FabSwingers.com forum: Does anyone approve of the tearing down of statues?

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I'm going to kick this off, by saying I did. Then I changed my mind.

Apparently Winston Churchill was a slave owner or was in some way involved in the slave trade.( Not sure how accurate this is.) I would not touch a statue of Winston Churchill. Moreover I would defend one to the point of my death. In fact how many black people were called Winston.

He stood up straight and tall against the Nazis including Mosely. When many others bent. I have long argued that those racist who wave their banners, disrespect the sacrifice of this country and all those who served and died. They wear swatikas, celebrate Hitler then they wave our union jack with no understanding of what it actually stands for today.

So my point. Slavery was/is evil.(yes it still exists.) Its barbarity cannot be excused.

But. Does involvement destroy any good that that person has done?

Sir Winston Churchill defeated the most racist foe the world has ever seen. But for him black people would have (in my opinion.) Been slaves of Hitler's third Reich or worse suffered a similar fate to the jews. Equally and perhaps of more pertinence. But for black people ie. The black spitfire pilots of Jamaica, the black people who served in both the navy and the merchant navy and the black soldiers also fighting. The history of world war could have been so different They all served under Churchill's command.

My conclusion when I thought about it was really simple. Would the rev. Martin Luther King approve? And you know what? I don't think he would.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yeah man. Shove ‘em in museums

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't approve of it..

These people are part of our history, regardless of what they did or how they made their fortunes... stick them in a museum, sure..

But don't remove altogether

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By *tarlord6969Man
over a year ago

stockport

"I'm going to kick this off, by saying I did. Then I changed my mind.

So my point. Slavery was/is evil.(yes it still exists.) Its barbarity cannot be excused.

But. Does involvement destroy any good that that person has done?

My conclusion when I thought about it was really simple. Would the rev. Martin Luther King approve? And you know what? I don't think he would.

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By *aughty_nymphWoman
over a year ago

Cheltenham

I think tearing down statues is vandalism.

Yes I agree that “celebrating” such awful acts is wrong, and I by no means condone racism, but we can’t erase the past. Yes some awful and unforgivable things have happened throughout history but these actions took place in a different era. An era that has progressed and attitudes are changing. If anything, the statues still up should remind us how much society has changed and will change in the future.

I don’t agree at all with vandalism of war memorials. The fallen gave their lives to give us our freedom and without that I believe society we know today would be very very different and a lot worse.

I hope I’ve worded everything right and not caused any offence... it’s so hard to convey tone in a typed message!

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By *atelotmanMan
over a year ago

Chatham

"I'm going to kick this off, by saying I did. Then I changed my mind.

So my point. Slavery was/is evil.(yes it still exists.) Its barbarity cannot be excused.

But. Does involvement destroy any good that that person has done?

My conclusion when I thought about it was really simple. Would the rev. Martin Luther King approve? And you know what? I don't think he would.

I like your thinking. I only have one point to correct you on. Why would anyone want to wave an empty pole about. The Union flag is just that a flag, the jack part is the post/Staff it is flown from. Apart from that

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By *AYENCouple
over a year ago

Lincolnshire

No expert on history, but Winston Churchill was born way after slavery was abolished.

But those that were slave owners should be torn down in my opinion, just because they've been there for a long time doesn't mean they should still be there.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its an interesting one and can see why people may not want to be remembered but history is history and should not be forgotten

there are so many places in bristol that are named after the guy whos statue was taken down due to the amount of money he gave to the city. I know a couple have changed names but are they going to rename them all? Or are statues too easy a reminder to deal with

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yeah man. Shove ‘em in museums "

This. In a museum they can be given historical context instead of celebrating them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm going to kick this off, by saying I did. Then I changed my mind.

So my point. Slavery was/is evil.(yes it still exists.) Its barbarity cannot be excused.

But. Does involvement destroy any good that that person has done?

My conclusion when I thought about it was really simple. Would the rev. Martin Luther King approve? And you know what? I don't think he would.

"
As at Bristol No But a revue generally I believe is welcome to be “placed” Into storage is sensible

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By *lbinoGorillaMan
over a year ago

Redditch

I made a half-arsed attempt to mention this on the Little Britain thread.

I disagree strongly with this, mainly because I don't agree with trying to erase or rewrite history just because you don't like something.

Also, nobody on this world is purely good or purely evil (other than maybe Nazi top command and Enid Blyton

)

For example Gandhi, generally regarded as a good bloke, and we overlook his less agreeable habit of sleeping next to naked women (plural) to test his vow of celibacy.

But for breathtaking chutzpah, there was that kid last year demanding that Oxford University

remove their statue of Cecil Rhodes whilst being on the scholarship provided by Cecil Rhodes! Happy to take his money but not look at his statue, and seemingly oblivious to the hypocrisy therein

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By *tew008Man
over a year ago

edinburgh

"No expert on history, but Winston Churchill was born way after slavery was abolished.

But those that were slave owners should be torn down in my opinion, just because they've been there for a long time doesn't mean they should still be there. "

Churchill was pretty racist. Moderate maybe you could say for the times. He wouldn’t have any “native” in charge or in a position of too much power. He also let Indians starve during the Bengal famine. I think he could’ve stopped a lot of deaths but stockpiled food for the British.

So slave wise I think he was against it but definitely held racist views.

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By *uriousscouserWoman
over a year ago

Wirral

In Bristol one of the compromises suggested was to attach a plaque detailing the links to slavery. Seems a sensible solution, and one being considered in Liverpool to be placed in the streets named after slave traders and those with strong links to slavery.

I do think it's important that we face our past, rather than just pushing it somewhere out of sight in the hope it will be forgotten. Liverpool is a city built on slave trading and to me it's really important that it's acknowledged, recognised and that we learn about the distasteful elements of the past rather than trying to glorify it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No, statues should stay.

They should serve as a reminder of what times were. To get rid of them is the same as claiming it never happened in the first place

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By *moothdickMan
over a year ago

stoke

No I do not agree... should we rewrite history .. what ever happened and by whom, happened.. whether we think it’s right or wrong ... we can’t write history just to what we select .. truth, warts and all ....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Apparently Winston Churchill was a slave owner or was in some way involved in the slave trade."

Slavery was abolished by Britain and throughout its colonies in 1807(yes I had to Google that date to be sure)

Winston Churchill wasn't born till 1874

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By *tew008Man
over a year ago

edinburgh

also history should never be forgotten anyone saying that is foolish.

I see it more as who should be commemorated.

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By *he Queen of TartsWoman
Forum Mod
over a year ago

My Own Little World

"I'm going to kick this off, by saying I did. Then I changed my mind.

Apparently Winston Churchill was a slave owner or was in some way involved in the slave trade.( Not sure how accurate this is.) "

He was born in 1874, so highly unlikely.

1833 - Britain passes Abolition of Slavery Act, ordering gradual abolition of slavery in all British colonies.

I don't think anyone can argue that he wasn't racist, he very much was. And I think his views on other races were very prevalent in his age, not with everyone certainly. But he was I think, 'a man of his time' as the saying goes.

But if I was given a vote, does his statue stay or go, I would vote stay.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In Bristol one of the compromises suggested was to attach a plaque detailing the links to slavery. Seems a sensible solution, and one being considered in Liverpool to be placed in the streets named after slave traders and those with strong links to slavery.

This^

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Removal of statues in a democratic way for sure.

The scenes we have seen in Bristol are uncalled for, this is purely destruction of property. You have to hand it to the police response though, I believe they handled it very well considering the circumstances

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Statues celebrate people who have done great things. Some of these people also did terrible things by today's standards. Back them though it was all legal and good. To show how we have changed, let's preserve them in a place where we can give context to their actions and educate people.

