FabSwingers.com forum: Swing low sweet chariot

By *abio OP Man
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

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By *ornLordMan
over a year ago

Wiltshire and London

I’m not sure why they should sing it in the first place.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”......."

Do you mean problematic if they try to ban the singing of it or problematic if it continues?

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By *RSTCouple
over a year ago

S. Northants

I can't see it happening, how do you stop thousands of people singing a song spontaneously? They tried the same with Delilah at the Millennium Stadium, didn't work. These songs are now engrained in the atmosphere of the sport, despite what they unfortunately represent.

As a Welsh man, I have always been baffled why they sing Swing Low anyway!

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By *abio OP Man
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

Do you mean problematic if they try to ban the singing of it or problematic if it continues? "

Interesting point..... for the sake of conversation let’s say both....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I can't see it happening, how do you stop thousands of people singing a song spontaneously? They tried the same with Delilah at the Millennium Stadium, didn't work. These songs are now engrained in the atmosphere of the sport, despite what they unfortunately represent.

As a Welsh man, I have always been baffled why they sing Swing Low anyway! "

It's supposedly linked to Martin "Chariots" Offiah ... the nickname given to him at the time (referencing his speed over the ground) ....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was reading the article on the BBC website this morning.

Obviously I'll be accused of bias being a Welshman, but it's a pants song and theres loads more which could be relevant to England and sung with pride.

The English RFU are addressing it...I think itll be a struggle to remove it initially?

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By *abio OP Man
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

As a Welsh man, I have always been baffled why they sing Swing Low anyway! "

I must be think.... what’s wrong with Delilah

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Worlds gone mad.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

Do you mean problematic if they try to ban the singing of it or problematic if it continues?

Interesting point..... for the sake of conversation let’s say both....

Aah, you bugger. That's twice the work

Give me a minute to type it

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By *abio OP Man
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

As a Welsh man, I have always been baffled why they sing Swing Low anyway!

It's supposedly linked to Martin "Chariots" Offiah ... the nickname given to him at the time (referencing his speed over the ground) ...."

But he was shit in union which is why he went north... but league fans don’t sing it so I am not buying that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As a Welsh man, I have always been baffled why they sing Swing Low anyway!

I must be think.... what’s wrong with Delilah "

There was a reference to domestic violence "I felt the knife in my hand".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Worlds gone mad. "

It's always been mad. We used to drown women for being witches to see if they would live?

Maybe the world is waking up? It always feels horrible when you first wake.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As a Welsh man, I have always been baffled why they sing Swing Low anyway!

It's supposedly linked to Martin "Chariots" Offiah ... the nickname given to him at the time (referencing his speed over the ground) ....

But he was shit in union which is why he went north... but league fans don’t sing it so I am not buying that"

Does sound far fetched I'll admit but it's a reason claimed.

If they try to ban it how do you approach say a black rugby fan that has followed the England team for 20 years or so, has always belted out Swing Low from the stands and wishes to continue to do so because he personally doesn't associate it with anything other than the Rugby. Do they remove him from the ground, go as far as to arrest him?

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By *RSTCouple
over a year ago

S. Northants

As a Welsh man, I have always been baffled why they sing Swing Low anyway!

I must be think.... what’s wrong with Delilah "

They said it glorified adultery and domestic violence.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Everyone can't agree with everything

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

As a Welsh man, I have always been baffled why they sing Swing Low anyway!

It's supposedly linked to Martin "Chariots" Offiah ... the nickname given to him at the time (referencing his speed over the ground) ....

But he was shit in union which is why he went north... but league fans don’t sing it so I am not buying that"

We used to sing it in club rugby in the late 70s...so the chariots link is certainly not the only origin. Had no idea of any racial overtones and nor did the black guys in my team. If you've never seen the hand actions that go with it.. "coming 4 to carry"... Well you can guess how they went.

As for it being almost "the" song for England Rugby I personally hate it... Its garbage..

Lots of rugby songs have "adult/childish/stupid" lyrics which some could find offensive.. Whilst nobody really wants to offend anyone... I'm not sure how great an atmosphere you'd get by cleansing it of all the potentially offensive singing... Or if you'd really want to.

Ban it for being a crap song that sounds awful by all means though.

I mean RSA have a great and relatively new "anthem" from 1999 that sounds amazing and is very unifying.

So it is possible. It was also sung at England football matches in the 80s... Heard it on the "rewind football" stuff they've been showing unless they dubbed it over the top for atmosphere as they tend to do now.

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”......."

My concern is real issues like institutional racism, inequality etc is being overtaken by token gestures that black people don't care about.

What song is sung on the terraces or the removal of a pigeon shit covered statue commemorating some slave owner I've never heard of is not in the top 100 of things that concern me.

