FabSwingers.com forum: Would you hire someone with a conviction?

By *Sparkie. OP Man
over a year ago

Ratoath

After looking for the right person for an office role recently a CV came in that caught my eye, it was top class, ticked all the right boxes.

After the person started, I discovered the person had a very recent court conviction for harassing another business.

The harassment consisted of sending hate mail, threatening letters and parcels with certain objects in the parcel to cause fear.

The offender and injured party didnt know one another and there was no motive or excuse put forward for the abuse in court.

This person is on probation currently with me, hire or fire, answers on a postcard.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Did the person detail all this on their application?

I am not the business owner where I work(so my risk is far less) but do have a say in recruitment we have hired people with convictions in the past and they work out at about the same rate as people without.

We need all staff to be garda vetted so.some convictions wpuld automatically rule them out

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By *Sparkie. OP Man
over a year ago

Ratoath

No, they didnt detail it, found out by accident, basically I googled the person, found nothing, then the person left their bank card on the desk, had a different surname so I googled that name, picture in paper matched person

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No, they didnt detail it, found out by accident, basically I googled the person, found nothing, then the person left their bank card on the desk, had a different surname so I googled that name, picture in paper matched person"

Oh you are on very shakey ground there.

In the recruitment process was he catagorically asked about previous convictions?

If not you would have no right to end or extent the probabtion period on that grounds. Im not an expert just from previous legal and IBEC advise

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So they changed their name on their cv? Surely this could be viewed as being deceitful? Not a great start to a relationship that undoubtedly requires trust?

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By *andytownMan
over a year ago

Gods Own Country

Fcek me they make them politicians and onto policing board members now!!!!

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By *affa31Woman
over a year ago

Galway

It would depend on the conviction and the level of risk that that conviction brings to your business.

A newspaper article is never going to tell you the full story so I’d be wary of using that as your only deciding factor.

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By *Sparkie. OP Man
over a year ago

Ratoath

I'm not sure if the name was changed purposely, obviously I cant ask, could be a number of reasons, parents slip up, could be either parents surname etc

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So they changed their name on their cv? Surely this could be viewed as being deceitful? Not a great start to a relationship that undoubtedly requires trust? "

You cant just change your name on a cv any business following correct legal structure will require an ID, bank details etc.....

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By *Sparkie. OP Man
over a year ago

Ratoath

"It would depend on the conviction and the level of risk that that conviction brings to your business.

A newspaper article is never going to tell you the full story so I’d be wary of using that as your only deciding factor. "

The newspaper article is pretty legit, it detailed the facts of the case and the outcome

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By *Sparkie. OP Man
over a year ago

Ratoath

The person in question is female so a marriage break up might explain the name change,then again it may not, week one is over, probation period is 12 weeks

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By *affa31Woman
over a year ago

Galway

"The person in question is female so a marriage break up might explain the name change,then again it may not, week one is over, probation period is 12 weeks"

Does the name on the cv match the ID and bank account details that she gave you for payroll?

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By *mokey and the bandit 1Couple
over a year ago

Dublin

"After looking for the right person for an office role recently a CV came in that caught my eye, it was top class, ticked all the right boxes.

After the person started, I discovered the person had a very recent court conviction for harassing another business.

The harassment consisted of sending hate mail, threatening letters and parcels with certain objects in the parcel to cause fear.

The offender and injured party didnt know one another and there was no motive or excuse put forward for the abuse in court.

This person is on probation currently with me, hire or fire, answers on a postcard."

Psych evaluation.

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By *ryst In IsoldeWoman
over a year ago

your imagination

I could give you my personal opinion and gut feeling OP, but in the world of business they won't mean anything, as we are held to a legal standard. As an employer I would look at how they are performing now in their current role and interacting with their colleagues, clients, etc., and if I have no reason for concern, I would let them complete their probation before making a decision.

