my life and _iewpoint. you shud re read my posts from this afternoon....I do not support resticting peoples right to free speach....I do think others shud respect our country and its values and identity...its just as valid as any other."

1) we do have the right to deport foreign nationals who break our laws

2) Im sure it would change me in a lot of ways but it is my sincere hope it would not change my _iews on freedom of speech and expression.

3) I never said you did, my posts were more aimed at the OP and as a bit of a general _iew point.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I dont think foreign nationals who have been granted asylum can be deported for breaking the law....I think they are protected by european human rights act from deportation......I may well be wrong as im no lawyer

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I dont think foreign nationals who have been granted asylum can be deported for breaking the law....I think they are protected by european human rights act from deportation......I may well be wrong as im no lawyer"

Its very hard but it can happen, usually they end up being held in detention for a long period of time after there right to remain is withdrawn.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Likewise you don't travel half way across the world, ask people to come and help the motherland, only to be treated like shit when you arrive.

Personally, I follow the example as set by my parents, but I understand where those that don't are coming from.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Have you finished????

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The problem with punishing these people is that it still doesn't stop them from holding those particular beliefs, all it does is stop them saying them out loud.

Making that illegal is almost like saying everyone should believe the country is perfect and not speak out for any change. Yes the change and vitriol these idiots spout is extreme, but it's only a handful of absolute morons egged on by lefties.

I just ignore them mostly but when I'm feeling sadistic I'll torture them with arguments they have no chance of winning. And I know I'll always win because they have already pointed out their intellectual inferiority by holding such _iews in the first place.

Freedom of speech is fine with me as long as its not harassment or abuse. With regards to when the harassment and abuse lines are crossed, well that's where we have to make sure our legal system is great.

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By *ushroom7Man
over a year ago

Bradford

"The problem with punishing these people is that it still doesn't stop them from holding those particular beliefs, all it does is stop them saying them out loud.

Good luck.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

well that's where we have to make sure our legal system is great.

I dont see how else the legal system can be greater than it is already

This is what i like about this country

Even when you are in the wrong you can still get justice

So no legal system will change an idiot mind

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The problem with punishing these people is that it still doesn't stop them from holding those particular beliefs, all it does is stop them saying them out loud.

Egged on by lefties? Now that is rubbish, so the politically right wing EDL who also spout some vile rubbish are egged on by "lefties"? The central tenets of the "leftie" groups i belong to are freedom of speech and tolerance & equality of all people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's called the Union Flag. It's only called Union Jack when raised up the flagpole at sea.

Read the Union Flag/Jack thread.

I call it the Union Jack as that's good enough for me."

There is always going to be one smart arse... I believe there was an act of Parliament passed in the early 1900's (1908) I think, where it was agreed that the union flag may be referred to as the Union Jack without the necessity for it to be mounted on a jack staff, thus adoption of the name "Union Jack" was formalised.... thus endeth the lesson. Lol.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yeah knew I shouldn't have said that. I've always maintained the left have a good ideology, but in practise it is unworkable. Of course it would be amazing if everyone was equal etc. but that just isn't realistic.

Anyway I'm going off the point so I'll elaborate. It was wrong of me to use the word lefties so broadly, my main gripe is with those on the left (such as the UAF), just like I have problems with the extreme right (for very obvious reasons). The UAF ironically protect and harbour extreme right wing _iews (in the sense that there are many members who are islamists and would want sharia law etc.)

Personally I don't like the left wing, right wing labels. They dont represent the full spectrum of peoples beliefs. I'm a libertarian who hates socialism. Now where do you place me on the left wing right wing spectrum? My point here being that left wing, right wing are interpreted very differently by different people.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

" The central tenets of the "leftie" groups i belong to are freedom of speech and tolerance & equality of all people."

Just how 'left' would you be prepared to go to uphold and protect those tenets?

Equality is a myth. As long as one mind is more superior than another, or one person has more ambition than another, there you will also find greed in abundance. It is folly to try and peg everyone back so that the weakest mind, or the weakest body can feel the illusion of equality. People are not equal, they never have been and they never will be. The school playground should have taught you that, as it's there that you will find base human beings without any moral constructs and with only a rudimentary notion of right and wrong, but they don't really understand it which is why kids can be the cruellest of people you'll ever encounter. Some adults never grow beyond those narrow confines and it manifests itself in hard-right or hard-left ideals just waiting to be cherry picked by those who do have the intelligence to round them up, give them a flag and set them to do their bidding.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The UAF arent exactly popular in many left wing circles, seen as too violent. Hope not Hate is a better example of a left wing anti-fascism group.

