FabSwingers.com forum: Erase our history

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

What’s going on suddenly with pulling down statues etc should we have to do what a minority demand or should we have the backbone to say no it’s our history good and bad, having these statues are here as a reminder and to learn from are they not?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

Alright, lets have a statue of Jimmy Saville outside the BBC HQ to learn from then.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Good point about museums x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Most of the statues put up to commemorate the deeds (good or bad) of those who made pots of money off the backs of others were usually funded by money bequeathed by them in order to perpetuate their memory...

As queenie says stick them in a museum then people can choose who or what they learn about...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Alright, lets have a statue of Jimmy Saville outside the BBC HQ to learn from then. "

To be fair, the BBC would probably endorse this...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Fucking rats killed a load of people and I see no statue of a rat

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Fucking rats killed a load of people and I see no statue of a rat"

Google it. Theres quite a few

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Alright, lets have a statue of Jimmy Saville outside the BBC HQ to learn from then.

To be fair, the BBC would probably endorse this... "

Sorry, that was maybe a bit flippant, I do have many concerns about the BBC, just checked my bias

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Fucking rats killed a load of people and I see no statue of a rat

Google it. Theres quite a few

Don’t tell me how to live my life young man

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By *bcums3Couple
over a year ago

lanarkshire

Not only are statues coming down but we are now removing tv programmes and films?...gone with the wind is a prefect example...first African American to win an Oscar??? Should be learning from history not trying to erase it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised"
Is there a connection between Slavery and Churchill ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalisedIs there a connection between Slavery and Churchill ?"

A statue of a slave owner was torn down and a Churchill one was as well (I think - I’ve been according the news for the last few days as it’s making me too emotional)

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

"Alright, lets have a statue of Jimmy Saville outside the BBC HQ to learn from then.

To be fair, the BBC would probably endorse this...

Sorry, that was maybe a bit flippant, I do have many concerns about the BBC, just checked my bias

I was kind of confused how to respond to that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How about we erase it properly and start burning books too?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Alright, lets have a statue of Jimmy Saville outside the BBC HQ to learn from then.

To be fair, the BBC would probably endorse this...

Sorry, that was maybe a bit flippant, I do have many concerns about the BBC, just checked my bias

I was kind of confused how to respond to that."

My fingers were faster than my brain

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

"Not only are statues coming down but we are now removing tv programmes and films?...gone with the wind is a prefect example...first African American to win an Oscar??? Should be learning from history not trying to erase it

Should we bring back golliwogs and the black and white minstrel show?

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By *othin 2 proveCouple
over a year ago

Blackpool

Don't forget this is now a minority run country.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How about we erase it properly and start burning books too? "
I agree that this could all be taken too far !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't forget this is now a minority run country.

xx"

Aren’t white people technically the minority?

God the word minority sucks

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By *ex HolesMan
over a year ago

Up North

How far does this go? Remember people the Pyramids were built by slaves so let’s adopt the same philosophy to those to .............

These monuments serve a purpose to demonstrate to our society how far we have come.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the big problem is where do you stop. Muhammad Ali was a big racist with his comments about interracical relationships and Elvis met his wife when she was 14 and he was 24. Should we be looking to delete anything bad from history or should these be there to learn from

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How about we erase it properly and start burning books too? I agree that this could all be taken too far !"

Yes, it could be, but where shall the line be drawn? (an actual serious question) and then, who should decide what gets erased anf what stays?

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"Don't forget this is now a minority run country.

xx"

It's always been a minority run country. The minority are the rich, connected and elite.

They now feel threatened by movements like BLM and haven't really now got a clue what to fucking do. If the BLM had not been given permission to go ahead, and perfectly justifiable to refuse permission in this pandemic, then there would have been civil disobedience like never seen in decades, perhaps centuries. I actually believe the government and MPs a d Police are shitting themselves .

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

Gone with the wind has been removed temporarily. It will be back but with a narrative explaining it's context. Which I think is the way forward, no sweeping under the carpet and education

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Churchill is on the hit list due to his vocal views and actions on India and not allowing their independence.

However, what is little known is that Ghandi's statue was placed a little higher and looking down on Churchill as a nod, or some might say two fingers up to that view and acknowledgement that it was wrong.

Unfortunately it's very difficult to rationalise at a time when passions, boredom, group think and emotions are running high.

It is definitely something that needs redress but surely now isn't the time to risk the lives of people today, to avenge the deeds of the past?

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By *othin 2 proveCouple
over a year ago

Blackpool

Gandi was as racist as they come but people don't like to mention this or totally ignore the fact! When will they bring his statue down? Never me thinks he will be forever held up a beacon of light and the negatives swept under the carpet.

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By *bcums3Couple
over a year ago

lanarkshire

Gone with the wind has been removed temporarily. It will be back but with a narrative explaining it's context. Which I think is the way forward, no sweeping under the carpet and education

Hopefully it does return and in that way, tend to agree if it does, and hopefully others will take that action rather than trying to take it all away

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

History is full of people who are less than perfect, being evil in some cases and using their religious beliefs to justify their actions among other dubious reasons, but what does it achieve erasing history ? Ask a Jew if we should forget the Nazi's ever existed ? Not sure that tearing statues and monuments down will lessen peoples hatred or intolerance.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Gone with the wind has been removed temporarily. It will be back but with a narrative explaining it's context. Which I think is the way forward, no sweeping under the carpet and education

Exactly this - a narrative to explain context is a great idea. It gives the opportunity to discuss views of today and past, the rights and wrongs and loads of factors that influence societal bias and keeps peeps alive to their own blind prejudices and bias.

Unfortunately blood is in the nostrels of some of those protesting and I don't think they are interested atm... shame

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By *bcums3Couple
over a year ago

lanarkshire

Gone with the wind has been removed temporarily. It will be back but with a narrative explaining it's context. Which I think is the way forward, no sweeping under the carpet and education

Unfortunately blood is in the nostrels of some of those protesting and I don't think they are interested atm... shame

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

The victor used to write the History. No longer it seems.

History is usually subjective and biased or reinterpreted by scholars trying to make a name for themselves.

Some of the rewriters dont like some of the uncomfortable truths and I wonder if they rewrite it accurately sometimes.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I just think almost every week you read about something else has been banned because someone has complained about it, my point is why do they then ban said thing rather than say no for example 100 people complain about the inbetweeners but 100,000 love it why is it took down ??