However.... In order to eventually make that decision as a fully informed one, I would also be getting professional legal advice, because leaving my own personal opinions aside, an employee's actions, past or present, may impact my business. People don't always see the difference between the actions of an individual and those of the organisation they represent, and they can reflect badly. Just as people can be judged on their friends or associations, so can businesses, and while some may applaud you for giving someone a second chance, others may take their business elsewhere, and although it would be lovely to be in the position to say 'my business, my choice and the ones who don't like it can just suck it up', you have a legal responsibility to your other employees and customers to ensure that their jobs or financial commitments aren't jeopardised by you taking a particular stand.

It's a shit situation OP. Good luck with whatever you decide.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 20/10/19 11:38:21]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 20/10/19 11:38:18]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As a Fire Chief I have hired people with convictions but it depends on what a vibe I have gotten off the person before and during an interview.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Depends on the conviction

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By *ara198Woman
over a year ago

maynooth

It's complex op. They are hired now so you will have to judge them over the next ten weeks on their work ethic. If at the end of this time you are not convinced that they are the right fit with the business then you can find a way of not renewing the contract of course. Or if your fears are still there, which would be understandable given the nature of what they did, you can also not renew the contract. And perhaps add the question about convictions in future. We ask that question and we also carry out fill Garda vetting and we do a detailed on line search and we tell them this too. Best of luck

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By *affa31Woman
over a year ago

Galway

Garda vetting can only be done if it’s relevant work so not always appropriate

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you fire her now you run the risk of her doing the exact same to your bussiness as she done previously. I think legally you would have to leave her finish the 12 week's probation unless you have other ground's to fire her.

If she purposely gave you the wrong surname in order to hide the conviction, that could be one. In the meantime could you contact the previous business owner and try to get some more information before making a decision.

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By *eralt80Man
over a year ago

cork

As mentioned above seek legal advice and don’t do anything rash.

An ex employee of mine nearly ruined my business by spreading false rumours just to cover their own personal problems. I was livid when I found out but when I talked to my solicitor they told me that it still wasn’t a firing offence.

Employment law can be a mine field.

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

Depends on the contract they signed, and the quality of legal advice. One company could kick her right out the door and another wouldnt be able to touch her.

One company she would get 150k off them if they sacked her, another she would have to pay them 150k.

Its a minefield because contracts need to be tested in law, so even something written in black and white, clear as day, can be thrown out by a judge in the EU.

There is a reason contract lawyers wear 50 grand watches.

Also I would employ someone with a conviction. Depending on the conviction. Harassing a company is worrying, it would put me off more than d*unken disorderly when 19 etc.

I found out one of my best friends when I was living abroad had been in Jail for murdering someone with his bare hands, but i trusted him with life.

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By *osmicGateMan
over a year ago

louth

Give her a chance if she starts playing up then you have ammunition to get rid of her

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

"Give her a chance if she starts playing up then you have ammunition to get rid of her

She already is playing up by telling lies to get the job.

Honest people lose jobs to people like her all the time.

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By *Sparkie. OP Man
over a year ago

Ratoath

"Depends on the contract they signed, and the quality of legal advice. One company could kick her right out the door and another wouldnt be able to touch her.

One company she would get 150k off them if they sacked her, another she would have to pay them 150k.

Its a minefield because contracts need to be tested in law, so even something written in black and white, clear as day, can be thrown out by a judge in the EU.

There is a reason contract lawyers wear 50 grand watches.

Also I would employ someone with a conviction. Depending on the conviction. Harassing a company is worrying, it would put me off more than d*unken disorderly when 19 etc.

I found out one of my best friends when I was living abroad had been in Jail for murdering someone with his bare hands, but i trusted him with life."

Personally shes for gate I think, someone comes to me with a d*unken disorderly charge I'd probably laugh, we were all guilty of that many's a night, this was a lengthy sustained attack on a stranger, I believe this person is a nut job as couldn't offer any excuse for the behaviour and if your born a monkey, you dont die a Zebra, their unlikely to change.