Economically right wing. Not idea what your social _iews are so i couldnt tell but most libertarian social _iews ie free speech, limited surveillance culture, personal liberties sit quite nicely with some left wing and some right wing groups. But yes the labels are misleading as they depend on the type of subject under discussion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" The central tenets of the "leftie" groups i belong to are freedom of speech and tolerance & equality of all people.

Just how 'left' would you be prepared to go to uphold and protect those tenets?

Depends on your meaning of equality, its more to do with treating people as equal human beings regardless of race, creed, gender etc etc rather than giving everyone equal wealth (no i dont go in for the far left communist groups). Its more about fairness of pay and opportunity these days.

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

Likewise you don't travel half way across the world, ask people to come and help the motherland, only to be treated like shit when you arrive.

Personally, I follow the example as set by my parents, but I understand where those that don't are coming from.

When you asked them that question did you include the word 'all' between the words 'let' and 'white'?"

I was 10 years old, it seemed to me they LET ALL the WHITE people treat them with disrespect.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Likewise you don't travel half way across the world, ask people to come and help the motherland, only to be treated like shit when you arrive.

Personally, I follow the example as set by my parents, but I understand where those that don't are coming from.

When you asked them that question did you include the word 'all' between the words 'let' and 'white'?

I was 10 years old, it seemed to me they LET ALL the WHITE people treat them with disrespect.

Do you mind if I ask an honest question?

How long did that assumption remain with you?

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

I was 10 years old, it seemed to me they LET ALL the WHITE people treat them with disrespect.

Do you mind if I ask an honest question?

How long did that assumption remain with you?"

I'd love to know the answer to that as well... because I think there is a distinct difference in the way that 1st generation and in effect 2nd generation black people here have dealt with it....

in that because 2nd generation people were born here, and in effect knew no different... they fought back as if to say "we belong here as much as you do!"...

as most people know my situation is slightly different, but I absolutely empathise with what the 1st generation did and how they coped with it.. and how the 2nd generation have fought back so to speak...

one thing i will point out... I support the soldiers in what they have to do, and its a bloody hard job, it doesn't mean I have to support the people who sent in the soldiers to do a job... and I think "that" is what people mistake....

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

[Removed by poster at 07/06/12 10:19:53]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

sorry OP it all just sounds to me as double political correctness,which in many peoples opinion is the reason why they hate much of Britain's policies(the indigenous ppl) - to me the idea that u cant say something about a country, in a derogatory sense would lead to equal amountss of hatred etc.

I'd actually prefer ppl to be free to speak out or for their 'cause'- as we all know, its when things go underground that they become ever so dangerous.Enforcing such a poorly thought out law would surely do this.

What of those who do the same in other countries OP, do u agree that I shouldnt shout out that I hate the communist/fascistic ideals of a country, the way women are treated in a country, the list goes on...and on...and on.

*personally I'm tired of people claiming certain parts of the earth as theirs, it belongs to fucking nobody..regardless of the society culture religions that claim it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"What of those who do the same in other countries OP, do u agree that I shouldnt shout out that I hate the communist/fascistic ideals of a country, the way women are treated in a country, the list goes on...and on...and on."

Personally, I wouldn't visit a country that had a way of life I so fundamentally disagreed with. I have no intention of ever visiting the Middle East, the Indian sub-continent doesn't interest me either and I'd rather poke my eyes out with a rusty fork than ever visit parts of Eastern Europe.

*personally I'm tired of people claiming certain parts of the earth as theirs, it belongs to fucking nobody..regardless of the society culture religions that claim it."

That's a Utopian philosophy and yes, to a degree the Earth owns us, but geographically, economically, politically and in pretty much every other way we 'own' the land we occupy for the short time we're here - and we'll fight to keep it. Any displaced tribe/peoples or person will tell you how important his or her piece of Earth was/is.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well, my parents came over here in the 50s from the Caribbean expecting a warm and friendly greeting as had been sold to them before they came to ‘the motherland’

The day after they arrived they went straight to the labour exchange and started work. Before mum became a nurse, she was a conductress and dealt with terrible abuse. My dad was often chased and attacked because of the colour of his skin.