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"I just think almost every week you read about something else has been banned because someone has complained about it, my point is why do they then ban said thing rather than say no for example 100 people complain about the inbetweeners but 100,000 love it why is it took down ?? "

It's down? I loved that show

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By *iamondCougarWoman
over a year ago

Norfuck! / Lincolnshire

It needs to be addressed admittedly but the world has gone mad in doing so

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"Alright, lets have a statue of Jimmy Saville outside the BBC HQ to learn from then. "

I've been using this fair analogy to the ignorant for a while

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"How far does this go? Remember people the Pyramids were built by slaves so let’s adopt the same philosophy to those to .............

These monuments serve a purpose to demonstrate to our society how far we have come. "

They really arent.

As mentioned above stick them in a museum with a full history.

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By *uliaChrisCouple
over a year ago

westerham

Gone with the wind has been removed temporarily. It will be back but with a narrative explaining it's context. Which I think is the way forward, no sweeping under the carpet and education

Can’t see the need for any narrative explaining its content, I saw it in full for the first time only recently and it is clearly mind bogglingly racist. Anyone too daft to see that is not going to comprehend some tacked on narrative.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised"

I surprised you didn't learn about the slave trade and Churchill. They are both in the core curriculum for history under The Industrial Revolution and WW2 respectively.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Churchill was the only viable choice as a war time leader. I dread to think what the outcome would have been under Lord Halifax ! Sometimes the right people at the time are not the most popular or righteous.

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By *eavenscentitCouple
over a year ago

barnstaple

History is just that - His story, not the story of all human beings.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It needs to be addressed admittedly but the world has gone mad in doing so"

This is rather off topic, yet I have just seen the pic in your gallery regarding 2020 and let the adventure begin...

So far its been a little like nemesis at Alton Towers.

Constant twist and turns but no one is sure where they are coming from!

Just to clarify nemesis was an indoor rollercoaster completely in the dark!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is like the reign of terror after the French Revolution..... Eventually things will calm down and the world will get back to normal.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Where do people draw the line out of interest?

I am told that captain Morgan wasn’t a vet nice guy, think he had hundreds of slaves on his plantation

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

gurss we have to tear down the pyramids and the colliseum

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It needs to be addressed admittedly but the world has gone mad in doing so

This is rather off topic, yet I have just seen the pic in your gallery regarding 2020 and let the adventure begin...

So far its been a little like nemesis at Alton Towers.

Constant twist and turns but no one is sure where they are coming from!

Just to clarify nemesis was an indoor rollercoaster completely in the dark!"

Nemesis is not a dark ride and is still running at Alton Towers. Do you mean Black Hole?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Where do people draw the line out of interest?

I am told that captain Morgan wasn’t a vet nice guy, think he had hundreds of slaves on his plantation "

I've been on a few Plantation visits in the USA. All of them have been a good insight into that part of history.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is there a way to compromise?

Keep the statues but ensure that the history of the person/event is well explained on a board in front of it?

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By *hatYorkLadMan
over a year ago

York

I saw a poll on social media this week where people had voted Churchill as far worse than Adolf Hitler. I'm guessing they had googled Churchill looking for his failings and not bothered reading anything about Hitler.

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By *ny1localMan
over a year ago

READING

Personally I don't think any of the statues should be removed, let them stay in public view, not hidden away in a museum..a constant reminder to everyone that the evil of slavery existed and how they made some of the rich even richer.

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By *ich HardMan
over a year ago

Saffron Walden

Its getting bloody ridiculous..as someone mentioned earlier, where do we stop?.

..banning German cars? Banning books (the Bible)? Etc etc etc.

There will always be the (small, thank god) minority of racists, bigots etc etc..this will not change unfortunately, should/can we do more to eradicate them and there ideals?, yes absolutely..but you cannot change history...just learn from it...

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By *ud and BryanCouple
over a year ago

Boston, Lincolnshire

Fact is, you can't sanitize history. People need to learn to forgive, learn from the past and move on. That is the only way to end racism.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Churchill was the only viable choice as a war time leader. I dread to think what the outcome would have been under Lord Halifax ! Sometimes the right people at the time are not the most popular or righteous."

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By *ob Carpe DiemMan
over a year ago

Torquay

Perhaps Porsche should change their name, didn't Ferdinand collaborate with Nazis, I don't know where it ends to be honest.

Erasing history is not the answer but I don't pretend to know what is and I don't think anyone does.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Gandi was as racist as they come but people don't like to mention this or totally ignore the fact! When will they bring his statue down? Never me thinks he will be forever held up a beacon of light and the negatives swept under the carpet.

xx"

Was Gandhi a slave trader??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

History is in the past, we can't change it. Move on and be positive instead of bitter and vengeful.

You don't see the British attacking Scandinavians because of the actions of Vikings or most Europeans still holding a grudge against the Romans.

I don't think I'm racist as I don't care what colour, nationality or ethnicity you are. I judge everyone as being an arse hole until they give me reason to believe otherwise.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Damn Hugo Boss and all those Nazi uniforms he designed. I'm off to burn down the shop at Meadowhall.....after I've nabbed myself a suit or 2.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I like little Britain, it is a great show, can't believe they took it down, and I am trans. I really liked the dick emery show, he was hilarious, used to laugh my head off at Barbara and honky tonk, it was done in a nice way, not offensive.

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

Compromise often helps with controversial subjects. Maybe add a plaque to the statue, explaining why it was erected in the first place and reasons why this figure is now seen differently.

I love stories about redemption, maybe one or two of these guys did have a conscience or maybe not, but whilst they are still there, let’s use them as a teaching tool.

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By *uicy jonesMan
over a year ago

near a big hill in s/ shropshire NOT in

How can you change history ? Apart

From going back in time ?? No time Machines exist !!! As I'm aweee off ,,,

Only thing we can do is learn from it and move Forward in a more positive action !!!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I suppose there is a certain amount of allowable retribution. The Romans get regularly and soundly thrashed by the Barbarian hordes in the Six Nations rugby.

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised

I surprised you didn't learn about the slave trade and Churchill. They are both in the core curriculum for history under The Industrial Revolution and WW2 respectively. "

History on this country,or it was when I was at school,was quite selective.

Has it changed now?

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"History is in the past, we can't change it. Move on and be positive instead of bitter and vengeful.

You don't see the British attacking Scandinavians because of the actions of Vikings or most Europeans still holding a grudge against the Romans.

I don't think I'm racist as I don't care what colour, nationality or ethnicity you are. I judge everyone as being an arse hole until they give me reason to believe otherwise.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Huh.