Celebrating our heroes with statues will always be flawed though, nobody is perfect and they will have done something that someone will find distasteful. Gazza was a wife beater, Churchill an imperialist, MLK jr was a womaniser, Mark Wahlberg a convicted racist, Ant Middleton was jailed for beating up a female police officer. Whether your heroes are politicians, sports stars or off the TV they are less then perfect. Be done with statues and celebrate the true heroes, the regular folk that work together to bring about true change for the future. Better people = better world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont

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By *tew008Man
over a year ago

edinburgh

"Statues celebrate people who have done great things. Some of these people also did terrible things by today's standards. Back them though it was all legal and good. To show how we have changed, let's preserve them in a place where we can give context to their actions and educate people.

Always weird how there is so many statues commemorating people. I’ve always preferred the statues commemorating human triumphs. More relatable to me anyway being part of a species that achieved that.

Having people propped up always seemed imperialist and like a history lecture.

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By *lbinoGorillaMan
over a year ago

Redditch

"How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont"

I don't, certainly

But it's just mob mentality, and everyone egging everyone else on. Pathetic, really

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think we do need to remember these people, in the hope of remembering just how vile humans can be to each other and make sure it never happens again. But to have statues in honour of them is just wrong. Yes they should be taken down.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont

I don't, certainly

But it's just mob mentality, and everyone egging everyone else on. Pathetic, really "

Yep I agree,having said I probably walk past loads of statues and didn't even notice they're there

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't approve, if you go down that road you will end up erasing history

All kinds of bad things haunt our past but it's made us the people we are today

We need that history as a reminder to show us how we got to where we are today

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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago

There and to the left a bit

IF and only IF a statue was erected in celebration of that persons involvement in slavery then yes I can understand a call for it to be removed - but if, as is the case with most of the statues being desecrated or being called for removal, the reason for their erection was for other achievements of greatness such as Churchill's leadership in probably this country's greatest hour of need - then no I don't understand it at all.

I mean how far do you take it? Should exhibitions about the Ancient Egyptians or the Roman's be stopped because they kept slaves, or Henry VIII be wiped from history because of his attitude to women?

I *do* get why some would see some acts carried out in the past as unsavoury (and lord knows us proud British hardly have an unblemished record in that respect), I see them as such myself, but in seeing that comes an acceptance that it was in the past and of a different time when people *did* think and act differently, and that we have evolved and moved on since then, and learned from our past.

You cannot wipe out history, but you can learn from history to make tomorrow better - and eradicating the memory of people that achieved greatness for reasons other than slavery (or any other unsavoury act) is a very dangerous path towards a "thought police" society.

Yes there are some examples where the unsavoury act outweighs the other good things a person may have done (Savile is an example I have seen cited as a counter argument) and where that is the case then of course discretion and the greater good prevails - but to use Churchill as an example (and there's no escaping he had a very unsavoury side) what he did for this country far outweighs anything else and anyone suggesting his statues be removed or desecrating them has lost sight of reality in my opinion.

It's a difficult one for sure and I *do* understand the situation but like I said a reality check is called for in some of these instances.

And before anyone calls me a right wing racist, a bigot and more, I'm a card carrying "leftie" who has been called "snowflake" more times than I care to remember - I just take a realistic, pragmatic and yes sometimes idealistic view and in this instance the above is it in my opinion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont"

I have and plenty of others have. Most of the statues in London are imperial figures of the British Empire where'

'The sun never set and the blood never dried'

British history is written by the victor's that too few question.

The statues should be replaced by memorials to victims of the British empire.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont

I don't, certainly

But it's just mob mentality, and everyone egging everyone else on. Pathetic, really

Yep I agree,having said I probably walk past loads of statues and didn't even notice they're there"

If they're not being seen or noticed then they can be taken down. Not by mobs though. That should never be allowed. Otherwise the mob decides what is right and wrong and that's not democratic.

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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

I wouldn’t condone vandalising statues , there’s much smarter direct action like not buying certain products.

I wouldn’t defend one either, just because someone does something good, even some role in a war, doesn’t excuse other parts of their character and make them something to be proud of, often the opposite, shows lack of personal integrity.

So to statue pullers and defenders id say get a life, statues are boring.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont

I have and plenty of others have. Most of the statues in London are imperial figures of the British Empire where'

'The sun never set and the blood never dried'

British history is written by the victor's that too few question.

The statues should be replaced by memorials to victims of the British empire. "

I'd rather see memorials to fallen soldiers,alas its only the opinion of a simple northern man

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yeah man. Shove ‘em in museums

This. In a museum they can be given historical context instead of celebrating them."

Agree.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont

I have and plenty of others have. Most of the statues in London are imperial figures of the British Empire where'

'The sun never set and the blood never dried'

British history is written by the victor's that too few question.

The statues should be replaced by memorials to victims of the British empire.

I'd rather see memorials to fallen soldiers,alas its only the opinion of a simple northern man"

There should be memorials to both, a bayonet is after all a weapon with a working class man at either end of it.

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By *ob Carpe DiemMan
over a year ago

Torquay

Airbrushing history is not an answer, if Churchill was born 20 or 30 years ago his views on race would probably be very different, we are all the product of our times to some extent. Cecil Rhodes is demonized for being a colonial but that was viewed as a good thing in his day. Leave the statues but add a plaque explaining the true history seems a better idea to me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont

I have and plenty of others have. Most of the statues in London are imperial figures of the British Empire where'

'The sun never set and the blood never dried'

British history is written by the victor's that too few question.

The statues should be replaced by memorials to victims of the British empire.

I'd rather see memorials to fallen soldiers,alas its only the opinion of a simple northern man

There should be memorials to both, a bayonet is after all a weapon with a working class man at either end of it."

Good reply

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By *andR Staffs cplCouple
over a year ago

here and there

It seems a lot of protesters use the reason of links to slavery to tear statues down and particularly in the Churchill statues case ignore the fight against a racist he oversaw.

Given how the reason movement began in the U.S. and recent language over there and here has inferred that to remain quiet is to be racist, can we expect statues of the first 14 Presidents before Lincoln who allowed slavery and therefore racism to continue, to be torn down, therefore leading to 2 faces of mount Rushmore to be removed?

The teachings of history is supposed to tell us what has come before both good and bad and let us learn from mistakes made so they are not repeated, but can we do that if these are removed?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't approve of it..

These people are part of our history, regardless of what they did or how they made their fortunes... stick them in a museum, sure..

But don't remove altogether "

I agree!! Our history is still important

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Racism should not be tolerated by anyone but tearing down statues is wrong ,do things the right way lobby and petition.where do we stop ,pulling down the pyramids for being slave built .its history learn from the mistakes of the past

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I agree they should be taken down. But properly, not by groups of 'protestors' who are up for a bit of random violence.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Simple answer is no. Mob justice or vigilante justice is not the answer.

Yes the copper in US was wrong however let's not forget that George Floyd was a wanted criminal not an innocent law abiding citizen.

No protest or rallies about cops killing white people just seems to be too many snowflakes around the world atm and sooner they disappear the better

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By *est Wales WifeCouple
over a year ago

Near Carmarthen

" I would not touch a statue of Winston Churchill. "

The same Churchill who wrote early in his career "After today we begin to burn villages. Every one. And all who resist will be killed without quarter. The Mohmands need a lesson, and there is no doubt we are a very cruel people"

And who said the Pashtuns needed to “recognize the superiority of race.”

The same Churchill whose actions caused the deaths of 4.3 milliion people in the Bengal famine.

History has been far too kind to Churchill, a deeply flawed leader who surrounded himself with a splendid bodyguard of myths

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" I would not touch a statue of Winston Churchill.

And who said the Pashtuns needed to “recognize the superiority of race.”

The same Churchill whose actions caused the deaths of 4.3 milliion people in the Bengal famine.

History has been far too kind to Churchill, a deeply flawed leader who surrounded himself with a splendid bodyguard of myths"

Very different times which thankfully do not exist today.