However they kept their pride and their dignity, stayed in this country and worked hard and bought their own house five years after arriving here. They remain to this day very respectful with a quiet dignity and have instilled a sense of pride and dignity in myself and my 6 siblings and encouraged us to mix with people of all colours. They are not bitter and love this country, each one of their children (myself included) are very educated and each one of us work and have never been in any trouble with the law.

My parents were never really in a position to fight back as they continued to build a country that needed their work force, knowing that one day their children would reap the benefits, and we do, - every day. I now live my life with dignity and respect for this country and fellow human beings as my parents do, but woe betide anybody who would choose to disrespect me or my loved ones, physically or verbally.

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"Well, my parents came over here in the 50s from the Caribbean expecting a warm and friendly greeting as had been sold to them before they came to ‘the motherland’

Your family seems similar to mine along with shared experiences.

I don't think people realise being invited and abused physically and verbally is equally offensive than coming here of your own free will and abusing your host country.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

"Well, my parents came over here in the 50s from the Caribbean expecting a warm and friendly greeting as had been sold to them before they came to ‘the motherland’

fantastic post

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When you asked them that question did you include the word 'all' between the words 'let' and 'white'?

I was 10 years old, it seemed to me they LET ALL the WHITE people treat them with disrespect.

Do you mind if I ask an honest question?

How long did that assumption remain with you?"

I can't speak for Miss Tress, but speaking for myself 'that assumption' remains with you until you experience people treating you and your family with respect.

Wishy you seem to struggle to empathise with a situation where an immigrant and their family was invited to this country and came with hope of working to better themselves and to integrate in their new home to be faced with a society that accepted racism and discrimination as the NORM. Try to think for just one moment where your head would be as a child who was trying to make sense of it.

Thankfully we've come a long way.

Try to empathise Wishy, it will help you in your knowledge and understanding.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

*personally I'm tired of people claiming certain parts of the earth as theirs, it belongs to fucking nobody..regardless of the society culture religions that claim it.

yes wishy, the keyword is 'personally'...ur thoughts while valid as opinions are true...however in practice would never work...ever.

yes I have read back ur rather biologist _iewpoint on 'fighting' for ur way of being etc etc.Perhaps its better to get onto some other site and do something about(in action) it IF it reaaaalllly does mean that much to u.

I'd rather not be labelled as anything thanks from my _iewpoints.

All I think is there is no need for false patriotism and in fact, the country ie Britain, lost its proud empire status(of industry/innovation) a long time ago and its nothing to do with foreigners coming into it,its backhanded trades,loans,control and greed that's done it.

Apathy is the greatest enemy of Britain...and that comes from ourselves and has done for good while, not some odd poisonous words from foreign nationals.

My main point IS, why the hell would we want OUR country to act like a 3rd world dictatorship country?- and again, I'd rather be able to see my 'enemy' and their actions than be blinded by thinking everything's alright, cos their quiet..

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

Likewise you don't travel half way across the world, ask people to come and help the motherland, only to be treated like shit when you arrive.

Personally, I follow the example as set by my parents, but I understand where those that don't are coming from.

When you asked them that question did you include the word 'all' between the words 'let' and 'white'?

I was 10 years old, it seemed to me they LET ALL the WHITE people treat them with disrespect.

Do you mind if I ask an honest question?

How long did that assumption remain with you?"

Not long. I was still 10 when we had new neighbours, an older couple than my parents without kids. They knocked on the door to introduce themselves and bought a tin of sweets for us. They also had a holiday caravan which they invited us down to. My dad also had a work colleague that invited us to tea with him and his mum.

He had flowers for my mum and a box of Milk Tray for my sisters and I. I realised that not all white people are nasty almost immediately after I thought they were.

I don't feel like a "guest", this is where I was born, my children have never heard of glass ceilings and have grown up knowing and believing they can do anything...and they can.

My OH is white and my grand babies will be mixed race...think I got over the "all".

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

When you asked them that question did you include the word 'all' between the words 'let' and 'white'?

I was 10 years old, it seemed to me they LET ALL the WHITE people treat them with disrespect.

Do you mind if I ask an honest question?

How long did that assumption remain with you?

I can't speak for Miss Tress, but speaking for myself 'that assumption' remains with you until you experience people treating you and your family with respect.

Thankfully we've come a long way.