History is us telling stories about and interpreting our past.

The removal of the statue has started many conversations about Colston, who he was, his legacy.

As a result of this action British history is being debated in the public sphere, people are finding things out.

The statue is going to go in a museum.

We all know much more.

This isn't the erasure of history. It's the discussion of it, the promotion of it.

It's an incredible wonderful thing to be celebrated, and I'm so here for it.

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By *tephanjMan
over a year ago

Kettering

These statues are our history why should we bend to what a minority want. They may have done some nasty deeds but this country wouldn't be what it is without them. So I say leave the statues alone

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised

I surprised you didn't learn about the slave trade and Churchill. They are both in the core curriculum for history under The Industrial Revolution and WW2 respectively.

History on this country,or it was when I was at school,was quite selective.

Has it changed now?"

Not sure but they can't cover everything Lionel. I think there is some sort of lobbying soon to make it compulsory to cover Black History and Slavery in schools. Its certainly topical and relevant although I would then be interested in what they don't teach. There are only so many hours in the curriculum..

I would cut off Drama..

I detested Drama. Pretend your a seed and grow into a tree..

Gets my goat

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised

I surprised you didn't learn about the slave trade and Churchill. They are both in the core curriculum for history under The Industrial Revolution and WW2 respectively. "

Nope. I would have love to have learned about WW2, it fascinated me. I learnt about WW1 though

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

History repeats itself no matter what. The people in this world who spread hate, fear and racism have always been here,the rich will always turn a blind eye to the poor, the racists will always have an agenda especially if our so called leaders of the so called free world are Trump esque.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"These statues are our history why should we bend to what a minority want. They may have done some nasty deeds but this country wouldn't be what it is without them. So I say leave the statues alone

History and jingoism are not synonyms.

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

"These statues are our history why should we bend to what a minority want. They may have done some nasty deeds but this country wouldn't be what it is without them. So I say leave the statues alone

You know that you and your opinions could now be In the minority. I have yet to see the protesters wanting to see the statues remain

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"These statues are our history why should we bend to what a minority want. They may have done some nasty deeds but this country wouldn't be what it is without them. So I say leave the statues alone

History and jingoism are not synonyms."

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised

I surprised you didn't learn about the slave trade and Churchill. They are both in the core curriculum for history under The Industrial Revolution and WW2 respectively.

History on this country,or it was when I was at school,was quite selective.

Has it changed now?

I would cut off Drama..

I detested Drama. Pretend your a seed and grow into a tree..

Gets my goat

I know but we tended to airbrush the more unsavoury aspects as I recall.

I loved history at school.

Not sure about making it compulsory to study black history?history is history.

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised

I surprised you didn't learn about the slave trade and Churchill. They are both in the core curriculum for history under The Industrial Revolution and WW2 respectively.

Nope. I would have love to have learned about WW2, it fascinated me. I learnt about WW1 though

It's dead interesting and ww2 wouldnt have happened without ww1.

Seems weird to have just 1 on the curriculum.

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Huh.

History is us telling stories about and interpreting our past.

The removal of the statue has started many conversations about Colston, who he was, his legacy.

As a result of this action British history is being debated in the public sphere, people are finding things out.

The statue is going to go in a museum.

We all know much more.

This isn't the erasure of history. It's the discussion of it, the promotion of it.

It's an incredible wonderful thing to be celebrated, and I'm so here for it."

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

There's a long standing idea that the bad parts of a community's legacy should be hidden from young people. Make American Thanksgiving a dinner party, the founding of Australia as a British colony a better life for the oppressed convicts, the triumphs of the British empire.

I think it's toxic. Every history has good and bad. How do we understand our place in the world, our relationship to others, how we do better in the future? Perspectives other than our own? Not just blind allegiance to a Disney version of what it means to come from a particular country?

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

I am sure I read it in the news somewhere... Maybe it already is compulsory..

Don't forget I make half of this shit up and talk bollocks like most of us on here..

But I am sure that the politicians will make it so, insist on more honours for minorities, promote more minorities into key positions and carrying on ruling by smoke and mirrors

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"There's a long standing idea that the bad parts of a community's legacy should be hidden from young people. Make American Thanksgiving a dinner party, the founding of Australia as a British colony a better life for the oppressed convicts, the triumphs of the British empire.

Don't mention Disney.. Racist apparently.. little did I know as a boy. I just loved the songs and charachters..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I say we should get rid of all statues no matter who they are including Mandela from Parliament square.

What’s good for one side of the argument is good for all

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Don't mention Disney.. Racist apparently.. little did I know as a boy. I just loved the songs and charachters.. "

Goodness. Trying to improve ourselves and what we teach children. How awful

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

That's the problem..only the good bits are taught.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

That's the problem..only the good bits are taught."

It leads to some serious divisions and an immature understanding of what it means to come from a certain place.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I say we should get rid of all statues no matter who they are including Mandela from Parliament square.

What’s good for one side of the argument is good for all

Ok. Let's get rid of statues. Fine by me.

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By *ustyshowoffCouple
over a year ago

Cyprus

[Removed by poster at 11/06/20 16:22:13]

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

That's the problem..only the good bits are taught.

It leads to some serious divisions and an immature understanding of what it means to come from a certain place."

Agreed.

It's about education

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By *ustyshowoffCouple
over a year ago

Cyprus

I hear the phrase the world is going mad, I’ve used it myself numerous times. But in truth it’s not the whole world, we live in Cyprus and the BLM protests don’t even get a mention here apart from expats talking about the UK news

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

That's the problem..only the good bits are taught.

It leads to some serious divisions and an immature understanding of what it means to come from a certain place.

Agreed.

It's about education"

I fear that we indoctrinate just as much as any of "those" people who we talk about indoctrinating others.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I hear the phrase the world is going mad, I’ve used it myself numerous times. But in truth it’s not the whole world, we live in Cyprus and the BLM protests don’t even get a mention here apart from expats talking about the UK news"

The world has been mad for a very long time, and we're trying to fix it.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Getting rid of all statues is fine by be. And cenotaphs.

It's reminiscent of the ISIS destroying all those cultural heritage sites.. I always wonder what happens when all the statues are gone.. maybe paintings, art, books..

All fair game for the greater good ...

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

That's the problem..only the good bits are taught.

It leads to some serious divisions and an immature understanding of what it means to come from a certain place.

Agreed.