Mum mother was when alive a lesbian who had to hide away because of the stigma in the 50,s 60,s and 70,s but thankfully in these different times we live in today my daughter can be as gay as she likes with little stigma attached.

Very different times when Winston was alive and I thank him for his service but acknowledge his many many flaws by today’s standards.

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By *lack UhuruMan
over a year ago

Leeds

I'll be honest. I'm British and I haven't heard of any of these people who have statues dedicated to them. So maybe we should keep them in place, with plaques detailing their full life history, and individuals can form their own opinions which may include how we've moved on since the days of slavery. But I can understand young British people who have lived far more diversive lives would be ashamed enough to pull it down

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Statues are a way to pay tribute to someone, not to record history. If you think otherwise, let's get some statues of Hitler and Pol Pot up around Britain, for the history?

Deciding we'd rather not pay tribute to someone anymore and taking down their statue erases nothing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Statues are a way to pay tribute to someone, not to record history. If you think otherwise, let's get some statues of Hitler and Pol Pot up around Britain, for the history?

Deciding we'd rather not pay tribute to someone anymore and taking down their statue erases nothing. "

Fair comment

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By *ob Carpe DiemMan
over a year ago

Torquay

Rome was built on slavery, where does it end, removing all statues of Roman emperors?

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By *Wman15Man
over a year ago

Portsmouth

Let's not forget that there will also be things that we all do today that may be deemed unacceptable 50 years hence

Times change

I lived through the bitter miners strike of 1984/5 with very questionable behaviour on both sides yet now generation of power through the burning of fossil fuels has been demonized and - in the UK at least- has almost ended

Clearly not the same in any shape or form as racism, but the battles fought 35 years ago were very bitter and left deep divisions for years

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By *2000ManMan
over a year ago

Worthing

If people want the statues removed, create a written petition to the council not cause havoc, waste police time and potentially spread the virus. Personally the war memorial and related (cenotaph, churchill etc) should stay as a reminder that people gave their lives so we live in peace today.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If we rewrite history do we forget its lessons?

For those who claim that statutes need to be contextualised they already have a context. The history and cultural mores of the eras in which those individuals lived.

And when the next wave of rewriting the past comes along, who decides what is the appropriate context to apply then?

Orwell would have loved the irony of recent events....

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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago

There and to the left a bit

"If we rewrite history do we forget its lessons?

For those who claim that statutes need to be contextualised they already have a context. The history and cultural mores of the eras in which those individuals lived.

And when the next wave of rewriting the past comes along, who decides what is the appropriate context to apply then?

Orwell would have loved the irony of recent events...."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

all the pyramids built by slaves that will take a while

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"I'm going to kick this off, by saying I did. Then I changed my mind.

So my point. Slavery was/is evil.(yes it still exists.) Its barbarity cannot be excused.

But. Does involvement destroy any good that that person has done?

My conclusion when I thought about it was really simple. Would the rev. Martin Luther King approve? And you know what? I don't think he would.

Churchill didnt defeat the biggest racist ever.

He played a big part but the combined total of Britain,america and russia amongst others defeated nazism.

Churchill was a colonialist and was a product of his age with heavily racist views (look at the bengali massacre)

Like most people he wasnt good or evil he shades of grey.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes, some should be museum pieces, not idolised

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Airbrushing history is not an answer, if Churchill was born 20 or 30 years ago his views on race would probably be very different, we are all the product of our times to some extent. Cecil Rhodes is demonized for being a colonial but that was viewed as a good thing in his day. Leave the statues but add a plaque explaining the true history seems a better idea to me."

Most sensible suggestion I'd say.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oliver Cromwell. One mans hero, another mans war criminal !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Every generation who inherits the Earth blames the previous generation for all the problems they have inherited.

Every previous generation looks on at the new generation as being spoiled and ungrateful at the work they have done to get it to where it is from the generation that they inherited it from.

This will continue indefinitely. Change takes time and generations of work. The current generation's children will bemoan the fact that we still haven't created a world where footballers can come out as gay or that Harry Potter books are still being sold despite J K Rowling's anti-trans tweets.

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By *etite_delightWoman
over a year ago

BunnyLand

Regardless of the reason, vandalism and rioting are senseless , careless and ignorant acts. You can’t go around and harm things in the country you live in! simple is that

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By *ensual 2Couple
over a year ago

Blackpool

Seems to be mob rule mentality ....their should be another way to maybe remove some over time ....but where do you draw the line on all these things ....you cant change history as some said Museums may be the way forward .....

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Presumably those who are against statues of slave traders being removed also think it was wrong that Jimmy Saville's statue was taken down back in 2012?

If you can remember - I guess without that history, no one remembers who he is anymore...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I disagree, because ultimately where do we stop? Do we pull down buildings that were funded or built on ill deeds?

Unfortunately racism was prevalent in that time period for slave owners and traders to gain prominence. This then also begs the questions do we destroy everything from the time period? Do we upturn graves?

No, It’s lunacy and furthermore has polarised the country, causing more social and racial divisiveness than we had previously. This is rather defeatist in my opinion and sad to see, educate and progress not regress.

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By *appyhumper123Man
over a year ago

hull

Not at all democratically vote to have them removed don't just RIP them down

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't approve, if you go down that road you will end up erasing history

All kinds of bad things haunt our past but it's made us the people we are today

We need that history as a reminder to show us how we got to where we are today "

Agree,

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

"I disagree, because ultimately where do we stop? Do we pull down buildings that were funded or built on ill deeds?

But no one is saying 'we must remove all traces of slavery in all aspects of society', are they?

They're saying 'statues are for glorifying people, and let's not glorify slave traders'

Saying 'where will it end!' as justification for not doing something is called the slippery slope fallacy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Racism is not acceptable on any level.

I think the challenge we face is judging people in history through the lenses of today.

In medieval times it was acceptable to get married at the age of thirteen - does that mean we tear down medieval statues?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I disagree, because ultimately where do we stop? Do we pull down buildings that were funded or built on ill deeds?

But no one is saying 'we must remove all traces of slavery in all aspects of society', are they?

They're saying 'statues are for glorifying people, and let's not glorify slave traders'

Saying 'where will it end!' as justification for not doing something is called the slippery slope fallacy.

Buildings that were funded by such figures usually stand as a testament to their wealth and power at the time, it is usually in a bid to create a permanent legacy.

So by that very principle the buildings they have funded are a glorification of what they achieved. Shall we tear them down?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If people want the statues removed, create a written petition to the council not cause havoc, waste police time and potentially spread the virus. Personally the war memorial and related (cenotaph, churchill etc) should stay as a reminder that people gave their lives so we live in peace today."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Should we pull down the pyramids of Egypt build by slaves????

No not a chance ao why would people want to destroy Francis drake in plymouth???

The slave trade was wrong no question about it but it was part of history and alot of the people that took part in it didnt know any better as they was the times they lived in no different to the Egyptians or any other race over the centuries. Only in the last 100 years or so has human rights and slavery been abolished rightly so I might add but that is no reason to destroy history

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By *VineMan
over a year ago

The right place

In general I would not be in favour of this, it’s undemocratic and criminal behaviour. But in the case of Edward Colston’s statue in Bristol, the democratic process has appeared to fail. There has been widespread support for the removal of the statue for many years which has fallen on deaf ears. I would prefer for it to have been removed by the council and put in a museum.

Having said all of that the debate on the issue of pulling down statues has become a distraction from the real matter in hand which is the racism that exists right now in both this country and the US. Don’t let the media distract you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Even if its history was confirmed as something terrible Stonehenge would likely remain.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yep, I approve

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By *oirinMarkusCouple
over a year ago

West Midlands and West London

Yes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its how they have been temoved is my issue. Its vandalism. We all hate things but theres ways of going about it

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

It's good to keep everything focused on the Black Lives Matter message.