Try to empathise Wishy, it will help you in your knowledge and understanding. "

My sentiments exactly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well, my parents came over here in the 50s from the Caribbean expecting a warm and friendly greeting as had been sold to them before they came to ‘the motherland’

fantastic post"

Yes, great post. If I'd seen it prior to writing mine it would have saved me the time.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"Well, my parents came over here in the 50s from the Caribbean expecting a warm and friendly greeting as had been sold to them before they came to ‘the motherland’

"
My sentiments entirely

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you are a libertarian then you are right wing. If you are an egalitarian you are left wing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well, my parents came over here in the 50s from the Caribbean expecting a warm and friendly greeting as had been sold to them before they came to ‘the motherland’

I think this post shows common sense decency and a willingness to work and self improve. You should be proud of your parents and thier work ethic.

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By *leasureDomeMan
over a year ago

all over the place

"It shouldn't be a crime Wishy.

The state would use it against anyone with ideas that got in their way.

bingo... and you'll tend to find the countries that do have this type of law tend to be the ones that don't have a good track record of democracy as they tend to use it to stifle free speech...

What an interesting thread,I understand your sentiments but to some extent surely the "keep your friends close and enemies closer" a typical British way of doing business applies here.

I am sure uncompromising anti British rhetoric does not go un-noticed and is a good source of who to watch etc.

Of course no country should be above criticism by indigenous residents and people from overseas,to do so would stifle free speech and also assumes we should know nothing about when the UK screws up or is plain wrong ,remember the land we live in has an illustrious history but a also a set of less favorable actions which should be open to criticism,to be frank we have raped and pillaged our way around the world for centuries, eg:we invented concentration camps and we starved 20,000 boer children under 16 to death in them.

Without the right to critique,Ghandi (A national Hero in his day over here) would of lost his right to challenge "The Empire" of the Day with nothing but a loin cloth and a handful of salt and then to free 2 nations.

Critical observations are healthy,gives us chance to reflect on both what we are and where we are going,take it all on-board or reject it.

Without it we are no better than China ,North Korea,Zimbabwe or Tibet,it would be hard to criticise these nations\regimes if we too were not prepared to listen to our failings as perceived by others.

My one exception would be to the armed services ,desecration of memory or name

of people who have lost there lives in the service of the nation,would be off limits to everyone,with the penalties severe.

Great subject to kick around....

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I'm not talking about an Orwellian society where every word uttered is monitored, dissected, and then agents dispatched to shoot the orator in the brain if he casually mentions he likes fish and chips but fish and chips are banned because they're unhealthy for you.

I'm talking about someone who's allegiance lies with another country, who comes to the UK and spews off about how all Brits are wankers, tossers, cunts etc etc.

Yes he's free to say what he wants, but if he clearly doesn't like us or our country then he should be kicked out. Nothing will ever convince me of a better way to treat such people, not free speech, the right to move around the globe blah blah blah - if someone abuses our hospitality - out ya fookin go chum.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I can't speak for Miss Tress, but speaking for myself 'that assumption' remains with you until you experience people treating you and your family with respect.

Thankfully we've come a long way.

Try to empathise Wishy, it will help you in your knowledge and understanding. "

I asked an honest question and got an honest answer from her. She was 10 years old she said.

I prefer to use logic than empathy to understand the past and how logic and reason has allowed us to evolve and lead us to where humanity is today, but I don't make comparisons between then and now as people lived and thought very differently.

For people of my grandparent's era, it was very hard for them to see their neighbourhood taken over by swarthes of immigrants, even though Britain needed them here to rebuild after the devastation of WW2 and the ensuing decline of the Empire.

I'm sure those immigration officials in the West Indies meant what they said when they invited people to relocate here but they probably had no idea of the resentment local people would feel about losing their local communities to immigrants. I spent the first five years of my life in Hammersmith and just about remember what it used to be like, but today it is unrecognisable from when we lived there. To those born there today they only know the Hammersmith they are living in and to them it's home - but they would feel very anxious if it was suddenly overun by a fresh wave of immigrants from somewhere else. It is human nature to gravitate to those of your own kind which is why we see whole communities of Jews in the UK, or Polish immigrants, or West Indians. Every major town has a China Town in it somewhere.

It doesn't make me less empathetic to the abuse suffered by immigrants who came here, but some empathy towards those who lost their communities to them might go a long way to understanding why we have cultural divisions in our inner cities today.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Try to empathise Wishy, it will help you in your knowledge and understanding. "

Condescension doesn't help anybody achieve anything.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

getting back to the original point in the tread.

regardless of whether its homegrownbornandraised,beenhereseveralgenerations,beeninbredonanislandfromthestartoftime...etc

if I want to call the monarchy,the goverment cunts...so be it

if I want to make threats and incite others to take actions, then yes I'm committing a crime

this 'proposal' that u've set forward can only work both ways with people of either sides of whatever their perceived notion of nationality is. if a far right extremist said this country is fulla cunts,and the cunts that run it should be shot...is that inciting?- or giving a opinion?- if it is a crime thats just been committed, we'll see a huge rise in debt crime imprisonment wont we.More money to spend on stupid court cases.