It's about education

I fear that we indoctrinate just as much as any of "those" people who we talk about indoctrinating others."

The indoctrinating thing probably comes from the media

They are as guilty as anyone

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Getting rid of all statues is fine by be. And cenotaphs.

It's reminiscent of the ISIS destroying all those cultural heritage sites.. I always wonder what happens when all the statues are gone.. maybe paintings, art, books..

All fair game for the greater good ... "

Bit of a difference between a statue and a cenotaph

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The answer is simple, treat everyone equally and as an individual. Forget yesterday, act better today and treat people as you'd like to be treated yourself.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yep, beacuse statues are the only way to remember history, that's why nobody knows who Hitler was...bloody stupid

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I saw a poll on social media this week where people had voted Churchill as far worse than Adolf Hitler. I'm guessing they had googled Churchill looking for his failings and not bothered reading anything about Hitler.

"
Even if that were true, who would have liked to see Hitler as our Fuhrer ?

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Getting rid of all statues is fine by be. And cenotaphs.

It's reminiscent of the ISIS destroying all those cultural heritage sites.. I always wonder what happens when all the statues are gone.. maybe paintings, art, books..

All fair game for the greater good ... "

Goodness that's a nice slippery slide argument you have there.

Re-evaluating history does not mean removing all material culture and source material.

And personally I'd rather deprioritise those who stand obviously on the backs of slavery. (If that means all others, that's overkill, but "slavers are bad" is an important message)

Are we really at a point where "we shouldn't give public space of commemoration to slavers" is controversial?

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By *organ and rob zombieCouple
over a year ago

bradford

They’re not removing it, just moving it! Making an example of it!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

& shaking head at the whole situation, people have to much time on their hands at present

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By *ob Carpe DiemMan
over a year ago

Torquay

There's a lovely site in Wiltshire, I don't know if it was constructed with forced labour but it could have been, it would be great for a new town development and the A303 could become the M303 at the same time, I wonder which developer has their eye on it

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"The answer is simple, treat everyone equally and as an individual. Forget yesterday, act better today and treat people as you'd like to be treated yourself. "

If it were that simple we wouldn't be in this mess.

Our history, in curriculums and the way we prioritise some stories over others, pushes particular agendas. Those should be examined and re examined to do best by those learning it, help shape better citizens of the country and the world.

Our treatment of minorities clearly has a long way to go.

Being nice without seeing the context is turning a blind eye to reality.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised

I surprised you didn't learn about the slave trade and Churchill. They are both in the core curriculum for history under The Industrial Revolution and WW2 respectively.

History on this country,or it was when I was at school,was quite selective.

Has it changed now?"

History in school covers quite a lot but, under current guidelines, the school is able to choose option topics from a set list with only certain topics being mandatory. The school's history department decides what to cover based on teacher knowledge, resources available etc. Here's a link to the AQA GCSE subject spec for any that fancy the read.

https://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/history/gcse/history-8145/specification-at-a-glance

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Should be learning from history not trying to erase it

Nail on the head! Those who don't learn from history are consigned to repeat the mistakes.

Of course, to learn from history, you must know it. There is the often used phrase that "history is written by the victors". In the British context, I'm not sure how much of Britains colonial past is taught in schools, and the extent of the damage it caused worldwide (not that Britain was alone in committing such atrocities). Lets not forget that at the end of the 19th Century, Britons wealth and influence was established by pillaging resources from other countries.

No, we don't need our towns and cities littered with statues honouring slave traders. And while I don't condone public acts of vandalism, that statue in Bristol wouldn't have been taken down by the council.

Likewise, a lot of people are unhappy with the statue of Bomber Harris in London...

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By *tephanjMan
over a year ago

Kettering

Why now they were ok a couple weeks ago. Suddenly we look at past errors. Let just get it right now history is history already happened can't change it now

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

[Removed by poster at 11/06/20 16:39:05]

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

People often talk about needing to integrate minority groups. What about giving them a voice? "This is how your family, most likely, ended up in the UK. This is how your history and our history fit together. We've committed wrongs against each other, the UK has often been an oppressive and a cruel colonial power, but we're trying to make amends for that. If nothing else, we can celebrate the diverse ways we can be British and come together to create a brighter future".

Wouldn't that be nice.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Why now they were ok a couple weeks ago. Suddenly we look at past errors. Let just get it right now history is history already happened can't change it now"

People have been campaigning for the removal of that statue for FORTY YEARS.

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised

I surprised you didn't learn about the slave trade and Churchill. They are both in the core curriculum for history under The Industrial Revolution and WW2 respectively.

History on this country,or it was when I was at school,was quite selective.

Has it changed now?

https://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/history/gcse/history-8145/specification-at-a-glance"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We can't change our history but we can question what and why we celebrate certain things. What was appropriate years ago maybe quite different now.

Anything to do with slavery the wealth it created is dubious, at best. It happened, the wealth may have done some good but that doesn't make it right.

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By *tephanjMan
over a year ago

Kettering

"Why now they were ok a couple weeks ago. Suddenly we look at past errors. Let just get it right now history is history already happened can't change it now

People have been campaigning for the removal of that statue for FORTY YEARS."

Which one?

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"Why now they were ok a couple weeks ago. Suddenly we look at past errors. Let just get it right now history is history already happened can't change it now

People have been campaigning for the removal of that statue for FORTY YEARS."

FORTY YEARS is nothing...it took much longer for women to get the vote in this country...

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised"

This. Tell the history, don't commend it.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Why now they were ok a couple weeks ago. Suddenly we look at past errors. Let just get it right now history is history already happened can't change it now

People have been campaigning for the removal of that statue for FORTY YEARS.

Which one?"

Colston. Bristol have been involved in lots of discussions for a long time from what I can glean.

It'd seem to me that this is giving voice to a growing movement to re-examine the way we celebrate our past. It's a deep examination of history. It's an exploration of historical reception. It's not erasure. It's making it prominent.

Isn't it wonderful?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What’s going on suddenly with pulling down statues etc should we have to do what a minority demand or should we have the backbone to say no it’s our history good and bad, having these statues are here as a reminder and to learn from are they not? "

Imagine thinking removing a statue “erases history”

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Why now they were ok a couple weeks ago. Suddenly we look at past errors. Let just get it right now history is history already happened can't change it now

People have been campaigning for the removal of that statue for FORTY YEARS.

FORTY YEARS is nothing...it took much longer for women to get the vote in this country..."

And that's a good thing, to be repeated, why?