We don't need anything else that takes attention from this

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By *LOVEpinacoladasWoman
over a year ago

East Sussex

"In general I would not be in favour of this, it’s undemocratic and criminal behaviour. But in the case of Edward Colston’s statue in Bristol, the democratic process has appeared to fail. There has been widespread support for the removal of the statue for many years which has fallen on deaf ears. I would prefer for it to have been removed by the council and put in a museum.

All if this! Also, the removal has opened up a conversation about colonialism and the slave trade in this country. It's raised awareness of something that's not generally taught in schools - and perhaps opened some people's eyes to the dark side of our history.

Statues are put up to celebrate/honour individuals, not to educate. I'm all in favour of taking down those involved in such brutalism and putting them in museums. Or into the sea - which, tragically, is where many of the people slave traders trafficked were thrown.

(I'd add that structural racism in this country likely has some bearing on why the years of pleas to remove the Colston statue failed.)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thank you all for your openness as and honesty. I'm disappointed that there were so few responses from my black people but I can't control that.

In conclusion. Firstly. George was definitely no Saint and was heading to prison. But his crime certainly didn't justify his treatment or his death.

I certainly support the protest here because all my family have been victims of police abuse. That's 5 of us. Yet I don't have a criminal record and don't do drugs.

However the tearing down of statues shifts the focus to history. We can't change history. My concern is that by removing an unsavoury past we can then deny it happened. A bit like the Holocaust.

I haven't looked into Churchill's views or past. But he may have been a raging racist. But in my world he's still a national hero. But in answer to the main question of do bad deeds cast a shadow over the good deeds. My conclusion is it should be the other way round. The good deeds should outshine the bad deeds. If this is not the case then the statue should come down. But how do we judge. There is only one option. A plaque explaining with a link to a website for those who want to know more. Otherwise like many have highlighted there's a statue of some one many of us would not know or care about until someone tears it down in an act of thuggery whether that thuggery is motivated by good. It would still be an xt of thuggery.

Thank you all.

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By *heekyFlirtyCoupleCouple
over a year ago

Stockport

I think they should stay.

If people need Further explanation Regarding history and things that happened of their times then new placards to be put in place to further explain how things were and how things have and should change. Our streets are our museums....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont"

Many just like to jump on the latest bang wagon to try and out do each other as to who can be more WOKE than the rest of society.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

This..

Education is fundamental, teach the good and equally the bad that this nation has done previously..

Not hide the latter as it raises awkward questions..

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont

Many just like to jump on the latest bang wagon to try and out do each other as to who can be more WOKE than the rest of society. "

Sorry but in Bristol certainly there has been an ongoing debate and campaign to address the issue of that statue and the council were sitting on their hands dithering over how to word a plaque to give the full story of how he made his wealth..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No I dont, you cant just do what you want just cos you dont like it, why not before and why now? We cant remove something we dont like, it is so pc these days it is untrue, what is next, burning of history books and no teaching of slavery in schools? You cant wipe out history just cos you dont agree with it and take away programs like an episode in little britain, it is silly. I dont know who agreed to do that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hiding the mistakes of our past is a sure way to eventually repeat them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No I think it’s silly. I wouldn’t go as far as defend a statue with my life, but pulling down statues of significant figure heads of history just because they have ties to racism or slavery is pointless. Shall we start a petition to flatten the pyramids in Egypt? They were built by slaves wasn’t It?

In my opinion the main problem isn’t racism, there is a gang of very powerful families trying to play god, combined they own more than 85% of the worlds wealth and they think there are to many of us and want to cull the population and the planet for themselves.

You think I’m bad shit crazy? Search for the Georgia guidestones. A statue you probably haven’t heard of.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yeah sorry I got a bit carried away then and went of track, my phone was about to die, typing at million miles an hour like the mad man I am

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By *heekyFlirtyCoupleCouple
over a year ago

Stockport

They will be burning books next.....

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By *onderstuff73mMan
over a year ago

Brum

"How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont

I don't, certainly

But it's just mob mentality, and everyone egging everyone else on. Pathetic, really

Yep I agree,having said I probably walk past loads of statues and didn't even notice they're there"

It’s a debate that’s been going on in Bristol for decades. Schools have already changed their names, concert halls have agreed to rebrand this year, all of this has been discussed and decided on prior to the weekend’s events. But because it’s been debated on for decades and local people are frustrated at the lack of action by successive mayors and councils, this happened...

It’s fine to not know of local history, I don’t know anything about any other part of the country, so wouldnt dream of passing comment if I didn’t understand the cultural importance of something. Certainly not pathetic.

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By *onderstuff73mMan
over a year ago

Brum

By the way, I’m not saying it was the right or wrong thing to do....just that because someone in another part of the country hasn’t heard about something before, it doesn’t make it new or a fad.

This was the pinnacle of decades of debate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Better get rid of great wall of China.. Pyramids and roman roads. Plus many more...

Better on focusing changing the future..

If Rosa parks sat down to make a difference.. Why not lead by example.

Condone all violence n hate n abuse

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By *r TriomanMan
over a year ago

Chippenham Malmesbury area

I totally approve of this act. This is something that the authorities should have done decades ago; by leaving it up, Bristol Council (in the case of Colston) were just goading the public to take action.

I'm not talking about statues were there's an ancestral link to the slave trade but those, like Colston's statue where the person being glorified was directly involved with the imprisonment, exploitation and murder of tens of thousands of black children, women and men.

Colston (through his actions) quite clearly believed that black lives don't matter, infact, by using the blood-money he made from the slave trade and using it to benefit the predominately (if not exclusively) white people of Bristol, he sent a message saying that only white lives matter.

Leaving these statues up (the ones with a direct link to slavery, those celebrating people with the blood off slaves on their hands) is perverse. It allows many to be ignorant to what they represent; whilst those that know and see nothing wrong with them, It's reasonable to assume that some will consider them as an endorsement that black lives do not matter.

A thought for those that do not support this action: Volks Waggen provide jobs, wealth and transport across the entire world. Would you be happy for a statue of it's founding father to be erected at VW's base in Wolfsburg? After all, in starting this company his actions have had such a positive effect on so many lives. Of course, I'm talking about Adolf Hitler.

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By *m3232Man
over a year ago

maidenhead

History is history from where we came from to where we are.

Be the person that makes it rather than the person who complains about it.

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By *ob198XaMan
over a year ago

teleford

If you live in the UK it’s a fact that you are living on the back of national wealth made in no small part though occupations and slavery. If this bothers you there is no point just tearing down statues, you need to also give up all your own possessions and you own education and move elsewhere in the world. Our history is history, we can’t undo it but it must stand as a reminder of how we all need to be better people.

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By *elicatedelicateCouple
over a year ago

Southside

- A museum *remembers and educates* on history

- A statue in a street *honours and glorifies* them

Put it in a museum.

Having a slave trader statue in the street honours them. If you can’t see that as a problem, I can’t help you.

Also Just because you did significant good things next to being a slave trader Who destroyed lives doesn’t render it ok. Jimmy Saville did huge charity work too, so now I ask your question “ Does involvement destroy any good that that person has done? ” I think you at the minimum agree the answer is yes. Also I’m pretty sure we can agree it was more than involvement. Research research research.

on a street is a differe

"I'm going to kick this off, by saying I did. Then I changed my mind.

So my point. Slavery was/is evil.(yes it still exists.) Its barbarity cannot be excused.

But. Does involvement destroy any good that that person has done?

My conclusion when I thought about it was really simple. Would the rev. Martin Luther King approve? And you know what? I don't think he would.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unfortunately the important symbolism of taking down a statue in a deliberate act of marking a potentially transformational moment gets lost in the anger and rage, degenerating into vandalism and violence, that fuels ethnocentric tribal warfare.

I think the sooner that actions are taken to move some statues to museums, educational plaques put on roads And statues that should remain, new monuments erected that honour the pain caused by some of our historical actions and act as beacons on our way to a more inclusive, equitable social system, the better.