I've no issues with my past, from a racial cultural standpoint, I was raised in scotland and in an army life...but I'd hardly call sitting down to watch corrie an eastenders as something cultural...the world is a bit too connected with elsewhere for us to be truly british.Its never coming back.

I suggest people move on and live in any environment that promotes diversity and harmony..the rest to me is pretty trivial, call me cold or uncaring...but I have no feelings towards my foreign side I dont need to live remembering what 'my' forefathers went thru back in the day..I'm a here and now type.

now I wonder...what indeed it would mean if scotland gains independence and the same type of thing happens regarding this post...deported to scotland haha

its a shame some people can show there passion only through aggressive means, if thats an uptopian _iewpoint...I'm a fucking proud cunt of that!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Try reposting with some spaces in your text. Half of what you said is missing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Try reposting with some spaces in your text. Half of what you said is missing."

Condescension doesn't help anybody achieve anything.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Try reposting with some spaces in your text. Half of what you said is missing.

Condescension doesn't help anybody achieve anything."

I'm telling you that with that long first line in your post without spaces your whole post has the last few words of each line missing. On my screen it does anyway.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Try reposting with some spaces in your text. Half of what you said is missing.

Condescension doesn't help anybody achieve anything.

I'm telling you that with that long first line in your post without spaces your whole post has the last few words of each line missing. On my screen it does anyway."

lol, get off the netbook or mobie n use a decent monitor resolution

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Try reposting with some spaces in your text. Half of what you said is missing.

Condescension doesn't help anybody achieve anything.

I'm telling you that with that long first line in your post without spaces your whole post has the last few words of each line missing. On my screen it does anyway.

lol, get off the netbook or mobie n use a decent monitor resolution"

1600x900px on an Acer Aspire laptop.

The forum display goes skewiff if someone posts a thread with the title too long and with no spaces in it too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Try reposting with some spaces in your text. Half of what you said is missing.

Condescension doesn't help anybody achieve anything.

I'm telling you that with that long first line in your post without spaces your whole post has the last few words of each line missing. On my screen it does anyway.

lol, get off the netbook or mobie n use a decent monitor resolution

1600x900px on an Acer Aspire laptop.

The forum display goes skewiff if someone posts a thread with the title too long and with no spaces in it too.

1366x768 and I can see my post clear...och well lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

op = nick griffin

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So my question is this:

Should it be a crime to make abusive statements about the country in which you *choose* to live, regardless of whether that is your country of origin or not?

No.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"op = nick griffin"

I dont think so

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

if people come to live here ,they should abide by the laws of the land ,we are far to tolerant. if we went to another country we would have to obey there laws

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you are a libertarian then you are right wing. If you are an egalitarian you are left wing."

I identify more with the right but at the same time libertarians don't believe in conservative social values. i.e. anti-abortion and anti-drugs.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Try to empathise Wishy, it will help you in your knowledge and understanding.

Condescension doesn't help anybody achieve anything."

I'm not being condescending, I'm serious in my suggestion. Some of the comments you have made in this thread suggest a lack of empathy in my opinion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"today on the day the D-Day landings begun to protect our freedom these people who express the _iew of hating the nation they live in is their right.

better to have that right of opinion than to have heavy handed mobs smashing your door down and carting you off in the middle of the night because you dont agree with them.

so today of all days.

think about those who braved them beaches, battled against the odds and payed the ultimate price.

so you,me and the people can express our _iews.

Ah yes the D Day landings. This would be the invasion of Normandy that was primarily carried out by American troops and where the British involvement was so insignificant that it was referred to in documents only three times (or was it two?) I take it?

And what is all this about 'we'? I am an Englishman who can trace his family back hundreds of years, but if I had to choose between spending an evening with a group of ignorant, racist, sexist Sun reading English people or a group of well educated broad minded Germans or Indians the choice would be easy.

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"if people come to live here ,they should abide by the laws of the land ,we are far to tolerant. if we went to another country we would have to obey there laws "

Of course there's no British person causing mayhem, or in a foreign prison anywhere in the world because we're all law abiding citizens.