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

My comment.. your assumption

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not to get mixed up in the politics of statues but from a WWII perspective I imagine if Chamberlain had had his way there would not have been a war in Western Europe and the two great 'isms' of the 20th century would have settled it out in the East, sparing countless lives."
Chamberlain was never going to get his way. Hitler had already decided the outcome for Europe, if not the world. Appeasement was a stalling tactic with little good effect.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Imagine thinking removing a statue “erases history” "

It's not exactly damnatio memoriae, is it? (And that didn't work as well as intended either...)

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Imagine thinking removing a statue “erases history” "

Bizarrely it then becomes even more part of our history and the history of those depicted in statues.. perhaps in the future there may be a movement to replace or rebuild them..

History is fluid...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People often talk about needing to integrate minority groups. What about giving them a voice? "This is how your family, most likely, ended up in the UK. This is how your history and our history fit together. We've committed wrongs against each other, the UK has often been an oppressive and a cruel colonial power, but we're trying to make amends for that. If nothing else, we can celebrate the diverse ways we can be British and come together to create a brighter future".

Wouldn't that be nice."

We already have though, Britain was the first country to abolish slavery (our navy activity sought out slave ships on the worlds oceans forcing them to free slaves) and we went further by paying off slave owners to free slaves, that debt spanned 180 years and repayments of that debt ended in 2015. Surely that makes more amends than most other countries?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Getting rid of all statues is fine by be. And cenotaphs. "

Do you actually understand what a cenotaph is Tom?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The answer is simple, treat everyone equally and as an individual. Forget yesterday, act better today and treat people as you'd like to be treated yourself.

If it were that simple we wouldn't be in this mess.

Our treatment of minorities clearly has a long way to go.

Being nice without seeing the context is turning a blind eye to reality."

We need to learn from the past but we shouldn't hold onto grudges as things will never be solved that way.

I think one of the most shocking things that has stayed in my memory is being 7 or 8 years old and a man suddenly hurling abuse at an Asian looking guy (assuming he was Japanese) for treating him badly during WW2 when he was a prisoner of war.

I didn't see race as the issue, I saw someone picking on another person for something they (very likely) weren't part of or responsible for.

BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter. The slavery trade was often run by powerful people selling people of their own ethnicity to others.

It's no excuse to attack a UK police officer over an arsehole bully of an American police officer abusing his powers.

The world has gone mad when people commit crimes and try to get out of it by playing the 'race card'.

Equality should be what matters not BLM, ALM, WLM or any other acronym you could come up with.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Wouldn't that be nice.

Err... I might fact check some of that. I think Portugal (though not its empire) and Haiti were earlier. Giving money to people who owned slaves isn't exactly noble.

And I'm not talking about things we've done. I'm talking about how we do history now.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"Getting rid of all statues is fine by be. And cenotaphs.

Do you actually understand what a cenotaph is Tom?"

A what ?

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"The answer is simple, treat everyone equally and as an individual. Forget yesterday, act better today and treat people as you'd like to be treated yourself.

If it were that simple we wouldn't be in this mess.

Our treatment of minorities clearly has a long way to go.

Being nice without seeing the context is turning a blind eye to reality.

We need to learn from the past but we shouldn't hold onto grudges as things will never be solved that way.

I didn't see race as the issue, I saw someone picking on another person for something they (very likely) weren't part of or responsible for.

BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter. The slavery trade was often run by powerful people selling people of their own ethnicity to others.

It's no excuse to attack a UK police officer over an arsehole bully of an American police officer abusing his powers.

The world has gone mad when people commit crimes and try to get out of it by playing the 'race card'.

Equality should be what matters not BLM, ALM, WLM or any other acronym you could come up with."

Black lives matter.

Just because it happened in the past doesn't mean that the consequences don't live on. Doesn't mean that people don't need to be heard. It certainly doesn't mean that we can teach a fairytale positive version of history to make us feel better

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

Wouldn't that be nice.

Yeah we did abolish slavery, the slave owners many of whom sat in parliament made sure they were compensated for the loss of their property. The slaves did not receive a penny of compensation. In fact they had to do unpaid apprenticeships of the work they were already doing. So the slave traders were compensated and got more slave labour. Not sure this counts as making amends for slavery

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"The answer is simple, treat everyone equally and as an individual. Forget yesterday, act better today and treat people as you'd like to be treated yourself.

If it were that simple we wouldn't be in this mess.

Our treatment of minorities clearly has a long way to go.

Being nice without seeing the context is turning a blind eye to reality.

We need to learn from the past but we shouldn't hold onto grudges as things will never be solved that way.

I didn't see race as the issue, I saw someone picking on another person for something they (very likely) weren't part of or responsible for.

BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter. The slavery trade was often run by powerful people selling people of their own ethnicity to others.

It's no excuse to attack a UK police officer over an arsehole bully of an American police officer abusing his powers.

The world has gone mad when people commit crimes and try to get out of it by playing the 'race card'.

Equality should be what matters not BLM, ALM, WLM or any other acronym you could come up with."

I'm not sure if people do commit crimes and play the race card tbh.And it certainly doesnt work in the states.

I do think there is a big issue around race and equality in this country and its certainly not black and white (pardon the pun)

I think some actions like the r##e gangs in northern england have given legitimacy to the likes of Tommy Robinson

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The answer is simple, treat everyone equally and as an individual. Forget yesterday, act better today and treat people as you'd like to be treated yourself.

If it were that simple we wouldn't be in this mess.

Our treatment of minorities clearly has a long way to go.

Being nice without seeing the context is turning a blind eye to reality.

We need to learn from the past but we shouldn't hold onto grudges as things will never be solved that way.

I didn't see race as the issue, I saw someone picking on another person for something they (very likely) weren't part of or responsible for.

BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter. The slavery trade was often run by powerful people selling people of their own ethnicity to others.

It's no excuse to attack a UK police officer over an arsehole bully of an American police officer abusing his powers.

The world has gone mad when people commit crimes and try to get out of it by playing the 'race card'.

Equality should be what matters not BLM, ALM, WLM or any other acronym you could come up with.

Black lives matter.

All lives matter.

Nowhere am I suggesting we forget history. Sometimes it's to be celebrated, sometimes to be derided, but always to be learnt from.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Firstly the argument that removing statues is erasing history is the number one most pathetic argument on the go at the moment. If that was the case, how do we know who Hitler was? It’s been said further up this thread, but put them in museums and teach our children what horrible sorts some of our ancestors were, rather than leave constant reminders to the ancestors of those they abused!