However there is much work that needs to be done in discerning appropriate ways that promote dialogue, compassionate conversation, mutual learning and increased levels of trust and collaboration.

These events along with the learning from the pandemic are valuable opportunities to move our society in a new direction. We can all play a part...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes of slave traders

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By *elicatedelicateCouple
over a year ago

Southside

The overwhelming majority of protest globally is peaceful though including the removal of those statues

"Unfortunately the important symbolism of taking down a statue in a deliberate act of marking a potentially transformational moment gets lost in the anger and rage, degenerating into vandalism and violence, that fuels ethnocentric tribal warfare.

However there is much work that needs to be done in discerning appropriate ways that promote dialogue, compassionate conversation, mutual learning and increased levels of trust and collaboration.

These events along with the learning from the pandemic are valuable opportunities to move our society in a new direction. We can all play a part..."

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By *rivingmanMan
over a year ago

Blackpool

The pyramids were built by slaves. Should they be demolished?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It’s typical of today’s social media driven politics of “let’s do something that is quick and makes us look good”.

Tearing down statues is quick and easy and gets the people responsible quick plaudits from those who approve.

It’s far easier to tear down statues that have no material effect on issues felt today than to challenge and change something happening right now and could really make a difference.

How about our politicians make a real effort to tackle the scourge of knife and gun crime that disproportionately affects young black men for example? The reason they won’t is because that is difficult, takes time and most likely controversial actions to solve whilst not win immediate praise.

Tear down a statue however and thousands of white, middle class hipsters will praise you for it

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By *elicatedelicateCouple
over a year ago

Southside

No a statue of an individual is way worse....because theyre glorifying individual leaders as heroes .......who are in fact vile humans who caused mass intensive suffering and drowning an entire race.

Are the pyramids perfect? No.

Are statues revelling leaders of the slave trade worse? Yes x 10000

They’re entirely different things

"The pyramids were built by slaves. Should they be demolished? "

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By *elicatedelicateCouple
over a year ago

Southside

Straight question that demands a straight answer

*Why wouldn’t you move a statue of a vile slave trader that inflicted serious damages on a race to a museum rather than celebrating them in a street”

Also

“Would you leave hitlers statue up”?

Specifics and no abstractions would be appreciated to improve answer quality.

"It’s typical of today’s social media driven politics of “let’s do something that is quick and makes us look good”.

Tearing down statues is quick and easy and gets the people responsible quick plaudits from those who approve.

It’s far easier to tear down statues that have no material effect on issues felt today than to challenge and change something happening right now and could really make a difference.

Tear down a statue however and thousands of white, middle class hipsters will praise you for it"

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By *andy2123Couple
over a year ago

Portsmouth

I just can't believe people are demonstrating when there a bloody deadly virus around, and there also shouting about black people are more vulnerable to it!!! Wtf, are these people real? This can wait until this is over for God's sake, do they know there killing there own people? So to me, there just as evil, as the people who did the slave trade, in the first place.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The overwhelming majority of protest globally is peaceful though including the removal of those statues

However there is much work that needs to be done in discerning appropriate ways that promote dialogue, compassionate conversation, mutual learning and increased levels of trust and collaboration.

These events along with the learning from the pandemic are valuable opportunities to move our society in a new direction. We can all play a part..."

I agree the majority of the protests were peaceful. In places it did degenerate and unfortunately the degeneration is what gets so much more attention. Posters on social media, at this moment, are stoking the fires of division at the same time as some are determining how to maintain law and order, while others are considering how to take timely, transformative action. The situation is very brittle, anxiety inducing for many, and chaotic nature of events are making it difficult to really understand how to respond effectively. That’s why I think some important steps need to be taken quickly to signal a pathway forward.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No expert on history, but Winston Churchill was born way after slavery was abolished.

But those that were slave owners should be torn down in my opinion, just because they've been there for a long time doesn't mean they should still be there.

So slave wise I think he was against it but definitely held racist views."

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By *reakfastCouple
over a year ago

Great Dunmow

There is so much historically wrong about the facts in OPs post that I now worry for all statues in the uk - what's next? Demands for having the captain mannering statue in thetford to be removed? What about the Eric morecambe statue?

Churchill must have been incredibly long lived to have owned slaves!

Nazi Germany did not think too highly of other races but it was mainly the Jews they were after, some blacks and Indians actually picked up arms for the german side.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We shouldn’t be tearing down our history, no matter how bleak or violent it was. They should serve as reminders of how far we’ve come. Historical revisionism is the first step on the road to authoritarianism.

And Churchill was a good 100 years after the Abolition Act (1833) OP

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By *reakfastCouple
over a year ago

Great Dunmow

I agree the majority of the protests were peaceful.

Hence the now infamous BBC headlines - peaceful protests in london - 27 police hurt!

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By *ab jamesMan
over a year ago

ribble valley

I think people are missing the point. Statues are art. Art should shock, please, make you happy/sad, anger you, but most of all, it should make people think. Tear down the statues and spoil other art? Remember, without a past, you don't have a future

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By *m3232Man
over a year ago

maidenhead

I agree the majority of the protests were peaceful.

Hence the now infamous BBC headlines - peaceful protests in london - 27 police hurt!"

They also missed 1000 dead in the next few months because these clowns broke lockdown and gave it to there brothers in protests Against a known criminal resisting arrest.

The protesters should wait and see what happens to the cops responsible for over doing the arrest.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It’s typical of today’s social media driven politics of “let’s do something that is quick and makes us look good”.

Tearing down statues is quick and easy and gets the people responsible quick plaudits from those who approve.

It’s far easier to tear down statues that have no material effect on issues felt today than to challenge and change something happening right now and could really make a difference.

Tear down a statue however and thousands of white, middle class hipsters will praise you for it"

I’m not sure our politicians have the wherewithal to take the kind of action needed, at least not without significant momentum from us. I agree the platform politics of social media is playing a huge role in what is happening now and gives people the power to convene.

It seems to me that it is the power to convene virtually, because convening physically at this time is high risk, that needs to be harnessed to take the kind of action that is needed.

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By *unkym34Man
over a year ago

London

Why would you tear down history makes no sense what so ever. History has got us where we are no matter how bleak or awful it is. With out the events in history our population and way of living would be a lot different. Education is the way forward. Should we close all museums??? Are we to suddenly remove these people from history and forget that they won wars, fought For education and opened university’s, opened hospitals. Should we not turn our agenda to the slavery that still happens across many countries today and use our energy to stop child slave labour. Educate and understand why cultures through out history have sold their own in to slavery and why that was wrong, educate about all forms of slavery across the globe from

Press gangs for the navy to those that was forced to build the pyramids. Destruction of statues is nothing but vandalism and a crime, asking for them to be removed rather than educate the good and bad is a crime against communities and intergration in general.

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By *uke OzadeMan
over a year ago

Ho Chi Minge City

Tearing down statues is lawless criminal behaviour. They were erected in honour of the charitable element these people did, not to glamourise their part in slave trading. Maybe they should go, but not at the hands of an angry mob. That’s just not civilised. And should the pyramids in Egypt be demolished because they were built by slaves? Just curious as to how far this needs to go.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Tearing down statues is lawless criminal behaviour. They were erected in honour of the charitable element these people did, not to glamourise their part in slave trading. Maybe they should go, but not at the hands of an angry mob. That’s just not civilised. And should the pyramids in Egypt be demolished because they were built by slaves? Just curious as to how far this needs to go....."

I agree that nothing should be dragged down by the public. Yes they were out up to honour someone who did something great but statues show people as great with no context of their history. Most statues are currently being reviewed and if they're not acceptable they will be removed by the owners ect. In terms of things like the pyramids and the coliseum they aren't symbols of one great person. We know they were built by slaves and they stand to represent a civilization

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By *amissCouple
over a year ago

chelmsford

They are boarding up the cenotaph in London before the protests this weekend...