There are lots of people I'd hire with a conviction, if you've a d*unk n disorderly one your probably a bit a craic, if you've a speeding one, you'll probably be on time for work, if you've one for indecent exposure, your probably reading this lol.

But not this conviction, I think it screams psycho, correct me if I'm wrong.

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By *igBlondeDommeWoman
over a year ago

middle of nowhere

Three sides to every story. Yours, theirs and the truth. Maybe the person she was "harassing " was her ex? Someone that was harassing her and she was getting her own back. She didn't murder anyone....

You said she left her bank card ..... was she paying you for the interview?.

I use a different name to the one on my bank cards etc btw.

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

"Personally shes for gate I think, someone comes to me with a d*unken disorderly charge I'd probably laugh, we were all guilty of that many's a night, this was a lengthy sustained attack on a stranger, I believe this person is a nut job as couldn't offer any excuse for the behaviour and if your born a monkey, you dont die a Zebra, their unlikely to change.

But not this conviction, I think it screams psycho, correct me if I'm wrong."

I know a guy who has a conviction and I am 100% sure it helps get him jobs. I know he is honest about it and does get asked about it in interviews.

He has to take a deep breath and then tell them that he pissed in the letterbox of a cops door and the cop didnt see the funny side of it.

I think it makes him seem more human.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But not this conviction, I think it screams psycho, correct me if I'm wrong.

I know a guy who has a conviction and I am 100% sure it helps get him jobs. I know he is honest about it and does get asked about it in interviews.

He has to take a deep breath and then tell them that he pissed in the letterbox of a cops door and the cop didnt see the funny side of it.

I think it makes him seem more human."

There is a funny side to pissing into someones.letter box?

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

"There is a funny side to pissing into someones.letter box?"

No, he should be thrown off twitter and sacked for it and have it follow him around for the rest of his life. Its right up there with refusing to bake a cake for a gay person.

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By *unnyfookMan
over a year ago

Naas

I would, everyone needs a chance. whether it's a second one is irelivent

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Depends on ths conviction for me. Possesion for personal use is fairly minor but like aggravated burglary would be a deal breaker

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What channel is this on sounds like a good movie fictional but a good movie all the same.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The question you should actually be asking is ...am I happy with this person's work. If you are you have your answer. If not, are you just looking for an excuse to justify getting rid. If you feel the deception is relevant to their ability to do the job, or if it represents a conflict of interest, that's a different matter. Go with your gut.

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By *ebra LoungeCouple
over a year ago

Dublin

Depending what type of job it is, for some jobs like taking somebody out it would actually be considered an advantage

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By *ackandsashaCouple
over a year ago

West Dublin

I am all for giving someone a second chance.It's admirable when someone turns their life around.

But, as the incident in question was recent, I would let them go at the end of the probation. Why take a risk that could backfire very badly.For example, what if they do something that affects other employees detrimentally, and the other employee sue you for putting them at risk. It could even affect your job !

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

"Depends on ths conviction for me. Possesion for personal use is fairly minor but like aggravated burglary would be a deal breaker"

What if they did drugs on your time, and crashed heavy machinery into someone killing or injuring them badly. What will happen you for letting them away with a bit of personal use?

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By *marrisWoman
over a year ago

Cork

"So they changed their name on their cv? Surely this could be viewed as being deceitful? Not a great start to a relationship that undoubtedly requires trust? "

Interesting... lying from the start,a 2nd interview required and ask straight out about the name change etc...go with your instinct

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By *!nksgirlWoman
over a year ago

IRELAND

If you didn't ask specifically on an application form or in interview if they had any convictions you are in a spiders web my friend. as disciminatory law predicts you cannot sack someone for failing to disclose information you did not ask for. on the other hand, failing to disclose relative information to a prospective employer which may hinder your employability is negligent so if I were you, I would lawyer up & be prepared for any eventuality. however maybe this person has been convicted & learned their lesson & just needs someone to believe in them & maybe mentor them , help mould them into being the best employee you have ever had. afterall everyone makes mistakes & deserve a second chance. Just my opinion!