Second, as I’ve seen on this thread, all lives matter runs erasing history a close second to worst argument to current issues. Yes of course all lives matter but the issue isn’t that all lives are disproportionately under threat of harm. All the houses in my street matter but if ones on fire, the water fairies will only attend that house, because at that given time, that house matters more. If an adjacent house starts to catch fire, you still have to eradicate the initial problem so as to be able to truly say, all houses/lives matter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Firstly the argument that removing statues is erasing history is the number one most pathetic argument on the go at the moment. If that was the case, how do we know who Hitler was? It’s been said further up this thread, but put them in museums and teach our children what horrible sorts some of our ancestors were, rather than leave constant reminders to the ancestors of those they abused!

If the fire starts to spread then you aim the hoses at that to contain and control the spread. It's much easier to put out a smoldering ember than a fully burning coal.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What if all these statues had been quietly removed with no fanfare. How many people would have complained and protested for them to be restored?

I doubt it would have made a ripple. At least there's a debate and people are now aware of the history and why they should be removed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why now they were ok a couple weeks ago. Suddenly we look at past errors. Let just get it right now history is history already happened can't change it now

People have been campaigning for the removal of that statue for FORTY YEARS.

Which one?

Colston. Bristol have been involved in lots of discussions for a long time from what I can glean.

Isn't it wonderful?

I agree it absolutely is

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"The answer is simple, treat everyone equally and as an individual. Forget yesterday, act better today and treat people as you'd like to be treated yourself.

If it were that simple we wouldn't be in this mess.

Our treatment of minorities clearly has a long way to go.

Being nice without seeing the context is turning a blind eye to reality.

We need to learn from the past but we shouldn't hold onto grudges as things will never be solved that way.

I didn't see race as the issue, I saw someone picking on another person for something they (very likely) weren't part of or responsible for.

BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter. The slavery trade was often run by powerful people selling people of their own ethnicity to others.

It's no excuse to attack a UK police officer over an arsehole bully of an American police officer abusing his powers.

The world has gone mad when people commit crimes and try to get out of it by playing the 'race card'.

Equality should be what matters not BLM, ALM, WLM or any other acronym you could come up with.

Black lives matter.

All lives matter.

Nowhere am I suggesting we forget history. Sometimes it's to be celebrated, sometimes to be derided, but always to be learnt from. "

The way we teach history matters, which is what I'm saying.

When all lives are under as much threat and systemic disadvantage as BAME lives are, I might say "all lives matter" (although to be honest the way it's used, I'll probably avoid it). In the meantime, black lives matter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Alright, lets have a statue of Jimmy Saville outside the BBC HQ to learn from then. "

Now then, Now then, that's a smashing idea.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter."

Not that long ago, this would have been my exact, well meaning but ignorant response. Why? Because it misses the point. Of course all lives mater regardless of race, creed, colour, gender or orientation.

With BLM, its calling out actions and situations that non-black people don't have to face. Would that police officer have knelt on a white persons neck in the same way, and would his colleagues have stood by and looked on?

I'm not from around here. I was born and raised in another country. As long as I've lived here, no body has ever told me to "go back home". But I'm white. Yet I know black people, born and raised in this country, who have had that and worse said to them, purely because they are a different colour. It's disgusting.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"What if all these statues had been quietly removed with no fanfare. How many people would have complained and protested for them to be restored?

I doubt it would have made a ripple. At least there's a debate and people are now aware of the history and why they should be removed. "

Indeed. This is just people being made uncomfortable by what was already there.

People were already uncomfortable. You just can't as easily turn your back anymore.

Black lives matter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If the fire starts to spread then you aim the hoses at that to contain and control the spread. It's much easier to put out a smoldering ember than a fully burning coal. "

The point is you have to solve the first problem, in this case BLM and the disproportionate treatment of BAME before you can say ALM, otherwise all lives don’t matter cos you can’t be arsed sorting out BLM. ALM is true, but it’s a vacuous statement and we need to educate ourselves more

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By *ob Carpe DiemMan
over a year ago

Torquay

I understand your point but where do you draw the line, every Roman emperor benefitted from slavery, do they all go in museums, there isn't a blanket answer

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter.

I'm foreign and white.

I get told I'm British really (which is a weird compliment erasing my country's existence) until they get a whiff of my politics.

Then I get told to fuck off back where I came from

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter.

We’ve all benefited from this white privilege

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter.

We’ve all benefited from this white privilege

Oh so much.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I understand your point but where do you draw the line, every Roman emperor benefitted from slavery, do they all go in museums, there isn't a blanket answer"

How many statues of Roman emperors are there in this country?

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Given the realities of erosion, historical statues are often better off in museums, anyway.

Help, specialised climate control and restoration on hand! They're being oppressed!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I understand your point but where do you draw the line, every Roman emperor benefitted from slavery, do they all go in museums, there isn't a blanket answer"

The fact we didn't learn from Roman times that trafficking and profiting from people was wrong isn't to be celebrated. I think the really offensive thing about these monuments is that they celebrate people who made fortunes out of exploiting other people in the worst possible way.

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By *ob Carpe DiemMan
over a year ago

Torquay

I understand your point but where do you draw the line, every Roman emperor benefitted from slavery, do they all go in museums, there isn't a blanket answer

How many statues of Roman emperors are there in this country? "

Probably quite a few but why is it only about this country, Rome must have hundreds, my question I like to think is valid, where do you draw the line?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If the fire starts to spread then you aim the hoses at that to contain and control the spread. It's much easier to put out a smoldering ember than a fully burning coal.

So you are saying that before we deal with the escalation of violence towards Police Officers (of all ethnicity), violence towards anyone who isn't the same ethnicity as you, etc. we need to deal with the BLM issue? That surely lends itself to escalation instead of understanding and sense.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Given the realities of erosion, historical statues are often better off in museums, anyway.

Help, specialised climate control and restoration on hand! They're being oppressed!"

Slaver sympathisers and pigeons will be the only ones upset

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By *entakuruMan
over a year ago

Exeter

I would say it's more of a case of historical revisionism being corrected. We as a society are coming to terms with the fact that many of our 'heroes' are deeply flawed. Acknowledging that is difficult for many people and understandably even causes cognitive dissonances in certain people. Traditionally society overlooked the peccadillos of 'Great Men and Women' but now we are not so easily duped. We used to look on Mother Theresa and even Jimmy Saville as being great people, then we discovered the dark side eclipsed their benevolent acts. So it is the same with the former slave traders and racist politicians. We are finally realising that some good acts do not negate the babble ones.