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By *uke OzadeMan
over a year ago

Ho Chi Minge City

Would you agree with the suggestion of plaques being fitted to the base to highlight the context of where and how they acquired their wealth so it’s clear to everyone to see?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Would you agree with the suggestion of plaques being fitted to the base to highlight the context of where and how they acquired their wealth so it’s clear to everyone to see? "

Yeah absolutely. Some do need to be removed and put in a museum but that's not mine or any member of the public's call. In regards to the statue torn down in Bristol we did petitions for over the last 10 years to have a plague added that was blocked by certain councilmen who in their words allow the great merchant to be respected for his contributions without any tarnish.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They are boarding up the cenotaph in London before the protests this weekend..."

It's a very good idea for both sides of this. No one from the protest can vandalise and so they're shouldn't be any negatives about that topic in regards of the protest

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By *amissCouple
over a year ago

chelmsford

"They are boarding up the cenotaph in London before the protests this weekend...

It's a very good idea for both sides of this. No one from the protest can vandalise and so they're shouldn't be any negatives about that topic in regards of the protest"

Sad times though

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By *uke OzadeMan
over a year ago

Ho Chi Minge City

Would you agree with the suggestion of plaques being fitted to the base to highlight the context of where and how they acquired their wealth so it’s clear to everyone to see?

Much respect, I totally agree with you. I think as a result of that incident the reviews will now be taken in a much fairer context that do not favour the personal views of ageing councilmen. History cannot be changed but it can certainly be clarified in public exhibits such as statues and museums and the legacy of their charitable foundations can continue doing good for the future.

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By *edGrayCouple
over a year ago

Swindon

As a white man growing up in the 70's rascisum was everywhere. To a large degree it still is today although society had become more tolerant. It's events like this that get both sides of the argument fired up and people start to devide into both camps. I feel without the statue being torn down people's awareness of racial inequality would be left on the back burner and not be addressed and discussed by the powers that control us. The flip side to this is that detracts from what really needs to be done to erase racial inequality and that is to acknowledge our slavery and colonial past and to educate our younger generation so that they can change their attitude towards ethnic minorities who have helped to build and contribute to this great country of ours.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Auschwitz ????......Israel should go and flatten it ........But leaving it up .. serves as a reminder how bad the jews have had it and what a lunatic Hitler and co were ..... You can’t change history.. you have to learn from it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Auschwitz ????......Israel should go and flatten it ........But leaving it up .. serves as a reminder how bad the jews have had it and what a lunatic Hitler and co were ..... You can’t change history.. you have to learn from it "

I agree. Leaving monuments is important. Having statues with no information just glorifies a person without context. Just remember a statue is used to honour and immortalise someone great. If they weren't completely great it should say or it should be removed

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By *educedWoman
over a year ago

Birmingham

Debates about statues suggest Britain is once again going to miss the opportunity to actually engage meaningfully on the issue of race, racism and equality.

Why have statues become the focus?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Debates about statues suggest Britain is once again going to miss the opportunity to actually engage meaningfully on the issue of race, racism and equality.

Why have statues become the focus?

It's the main outrage that people are focused on at the moment. It's good that debates on racism are being talked about at all when many didn't see a problem.

But yes we need to stay on topic generally. There are many posts about racism so I'm glad it isn't just about the statues

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

The whole problem with these statues has been the narrative surrounding them, written from a British perspective and glorifying what Britain has done not only at home but also abroad in terms of the empire. Europe's history isn't any better.

British history is horrific, raided the world for greed.

Exchanged opium for tea in China causing a drug addicted country.

Went to US & committed mass genocide amongst the natives for greed. USA is still greed driven & still behaving the same just in different manners like passing laws to prevent the protesting oil lines on their land & blowing up scared lands.

Canada up until the 90's took native kids into schools to "unteach" their native ways to Christian ones, sex abuse, abuse & complete destruction of these people still living with the effects today. Women go missing & don't get investigated.

Australia - where we sent prisoners & they destroyed indigenous culture

China are doing the same with their Muslim citizens right now!

European leaders sitting with a map of Africa & a pen deciding up nations with no regards for the people in them - for nothing but greed! Just look at DRC & diamonds (a feeking rock!) Pure greed driven, this country is still in turmoil today.

India - well we did that there too.

Spanish took out the Aztecs and Mayans.

Irish/Scotland has had many issues with England in the past including poor folk being sold/taken into slavery, whilst others of the same society were slave traders themselves.

Slavery is alive & well in today's society, largely in the sex trade but also in other areas, there was a group of 10 women living in one room who were sent out to work & had wages taken from them. Living in squalor, fear and near starving, that was 3 years ago they found them.

Many raw materials like cobalt, sulphur, diamonds, timber etc are still involved in slave trades and big business buys from them because they don't trace the who supply chain back to source therefore most of the modern stuff we want & buy is indirectly linked to slavery. We also like to make our plastic waste "disappear" to 3rd world countries.

Many illegal migrants become modern day slaves because they can't find legitimate work whilst awaiting asylum, get given buttons to live on & employers take the absolute mince in these situations because folk feel the can't seek help.

Glasgow was doing a tour before LD giving the true history of the city & it's slaver past to educate - I learned nothing about it in school.

At the end of all this the root cause is greed & ignorance.

Now anyone who understands climate change & it's issues are screaming for indigenous knowledge of the land and water that is at risk of dying out & being lost with devastating effects of the world being left to capitalism.

The Egyptians did have slaves but not on the masses of what many think, pyramids were built by skilled paid workers (can tell from tombs & standard of living), They also knew no person was entirely good or bad & that their heart (where soul lives) would be weight by Ma'at goddess of justice, balance etc against a feather of truth, if the heart wasn't balanced they would be eaten by a demon & not pass into the afterlife.....so like all other religions it was rules to be a good person or go to hell.

There's so much more but I'll finish now.

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By *amescoupleCouple
over a year ago

north walsham

Depends on the statue.

Some are integral so the British nation and its history. Some are not so much.

But what gets my goat are the people hanging off and trying to deface the war memorials. That’s a step too far for me. Those names on those memorial are people who gave their lives so the protesters could protest and it sickens me to see the disrespect shown.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The whole problem with these statues has been the narrative surrounding them, written from a British perspective and glorifying what Britain has done not only at home but also abroad in terms of the empire. Europe's history isn't any better.

British history is horrific, raided the world for greed.

Exchanged opium for tea in China causing a drug addicted country.

Australia - where we sent prisoners & they destroyed indigenous culture

China are doing the same with their Muslim citizens right now!

India - well we did that there too.

Spanish took out the Aztecs and Mayans.

Irish/Scotland has had many issues with England in the past including poor folk being sold/taken into slavery, whilst others of the same society were slave traders themselves.

Glasgow was doing a tour before LD giving the true history of the city & it's slaver past to educate - I learned nothing about it in school.

At the end of all this the root cause is greed & ignorance.

There's so much more but I'll finish now. "
great post

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Peaceful protests are the way forward, I agree they should be in museums.

We have to make sure we are educating the next generations, I've got my first grandchild coming soon and she will grow up with Black Lives Matter and Me Too Movement.

Nothing like this when I was growing up.

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By *amissCouple
over a year ago

chelmsford

"Depends on the statue.

Some are integral so the British nation and its history. Some are not so much.

Well said

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

British history is horrific, raided the world for greed.

Exchanged opium for tea in China causing a drug addicted country.

Australia - where we sent prisoners & they destroyed indigenous culture

China are doing the same with their Muslim citizens right now!

India - well we did that there too.

Spanish took out the Aztecs and Mayans.

Irish/Scotland has had many issues with England in the past including poor folk being sold/taken into slavery, whilst others of the same society were slave traders themselves.

Glasgow was doing a tour before LD giving the true history of the city & it's slaver past to educate - I learned nothing about it in school.

At the end of all this the root cause is greed & ignorance.