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By *ackformore100Man
over a year ago

Tin town

As a Welsh man, I have always been baffled why they sing Swing Low anyway!

It's supposedly linked to Martin "Chariots" Offiah ... the nickname given to him at the time (referencing his speed over the ground) ....

But he was shit in union which is why he went north... but league fans don’t sing it so I am not buying that

Does sound far fetched I'll admit but it's a reason claimed.

Has similarities with trying to ban the yid word at spurs, and yet many spurs fans who are Jewish still insist on using it... Or the N word which is acceptable for black folks to use but absolutely not for white folks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Let's just erase history full stop

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

As a Welsh man, I have always been baffled why they sing Swing Low anyway!

It's supposedly linked to Martin "Chariots" Offiah ... the nickname given to him at the time (referencing his speed over the ground) ....

But he was shit in union which is why he went north... but league fans don’t sing it so I am not buying that

Does sound far fetched I'll admit but it's a reason claimed.

Believe it or not, not all black people like, let alone use the n word.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

Do you mean problematic if they try to ban the singing of it or problematic if it continues?

Interesting point..... for the sake of conversation let’s say both....

If the singing of Swing Low was somehow banned do the black players within the England team then become the target of abuse for being deemed to be a cause of the need to ban it?

Solve one problem but create a whole other issue within the game ?

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By *abio OP Man
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

bumping back up......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”......."
I think is totally wrong to try and ban the English rugby fans from singing that I think it's all got a bit silly now racism is wrong now question there but we shouldn't wipe out heritage because of it might as well pull the pyramids of Egypt down they where built by slaves..

I've been to Twickenham many times and stood side by side with a black friend who sang that sound loud and proud. All lives matter

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

My concern is real issues like institutional racism, inequality etc is being overtaken by token gestures that black people don't care about.

What song is sung on the terraces or the removal of a pigeon shit covered statue commemorating some slave owner I've never heard of is not in the top 100 of things that concern me."

It does smack of token gestures...

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

My concern is real issues like institutional racism, inequality etc is being overtaken by token gestures that black people don't care about.

What song is sung on the terraces or the removal of a pigeon shit covered statue commemorating some slave owner I've never heard of is not in the top 100 of things that concern me.

It does smack of token gestures..."

It does. There's been a lot of it around, and it feels like, oh we posted on social media, let's get back to normal.

It may be that we need to interrogate problematic media, but not at the expense of the actual problems.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Nah, it was a song we used to sing after a match in the bar. After we’d stripped, poured beer over our heads, while bawling ‘Singing in the Rain’. It was only adopted because of the rude associated actions

Times have moved on and so should we

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Nah, it was a song we used to sing after a match in the bar. After we’d stripped, poured beer over our heads, while bawling ‘Singing in the Rain’. It was only adopted because of the rude associated actions

Times have moved on and so should we

I don't understand the need to hang on to things from the past that we've evolved past.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

Do you mean problematic if they try to ban the singing of it or problematic if it continues?

Interesting point..... for the sake of conversation let’s say both....

If the singing of Swing Low was somehow banned do the black players within the England team then become the target of abuse for being deemed to be a cause of the need to ban it?

Solve one problem but create a whole other issue within the game ?"

It doesn’t need to be banned. It is an important part of black history and was a favourite of Martin Luther King. It appears that it has been used at England’s games during the 80’s and Martin Offiah, in particular said it evokes deep emotion probably because of its history. He is glad it is being reviewed but doesn’t want to see it banned, but instead used with understanding and a positive spin. Martin was nicknamed ‘Chariots’ Offiah.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

Do you mean problematic if they try to ban the singing of it or problematic if it continues?

Interesting point..... for the sake of conversation let’s say both....

If the singing of Swing Low was somehow banned do the black players within the England team then become the target of abuse for being deemed to be a cause of the need to ban it?

Solve one problem but create a whole other issue within the game ?

There are much more important aspects within the sport to review.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just ban sport. Football in particular there is loads of documented video evidence of racism openly displayed at such events.

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

My own opinion is that there are more pressing concerns right now than a bunch of pissed up rugby fan's choice of terrace anthem. I think it's more important to address the issues of societal racism, stereotyping and black on black violence first.

However, I do think it's useful for people to be made aware of and understand the history and etymology of Sweet Chariot.

But I don't think that attempting to ban the singing outright is likely to have any success and could prove to be counterproductive. Micromanaging human behaviours is likely to turn a large number of people against a cause, for example the Topple The Racists campaign resulted in a backlash against BLM and also Extinction Rebellion caused a lot of negative feeling towards their campaign through the disruption their protests caused.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It was played at both of my parents (non religious) funerals... My Dad played rugby until he died... It will always be sung at our club

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By *uyfrombristolMan
over a year ago

Bristol

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

My concern is real issues like institutional racism, inequality etc is being overtaken by token gestures that black people don't care about.