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By *entakuruMan
over a year ago

Exeter

* bad ones, damn autocorrected again

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By *ranimallxl5Man
over a year ago

Winchester

"Don't forget this is now a minority run country.

xx"

How did brexit win then?

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

If the fire starts to spread then you aim the hoses at that to contain and control the spread. It's much easier to put out a smoldering ember than a fully burning coal.

We should deal with abuses of power before anything else. Start with the police, the courts, the schools. It is clearly most crucial looking at why certain groups are singled out.

Then examine why violence happens, where it comes from, how to de escalate and prevent it.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I would say it's more of a case of historical revisionism being corrected. We as a society are coming to terms with the fact that many of our 'heroes' are deeply flawed. Acknowledging that is difficult for many people and understandably even causes cognitive dissonances in certain people. Traditionally society overlooked the peccadillos of 'Great Men and Women' but now we are not so easily duped. We used to look on Mother Theresa and even Jimmy Saville as being great people, then we discovered the dark side eclipsed their benevolent acts. So it is the same with the former slave traders and racist politicians. We are finally realising that some good acts do not negate the babble ones. "

History is messy and ugly. We do a disservice to historical triumphs by not seeing them set against the brutality they rose above.

And a disservice to those still living with the aftermath of that brutality.

And ourselves, because we fail to understand ourselves in a nuanced light.

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

What did mother Theresa do?

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

"Don't forget this is now a minority run country.

How did brexit win then?"

That bus didn’t help and the blatant lie

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

History is messy and ugly. We do a disservice to historical triumphs by not seeing them set against the brutality they rose above.

And a disservice to those still living with the aftermath of that brutality.

And ourselves, because we fail to understand ourselves in a nuanced light."

History certainly isnt black and white.

Len mccluskey..I think got stick for answering the question was churchill good or evil..evil..when the truth was he was a mixture of both.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter.

Look up Tony Timpa... So yes some 'over zealous' Police Officers don't only kill black people.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter.

Look up Tony Timpa... So yes some 'over zealous' Police Officers don't only kill black people. "

I'm not sure anyone has ever said that only black people suffer or are killed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If the fire starts to spread then you aim the hoses at that to contain and control the spread. It's much easier to put out a smoldering ember than a fully burning coal.

I have not mentioned the violence towards the Police, so I will say that there are a minority of people who have hijacked the BLM peaceful protests, and it is disgraceful. They are no better than any other right/left wing activists the likes of which are threatening to be present in London this weekend and will clearly have other interests. I am saying that if BLM is addressed and we get to the point that all lives truly do matter equally, the troublemakers will really have a lot less to be idiots about.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"Don't forget this is now a minority run country.

How did brexit win then?

That bus didn’t help and the blatant lie

Project fear and lobbying by Obama didn't help either..

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

We should not erase our history and also not sanitise it either.

We've had some horrendous acts done against millions of people and we should extend history education so that we know and understand this.

The atrocities of the past can help to guide us away from such behaviour now. We run the risk of sleepwalking into many similar patterns, blinkered by our ignorance.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"We should not erase our history and also not sanitise it either.

We've had some horrendous acts done against millions of people and we should extend history education so that we know and understand this.

The atrocities of the past can help to guide us away from such behaviour now. We run the risk of sleepwalking into many similar patterns, blinkered by our ignorance. "

Well said.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We should not erase our history and also not sanitise it either.

We've had some horrendous acts done against millions of people and we should extend history education so that we know and understand this.

The atrocities of the past can help to guide us away from such behaviour now. We run the risk of sleepwalking into many similar patterns, blinkered by our ignorance. "

Spot on

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter.

Look up Tony Timpa... So yes some 'over zealous' Police Officers don't only kill black people.

I'm not sure anyone has ever said that only black people suffer or are killed."

Would that police officer have knelt on a white persons neck in the same way, and would his colleagues have stood by and looked on?...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A few years ago the NT decided to do this big public apology for slavery, putting out informative signs etc concerning slavery. I was contracting to the Trust at the time and got chatting to a Jamaican fella. He said he found it insulting and it made him angry as it was something everyone knew had happened and had been stopped so long ago because it was wrong..he said its nothing more than political angling dragging it up again and that his day out was ruined by it staring him in the face at every turn. He said people he passed were looking awkward around him...he was pretty pissed off. This is political appeasement at its worst. Apologise for current crimes and wrongdoings not use the past as a political tool.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We should not erase our history and also not sanitise it either.

We've had some horrendous acts done against millions of people and we should extend history education so that we know and understand this.

The atrocities of the past can help to guide us away from such behaviour now. We run the risk of sleepwalking into many similar patterns, blinkered by our ignorance. "

Sense.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 11/06/20 17:40:07]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We should not erase our history and also not sanitise it either.

We've had some horrendous acts done against millions of people and we should extend history education so that we know and understand this.

The atrocities of the past can help to guide us away from such behaviour now. We run the risk of sleepwalking into many similar patterns, blinkered by our ignorance.

Sense.

It does make sense, and before we focus too much on negative viewpoints, we are making progress when taking into account the past.

Injustice and atrocities still happen,but they dont seem to be celebrated or ignored to the same extent. It's not where we want to be, but its progress, and whilst cruel, history brought us here.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter.

Look up Tony Timpa... So yes some 'over zealous' Police Officers don't only kill black people.

I'm not sure anyone has ever said that only black people suffer or are killed.

Would that police officer have knelt on a white persons neck in the same way, and would his colleagues have stood by and looked on?... "

Unlikely

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"We should not erase our history and also not sanitise it either.

We've had some horrendous acts done against millions of people and we should extend history education so that we know and understand this.

The atrocities of the past can help to guide us away from such behaviour now. We run the risk of sleepwalking into many similar patterns, blinkered by our ignorance.

Sense.

It does make sense, and before we focus too much on negative viewpoints, we are making progress when taking into account the past.

Injustice and atrocities still happen,but they dont seem to be celebrated or ignored to the same extent. It's not where we want to be, but its progress, and whilst cruel, history brought us here."

Absolutely. We did horrible things. How do we learn from that, think about creating a better society, ensure it doesn't happen again?

Aren't historical achievements so much greater when seen rising above the sea of shit they so often came from?

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter.