There's so much more but I'll finish now. great post

Agree

good post

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don’t approve of tearing down a statue - but the Colston one (and others) should have been removed to museum/archives years ago.

Until last week, most of us walked straight past statues and pigeons shat on them. I still don’t think they have any relevance to our modern life other than being decorative.

Suddenly, a growing percentage of people seem to be either worshipping, or taking offence at statues. Neither is healthy, in my opinion.

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By *reya73Woman
over a year ago

Whitley Bay

Get them down. Statues are an acknowledgement of the person, a tribute to their life and causes..if that person is also symbolic of atrocity and suffering.. If members of our community are disturbed by them, we need to listen and take them down.

What are we still not listening?? The people who want them down want them down for a very good reason. I think it's the very least we can do.

The community had been trying to get the statue in Bristol taken down through the council channels for a while to no avail.

My heart leapt when I saw it removed and that the police chose not intervene. That to me, is something to celebrate.

If it makes people uncomfortable to see passionate action and solidarity for the support of human rights .. perhaps they could try and imagine how uncomfortable it must be to live in a society where the powers want to bicker to keep historical statues which symbolise years and years of oppression and violence against your ancestors.

Give them a place in museums.

We can't erase history but we can build a new one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

To be honest it wouldn't alter my life if they are up or down, I'm not that bothered

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why aren't the people that are pulling down statues not screaming for the union Jack to be replaced that's a proper symbol of oppression, slavery and genocide so maybe it's time to replace the butchers apron.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Peaceful protests are the way forward, I agree they should be in museums.

We have to make sure we are educating the next generations, I've got my first grandchild coming soon and she will grow up with Black Lives Matter and Me Too Movement.

Nothing like this when I was growing up. "

It's wonderful, isn't it? Growing movement for racial equality. Accountability for abusers and support for the abused. A changing world where the oppressors are left weeping impotent tears and confusing censorship and criticism. An exciting challenging hopeful time.

It's incredible

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Finally the voice of reason. Thank you sir! Completely agree!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Get them down. Statues are an acknowledgement of the person, a tribute to their life and causes..if that person is also symbolic of atrocity and suffering.. If members of our community are disturbed by them, we need to listen and take them down.

What are we still not listening?? The people who want them down want them down for a very good reason. I think it's the very least we can do.

The community had been trying to get the statue in Bristol taken down through the council channels for a while to no avail.

My heart leapt when I saw it removed and that the police chose not intervene. That to me, is something to celebrate.

Give them a place in museums.

We can't erase history but we can build a new one.

This too. Well said and completely agree.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was hoping the statue would crush or drown the idiots.

The irony would outweigh their death.

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By *m3232Man
over a year ago

maidenhead

"Debates about statues suggest Britain is once again going to miss the opportunity to actually engage meaningfully on the issue of race, racism and equality.

Why have statues become the focus?

Myself I don’t believe there is racism it is all about what you see of yourself success is hard work. Don’t be lazy or fail and not get back up and then blame everyone else that it’s you colour that caused your problems.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We can't erase history...only learn from it.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Either tear none down or the lot down and fuck putting them in a museum. What was once free they will charge you to see...

Capitalist bastards ..

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By *m3232Man
over a year ago

maidenhead

We are in lockdown we should not be outside in mass gatherings this is fact.

This shit can wait until we are allowed out legally the fact of the matter is these clowns are rebelling and will cause more deaths with Covid-19.

To all of you wanting to complain don’t be a fucking idiot.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

"We are in lockdown we should not be outside in mass gatherings this is fact.

This shit can wait until we are allowed out legally the fact of the matter is these clowns are rebelling and will cause more deaths with Covid-19.

To all of you wanting to complain don’t be a fucking idiot. "

Bizarre that while they discuss whether 1 metre or 2 metres is a safer distance to reopen the hospitality industry that people choose to gather in large numbers then shame on them. If it causes a spike then we know that BAME are affected disproportionately..

Oh the irony...

And if anyone mentions packed beaches... They were even bigger Morons

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"I think tearing down statues is vandalism.

I hope I’ve worded everything right and not caused any offence... it’s so hard to convey tone in a typed message! "

Removing statues does not erase our past. History exists without memorialising or celebrating people who were evil.

Statues are not history, they are celebratory memorials.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I think tearing down statues is vandalism.

I hope I’ve worded everything right and not caused any offence... it’s so hard to convey tone in a typed message!

Removing statues does not erase our past. History exists without memorialising or celebrating people who were evil.

Statues are not history, they are celebratory memorials."

History is an ongoing discourse about our past, which has been greatly enhanced by the removal of these statues. We've destroyed far greater material culture for far less.

History is in action right now with these discussions. It's being shaped and enhanced. It's wonderful.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"I think tearing down statues is vandalism.

I hope I’ve worded everything right and not caused any offence... it’s so hard to convey tone in a typed message!

Removing statues does not erase our past. History exists without memorialising or celebrating people who were evil.

Statues are not history, they are celebratory memorials.

History is an ongoing discourse about our past, which has been greatly enhanced by the removal of these statues. We've destroyed far greater material culture for far less.

History is in action right now with these discussions. It's being shaped and enhanced. It's wonderful."

Absolutely.

It’s also a perfect illustration of the power of direct action.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We are in lockdown we should not be outside in mass gatherings this is fact.

This shit can wait until we are allowed out legally the fact of the matter is these clowns are rebelling and will cause more deaths with Covid-19.

To all of you wanting to complain don’t be a fucking idiot.

Oh the irony...

And if anyone mentions packed beaches... They were even bigger Morons

Do you work for fox news? You seem to spout a lot of right wing bile on the forums?

Far from it... Common sense..

I class the extreme right and the extreme left in the same play... Both as bad as each other... Extremism is there to be mocked and challenged "

You're defending Donald Trump as a great guy and fantastic president on another thread. If he's not extreme right, I dread to think what is.

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

To answer the original question, I'm glad that the statue in Bristol was pulled down because it's got people talking about historic racism and abuse and it's also got more people to.understand about our bloody history. It was a powerful statement and certainly grabbed much attention.

However I disagree with tearing down more statues and airbrushing history. I believe that they should remain in place with new plaques and signs to educate us about where we have come from and how we got to this point. I think that when you start erasing history people forget it and ignore it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

1.25 million white slaves estimated over the last few hundred years...yet they never get a mention...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"1.25 million white slaves estimated over the last few hundred years...yet they never get a mention..."

They're not important

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"1.25 million white slaves estimated over the last few hundred years...yet they never get a mention..."

You’ve mentioned it - now have a crack at explaining why you think it’s relevant to the discussion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"1.25 million white slaves estimated over the last few hundred years...yet they never get a mention...

You’ve mentioned it - now have a crack at explaining why you think it’s relevant to the discussion."

Exactly this

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By *sGivesWoodWoman
over a year ago

ST. AUSTELL, CORNWALL

"No, statues should stay.

They should serve as a reminder of what times were. To get rid of them is the same as claiming it never happened in the first place "

This, and as a reminder that what they stand for must never happen again. We need to be reminded and learn by our mistakes. How are future generations supposed to learn if there is no history? I think things have gone to far the other way with the minority of people dictating what is acceptable and what is not nowadays. Things also need to be put in context, ie what was acceptable 300 or 400 years ago or even as little as 10 or 20 years ago we now know is not. Times change and people need to as well.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

I think a protestor was seriously hurt when a falling statue him him. This activity should be done by professionals and risk assessed and not by a baying mob. Same as the campaign to light candles in Windows for the NHS . Wonder how many fires will break out.

Safety Safety Safety.

Stay Safe Peoples

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No, statues should stay.

They should serve as a reminder of what times were. To get rid of them is the same as claiming it never happened in the first place

I agree. It should be the majority who decide these things. The issue is what does a statue actually symbolise? To most it's to honour someone as great but without context that is all the history people learn. Most people my age only knew Colston as a great merchant who provided a large amount of wealth to the city. If that's what people are learning then it's worse than not having it there. All of these statues need plaques with context or they need to be out in museums.