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"if people come to live here ,they should abide by the laws of the land ,we are far to tolerant. if we went to another country we would have to obey there laws "

It's not against the law to be grumpy about where you live.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you are a libertarian then you are right wing. If you are an egalitarian you are left wing.

I identify more with the right but at the same time libertarians don't believe in conservative social values. i.e. anti-abortion and anti-drugs.

Neo-liberals-the worst of them all. The ones of whom Tony Benn said "all inequalities are fashionable to them except the most important one which is economic inequality".

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

If you are a libertarian then you are right wing. If you are an egalitarian you are left wing.

I identify more with the right but at the same time libertarians don't believe in conservative social values. i.e. anti-abortion and anti-drugs.

Neo-liberals-the worst of them all. The ones of whom Tony Benn said "all inequalities are fashionable to them except the most important one which is economic inequality".

Negative Income tax seems a pretty good idea. That's a neoliberal mainstay isn't it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its the fuckUovereasilyanarians I'm against...I trust the green party but I know they just wanna sell me solar panel roofing and take out the great GM ingredients I love

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Ah yes the D Day landings. This would be the invasion of Normandy that was primarily carried out by American troops and where the British involvement was so insignificant that it was referred to in documents only three times (or was it two?) I take it?

Allied troops landed in Normandy: 156,115

* American (Omaha & Utah beaches + airborne): 73,000

* British (Gold & Sword beaches + airborne): 61,715

* Canadian (Juno Beach): 21,400

Personnel in Operation Neptune: 195,700

* American: 52,889

* British: 112,824

* Other allied: 4988

** GOLD BEACH - Code name for beach from Longues-sur-Mer to La Riviere, 5 miles long and includes Arromanches where the Mulberry Harbour was established. British 2nd Army, 30th Corps landed here and by nightfall, 25,000 troops had landed and pushed the Germans six miles inland. There were just 400 British casualties.

** SWORD BEACH - Code name for beach stretching 5 miles from Saint-Aubin-sur-Mer to Ouistreham at the mouth of the River Orne. British 2nd Army, 1st Corps with French & British commandos. It was nine miles north of the city of Caen – a major route centre of Northern France. The British landed 29,000 men and suffered just 630 casualties.

By the end of 11th June 1944 (D + 5), 326,547 troops, 54,186 vehicles and 104,428 tons of supplies had been landed on the beaches of northern France.

All the way from America via UPS huh?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you are a libertarian then you are right wing. If you are an egalitarian you are left wing.

I identify more with the right but at the same time libertarians don't believe in conservative social values. i.e. anti-abortion and anti-drugs.

Neo-liberals-the worst of them all. The ones of whom Tony Benn said "all inequalities are fashionable to them except the most important one which is economic inequality".

Negative Income tax seems a pretty good idea. That's a neoliberal mainstay isn't it?"

negative income tax- one of the few times I have disagreed with Mr Friedman

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"if people come to live here ,they should abide by the laws of the land ,we are far to tolerant. if we went to another country we would have to obey there laws "

Well of course

That's not what the thread is about though

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

If you are a libertarian then you are right wing. If you are an egalitarian you are left wing.

I identify more with the right but at the same time libertarians don't believe in conservative social values. i.e. anti-abortion and anti-drugs.

Neo-liberals-the worst of them all. The ones of whom Tony Benn said "all inequalities are fashionable to them except the most important one which is economic inequality".

Negative Income tax seems a pretty good idea. That's a neoliberal mainstay isn't it?

negative income tax- one of the few times I have disagreed with Mr Friedman"

Would you mind saying why? I'm interested to know your _iews on it but let's start another thread as this one is discussing a different matter entirely.

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By *am sampsonMan
over a year ago

cwmbran

if dissing this country was illegal many of our current government would be in jail for continually calling our nation "broken Britain" leading upto the last election

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By *ushroom7Man
over a year ago

Bradford

If you are a libertarian then you are right wing. If you are an egalitarian you are left wing.

I identify more with the right but at the same time libertarians don't believe in conservative social values. i.e. anti-abortion and anti-drugs.

Neo-liberals-the worst of them all. The ones of whom Tony Benn said "all inequalities are fashionable to them except the most important one which is economic inequality".

Negative Income tax seems a pretty good idea. That's a neoliberal mainstay isn't it?

negative income tax- one of the few times I have disagreed with Mr Friedman"

Is Mister Friedman aware of this?

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