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By *antra MassageMan
over a year ago

South Side.

The question has to be asked, why your recruitment process doesn't ask applicants to reveal criminal convictions? But that's a matter for yourselves to consider. The nature of the offence would suggest to me that your new employee displays serious lack of judgement, and has acted in an appalling way. The gardai and the courts have come to the same conclusion. I would take legal advice on one course of action.. how to terminate her contract. How do you think your other employees, and your family would feel if they knew about her previous behaviour and conviction? It's a difficult and worrying situation for you, so share the burden with your solicitor... Of course, as the crime and conviction is a public matter you could also share it with all your other employee and see what happens!

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By *Sparkie. OP Man
over a year ago

Ratoath

I agree everyone makes mistakes, I also agree with second chances, I even got a few myself.

However, this was a sustained attack, over a long period of time with repeat offending and not just a one off attack but several over a year long campaign until the offender sent a larger parcel from a PO and was identified by CCTV.

I dont believe a second chance is warranted here.

People rarely change, if your born a monkey you wont die a Zebra.

The victim was an innocent woman, unknown to the offender, just a random attack with no known motive.

Nutjob I reckon, I should have had a coffee meet with her first like I do here to out the weirdos lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wow this is rough maybe all he wanted was a coffe machine in the staff room . I have previous convictions I always make them aware off before starting a job . And it never seems to bother them . They seem more intrested in what I did and why I did it they think it’s funny .

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By *Sparkie. OP Man
over a year ago

Ratoath

I guess it's not the conviction but what it's for that's more important

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It’s not like it’s an historical assault or drugs charge or something like that. It was business related and I’d see him as too much of a risk or liability.

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By *ustin-SiderMan
over a year ago

Belfast

"After looking for the right person for an office role recently a CV came in that caught my eye, it was top class, ticked all the right boxes."

If they were deceiving enough to not give their usual surname and not disclose the conviction then perhaps the rest of the CV is inaccurate too and she made it all up. Maybe her truthful CV isn't so accurate and maybe it wouldn't tick all the right boxes. Did you check out the authenticity of all the other stuff she wrote on the CV, or, qualifications, previous jobs or experience, etc?

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By *easingTimMan
over a year ago

Loughlinstown

"After looking for the right person for an office role recently a CV came in that caught my eye, it was top class, ticked all the right boxes.

After the person started, I discovered the person had a very recent court conviction for harassing another business.

The harassment consisted of sending hate mail, threatening letters and parcels with certain objects in the parcel to cause fear.

The offender and injured party didnt know one another and there was no motive or excuse put forward for the abuse in court.

This person is on probation currently with me, hire or fire, answers on a postcard."

--------------------------

What happens if your "lovely" new employee

is on FAB and is reading this????

Happy Halloween Op. Sleep well!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't envy anyone that has to employ people..it has to be the worst scenario ever...it's hard enough to keep ones own boat in the water without having to deal with everyone else's too and what they have the potential to bring to your table EVERY day ...and now a days with every legislation known to man there to protect them especially in Government jobs ,some you'd sack on the spot but ya can't even say boo to them or they'll have you up for bullying or harassment...so no thanks ...best of luck with what you have to deal with in whatever shape ,mean or form it's comes in..I'll just go in ..do what l gotta do and get the fuck outta dodge when the day ends and not have to think about it till the following morning...peace of mind ??... Absolutely.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan
over a year ago

Lucan

I have done in the past but I knew about his conviction in advance as he was upfront from the start. Honesty really is everything.

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

Second chances are great, and I would be for giving them, but not at the expense of someone who has no conviction and who is an equal match for the job.

ie, if you have a conviction and a great cv, then be prepared to work a lower paid job and earn your place again.

Most of the time second chances in Ireland are nothing like that, they are someones son, cousin. Like when Enda's nephew was caught stealing multiple times, his "second chance" was a fully paid scholarship to trinity.

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