Look up Tony Timpa... So yes some 'over zealous' Police Officers don't only kill black people.

I'm not sure anyone has ever said that only black people suffer or are killed.

Would that police officer have knelt on a white persons neck in the same way, and would his colleagues have stood by and looked on?...

Unlikely"

We will never know...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"BLM as a concept is a farce, all lives matter.

Look up Tony Timpa... So yes some 'over zealous' Police Officers don't only kill black people.

I'm not sure anyone has ever said that only black people suffer or are killed.

Would that police officer have knelt on a white persons neck in the same way, and would his colleagues have stood by and looked on?...

Unlikely"

I was quoting a previous post, it has happened. Hence the...

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Again.

No one is ever saying that no white person has ever been brutalised by authorities.

It happens disproportionately to ethnic minorities (and other minority groups).

Right now the fight is on race.

Bad stuff sometimes happens to white people. I don't know why I need to say this!

Black. Lives. Matter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We should not erase our history and also not sanitise it either.

We've had some horrendous acts done against millions of people and we should extend history education so that we know and understand this.

The atrocities of the past can help to guide us away from such behaviour now. We run the risk of sleepwalking into many similar patterns, blinkered by our ignorance.

Sense.

It does make sense, and before we focus too much on negative viewpoints, we are making progress when taking into account the past.

Injustice and atrocities still happen,but they dont seem to be celebrated or ignored to the same extent. It's not where we want to be, but its progress, and whilst cruel, history brought us here.

Absolutely. We did horrible things. How do we learn from that, think about creating a better society, ensure it doesn't happen again?

Aren't historical achievements so much greater when seen rising above the sea of shit they so often came from?"

True, and as they say history is written by the victor.

Looking at this objectively though, I am concerned at how much of this may play out to the far right and the extreme far right if not thought out.

There are many with no I'll malice who disagree with current actions like the removal of statutes. With calm and measured discussions they understand.

But if it's a case of steam roller everything regardless, then resentment of some very dangerous individuals, will be provided fuel for their fires.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"Again.

No one is ever saying that no white person has ever been brutalised by authorities.

It happens disproportionately to ethnic minorities (and other minority groups).

Right now the fight is on race.

Bad stuff sometimes happens to white people. I don't know why I need to say this!

Black. Lives. Matter."

And brown, and yellow and white..

Police lives also matter

All lives matter

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised

I surprised you didn't learn about the slave trade and Churchill. They are both in the core curriculum for history under The Industrial Revolution and WW2 respectively.

Nope. I would have love to have learned about WW2, it fascinated me. I learnt about WW1 though

It's dead interesting and ww2 wouldnt have happened without ww1.

Seems weird to have just 1 on the curriculum."

its not weird its a capacity issue

history increases every single day, it can’t all be taught

in primary school history was taught as occasional projects ... the Jacobites & stewarts, christopher columbus ... i honestly dont remember much more

in secondary school it was 1 hour per week for 2 years after which its an elective subject... how much do they really think you can get through ... it cant be a school’s responsibility to teach everything

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"We should not erase our history and also not sanitise it either.

We've had some horrendous acts done against millions of people and we should extend history education so that we know and understand this.

The atrocities of the past can help to guide us away from such behaviour now. We run the risk of sleepwalking into many similar patterns, blinkered by our ignorance.

Sense.

It does make sense, and before we focus too much on negative viewpoints, we are making progress when taking into account the past.

Injustice and atrocities still happen,but they dont seem to be celebrated or ignored to the same extent. It's not where we want to be, but its progress, and whilst cruel, history brought us here.

Absolutely. We did horrible things. How do we learn from that, think about creating a better society, ensure it doesn't happen again?

Aren't historical achievements so much greater when seen rising above the sea of shit they so often came from?

True, and as they say history is written by the victor.

Looking at this objectively though, I am concerned at how much of this may play out to the far right and the extreme far right if not thought out.

There are many with no I'll malice who disagree with current actions like the removal of statutes. With calm and measured discussions they understand.

But if it's a case of steam roller everything regardless, then resentment of some very dangerous individuals, will be provided fuel for their fires."

I don't know how we proceed, but I don't think we should sugarcoat history and pander to our glorious wonderful flawless empire nonsense to cater to a bunch of thugs. (Yes I'm aware of the way that phrase is often used, and I'm very deliberately applying it to that section of society)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We are all aware that George Floyd served a sentence for armed robbery and home invasion aren't we? Would you not be cautious of him from his history? Just to put things into context.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"We are all aware that George Floyd served a sentence for armed robbery and home invasion aren't we? Would you not be cautious of him from his history? Just to put things into context. "

Does cautious extend to rendering him helpless then leaning on him until he died?

And no, I won't get into "he served time therefore his death was excusable".

With power comes responsibility. The police should not have done that. To him or anyone else. In that case they had other ways to restrain him without ending his life.

Stop excusing lethal police brutality.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"We are all aware that George Floyd served a sentence for armed robbery and home invasion aren't we? Would you not be cautious of him from his history? Just to put things into context. "

To be fair he was handcuffed behind his back and outnumbered at least 3 to 1 and probably searched for weapons.. it was OTT..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We are all aware that George Floyd served a sentence for armed robbery and home invasion aren't we? Would you not be cautious of him from his history? Just to put things into context. "

Do you not believe people can reform. Or should we be suspicious of everyone with previous convictions

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Shove it in a museum.

I doubt that the statues being pulled down are being taught about in schools. I didn’t learn about Slavery, Churchill etc.

Teach it to children, put it in museums and let people learn. No need for giant statues celebrating their actions.

Plus, in museums, they’ll be better protected and less likely to be vandalised

I surprised you didn't learn about the slave trade and Churchill. They are both in the core curriculum for history under The Industrial Revolution and WW2 respectively.

Nope. I would have love to have learned about WW2, it fascinated me. I learnt about WW1 though

It's dead interesting and ww2 wouldnt have happened without ww1.

Seems weird to have just 1 on the curriculum.

its not weird its a capacity issue

history increases every single day, it can’t all be taught

in primary school history was taught as occasional projects ... the Jacobites & stewarts, christopher columbus ... i honestly dont remember much more

But world war 1 and 2 are linked.

Just thought it was a bit strange teaching 1 and not the other.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wouldn't that be nice."

This! As someone who is the son of two immigrant parents who came from very different backgrounds, this sums it up nicely!

And if someone enjoys a bit of comedy The link below is amazing

https://youtu.be/COD9hcTpGWQ

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