What song is sung on the terraces or the removal of a pigeon shit covered statue commemorating some slave owner I've never heard of is not in the top 100 of things that concern me."

Absolutely this.

The last few weeks have seen a bunch of tokenism from major institutions and companies keen to be seen doing the 'right thing', along with acts of vandalism being excused etc, none of which does anything to combat the underlying issues. Said companies had years (and numerous shootings) to change their branding, but only now do so in the age of Twitter outrage.

As for the song, wasn't it written by a native American, not an African slave (I swear I read that yesterday). Either way, good luck policing that in a seventy thousand strong stadium, just like they policed people tearing down monuments.

I'm interested to hear what the OP's view is?

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I think the removal of the statue has led to some discussion of how we understand our history, and I hope that that might lead to more inclusive ways of telling stories about ourselves and our past.

There has been a lot of tokenism, but it's also, I hope, stirred greater awareness and a need to do better.

I don't know where the line is. Even I rolled my eyes when I opened a computer game to find an announcement that they care about BLM - yes yes very good have a corporate cookie. But some little things do matter. Microaggressions add up.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

My concern is real issues like institutional racism, inequality etc is being overtaken by token gestures that black people don't care about.

What song is sung on the terraces or the removal of a pigeon shit covered statue commemorating some slave owner I've never heard of is not in the top 100 of things that concern me."

I completely agree. I have far more important things to give a crap about, and to be honest - I think this sort of thing reflects badly on black people. I am just not that petty to get offended by an inoffensive song, and I think it widens divisions that are already too wide.

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

My concern is real issues like institutional racism, inequality etc is being overtaken by token gestures that black people don't care about.

What song is sung on the terraces or the removal of a pigeon shit covered statue commemorating some slave owner I've never heard of is not in the top 100 of things that concern me.

This makes me weep with frustration and highlights what I've written on several of these types of threads.

God save us from "well meaning white people!" WHITE people get offended on our behalf and over analyse everything they MAY have done/said and over compensate (coffee without milk...can't say black that's offensive

). Other white people conveniently overlook the person saying that is white and attributes it to "pc gone mad negroes with attitude".

We've not said Jack, we have bigger fish to fry than being offended by baa baa black sheep et al!

My sister, daughter and I have white partners, I have no axe to grind but it's getting harder to deal with white people and that should be a worry. If someone like me (old, comfortably off, educated, no truly negative interaction with white people) is getting frustrated with the negativity and open hostility towards black people can you imagine the temperament amongst the young disenfranchised?

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Gonna take this one out of the rugby thread....

Do you think that England fans should still be singing this?

I can see it would be all sorts of “problematic”.......

My concern is real issues like institutional racism, inequality etc is being overtaken by token gestures that black people don't care about.

What song is sung on the terraces or the removal of a pigeon shit covered statue commemorating some slave owner I've never heard of is not in the top 100 of things that concern me."

It's a very good point

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Just ban sport. Football in particular there is loads of documented video evidence of racism openly displayed at such events."

Like?

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By *eeBee67Man
over a year ago

Masked and Distant

If the sing was being sung to glorify or celebrate slavery, then yes ban it.

But I dont think it is sung for that reason.

I feel the same over statues, if they are there to glorify it celebrate the subjugation of others then get rid. But I honestly dont think there are any erected for that reason.

Education and learning from the mistakes of the past is key.

Someone will always be offended by something, we cant get rid of everything.

Should Jerusalem be sung? Isn't it about the crusades?

Sorry just lots of random thoughts.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Never sung it myself.

For no other reason than it’s a shit song and I find it quite embarrassing.

The actual origin of the song as I’ve always been led to believe is that it was a spiritual song sung by African Americans and as has been referenced above was only adopted by rugby fans as a tribute to Martin offiah.

If any song in rugby is more inappropriate than the Scottish celebration of war with England that still inspires tension to this day then flower of Scotland would be it.

Having said that I’ve been heard belting it out with ma scotch pals many a time as it’s a great anthem.

While we’re at it why should the all blacks and islanders be allowed to perform the haka if we’re gonna start being so sensitive over origin of tradition in the game.

As a declaration that of war it’s hardly appropriate in this day in age.

The game and it’s enjoyment would be lessened by outlawing any of the examples and I for one feel like it’s just another English witch hunt regardless of how much I hate the song and the embarrassing prawn sandwich brigade that tend to sing it whilst performing the ridiculous actions that go with it.

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