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"1.25 million white slaves estimated over the last few hundred years...yet they never get a mention..."

So how do you know about them if they're never mentioned?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Statues and street names are used to commemorate and celebrate departed individuals. Should we continue to celebrate those who's actions and behaviours were accepted in their time, but not today?

I think, as a nation we need to adopt a position on this and move forward accordingly. Allegedly, the statue in Bristol had been subject to numerous take down requests, politely, with out success. Then, a bit of public disorder and it's gone. I'm glad its gone, but would have preferred if society had taken it down by consent rather than protest.

We need to understand history, and learn from it. We also need to have the back bone to make the right moral choices.

We nations change sovereignty street names are often the first things to change, along with states and monument being removed. When public opinion, attitudes and standards change, should we not be just as fast to act?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Leave the statues up, its British history, our history, warts and all, it is pathetic pandering to vocal minorities, I am British and very proud of it, and its history, and that includes its empire. Great figures like general Gordon, sir Richard Burton, Hector mac Donald, Cecil rhodes, they weren't perfect, but who is. They probably want to remove Edward Colston and replace with a statue of David Lammy, someone who really loves this country lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"1.25 million white slaves estimated over the last few hundred years...yet they never get a mention...

So how do you know about them if they're never mentioned?"

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By *uboCouple
over a year ago

East kilbride

Leave them where they are. part of history.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"1.25 million white slaves estimated over the last few hundred years...yet they never get a mention...

So how do you know about them if they're never mentioned?"

Some people read a little deeper than the tabloid headlines?

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By *r TriomanMan
over a year ago

Chippenham Malmesbury area

I totally agree, removing statues doesn't wipe out history. There aren't any statues of Hitler yet everyone is aware of who he was and what he did; children are even taught about him in their history lessons.

Putting up a grand statue of someone like Colston and stating that here stands a great and good man is a corruption of history,it's propaganda.

It's the institutional racism that we have grown up with that allows people to think that removing statues to slave traders is vandalism; it's not, they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

There is still a massive negative impact on society from the actions of Colston and people like him so, no, their statue shouldn't have pride of place in our villages, towns and cities. Removing Them is just, those people that took down Colston are heroes not vandals!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I totally agree, removing statues doesn't wipe out history. There aren't any statues of Hitler yet everyone is aware of who he was and what he did; children are even taught about him in their history lessons.

Putting up a grand statue of someone like Colston and stating that here stands a great and good man is a corruption of history,it's propaganda.

It's the institutional racism that we have grown up with that allows people to think that removing statues to slave traders is vandalism; it's not, they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

I agree with you up until the last part about the people who did it being heroes. While I agree with the statue being taken down we can't just let people do this whenever and wherever they want. It will just lead into anarchy

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Putting up a grand statue of someone like Colston and stating that here stands a great and good man is a corruption of history,it's propaganda.

It's the institutional racism that we have grown up with that allows people to think that removing statues to slave traders is vandalism; it's not, they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

To late

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By *naswingdressWoman
over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"1.25 million white slaves estimated over the last few hundred years...yet they never get a mention...

So how do you know about them if they're never mentioned?

Some people read a little deeper than the tabloid headlines?

That sounds like they were mentioned somewhere. Shock.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Putting up a grand statue of someone like Colston and stating that here stands a great and good man is a corruption of history,it's propaganda.

It's the institutional racism that we have grown up with that allows people to think that removing statues to slave traders is vandalism; it's not, they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

To late"

Were nowhere near true anarchy. America is much closer

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They could put a statue up of Mary seacole a British Jamaican lady who was a peer of Florence nightingale and a great Britain of colour who supported the injured soldiers in the crimean war, she is very overlooked, in the shadow of Florence nightingale.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They could put a statue up of Mary seacole a British Jamaican lady who was a peer of Florence nightingale and a great Britain of colour who supported the injured soldiers in the crimean war, she is very overlooked, in the shadow of Florence nightingale. "

I'm not aware if this person bit sounds like someone worth honouring. Hopefully councils will open up discussions on the topic

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By *umpkinMan
over a year ago

near the sounds of the wimborne quarter jack!

"How come nobody has said anything about these statues ages ago? Why is everybody jumping on the bandwagon all of a sudden,most people didn't have clue who Edward colton was, probably still dont

……………………………………………... "

Agreed about the vast majority not knowing who or caring about who these people were and what they were about or what they achieved. Those that do "know" about them probably only know what they want to know and overlook other facts that make a whole lot of difference!

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By *reakfastCouple
over a year ago

Great Dunmow

She already has at least one already

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

I have wandered around countless cities looking and being photographed next to statues of people I have never heard of... Looking back.. can't see the point or worth of them...

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By *tephanjMan
over a year ago

Kettering

History is history you can't change it most of the statues are of people who have done great things for this country. They may have done nasty things but it's history. Leave the statues alone and never touch Winston Churchill

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By *0shadesOfFilthMan
over a year ago

nearby

Where are the boundaries of slavery

In 2020 clothes in Primark and elsewhere are made in poor countries by children in appalling conditions, transported across the world in diesel powered ships polluting the environment and purchased by people on credit cards at 30% interest.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

" How are future generations supposed to learn if there is no history? "

For about the hundredth time, statutes are to celebrate a person, not teach history.

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By *nimaginativeUsernameMan
over a year ago

Rochester, Kent

Perhaps they’ll put up a statue in the US of retired St Louis police Captain David Dorn, providing security for a pawnshop, and shot dead by one of the rioting protesters.

Apparently his was a Black Life that didn’t matter, and has been overlooked in favour of the violent criminal thug George Floyd who died after (allegedly

) committing yet another crime.

It seems some lives matter more than others.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" How are future generations supposed to learn if there is no history?

For about the hundredth time, statutes are to celebrate a person, not teach history. "

No, statues are a mark, a note of their contribution to the world, colston built hospitals and set up charities for Bristol ..... He did this by getting into a little wooden boat and sailing it across seas long before RNLI was on the scene, risking his butt every time ..... When it was perfectly legal to trade, he broke no laws or ethics at that time,

If a policeman knocked on your door and gave you a parking ticket because you parked on the road and you said there were no double yellow lines last week and he said, well new rules mate, your a criminal now.... Would that be fair... Not really.

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By *irth guyMan
over a year ago

Newcastle

Tearing down a statue doesn't change history. Things still happened, but I'd be happier to only have statues of people who are revered for doing good.

Jimmy Saville raised millions for charity, yet I don't see anyone calling for reminders of him to stay because he's part of history.

Refusing to amend things just because they're part of history is the most hollow argument ever. Everything is part of history doesn't mean we should be happy with monuments to people who were oppressors.

If you think we should be celebrating those who condoned slavery you're part of the problem.

When was the last time all these people who have suddenly become very precious about statues ever looked at one?

I'd tear down every single one that represents people associated with inherent wrong doing.

Yet more Facebook Billy Britain anger all over the place. Afraid to acknowledge our nation was a big part of the problem.

If we can have pride in people who did great things, soldiers and families who ensured world wars, equally we should be able to feel a lack of pride in those who caused problems.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Perhaps they’ll put up a statue in the US of retired St Louis police Captain David Dorn, providing security for a pawnshop, and shot dead by one of the rioting protesters.

Apparently his was a Black Life that didn’t matter, and has been overlooked in favour of the violent criminal thug George Floyd who died after (allegedly

) committing yet another crime.

It seems some lives matter more than others. "

All your doing is trying to divide people. We don't know who killed that poor man but I hope they are punished. The main difference was that the on duty policeman killed someone (like many others before him) and without this protest would've got away with it. This is about how black people are treated unfairly not point scoring so if you want to talk about who's treated unfairly I'd recommend you go watch some videos on the police brutality towards everyone in the US

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