FabSwingers.com forum: Repeal the 8th.

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Big news tonight. Referendum at the end of May.

I hope everyone gets off their asses to vote for this!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Big news tonight. Referendum at the end of May.

I hope everyone gets off their asses to vote for this!

At last ... it's been many years coming. I'll definitely be voting

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

voting for?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Certainly will be voting. The women of Ireland have a history of their rights being dictated by organisations such as the church. Time to give women the respect they deserve.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Certainly will be voting. The women of Ireland have a history of their rights being dictated by organisations such as the church. Time to give women the respect they deserve."

Hopefully the majority will have the same thinking as this!

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By *addy36Man
over a year ago

Mayo

I'll be voting, just not sure what way !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Certainly will be voting. The women of Ireland have a history of their rights being dictated by organisations such as the church. Time to give women the respect they deserve."

This is what I believe .. it's time to put women first

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"voting for?"

To repeal the 8th ammendment or not

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

will it be straight I agree to legalising abortion in Ireland or I agree under certain conditions

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Currently 60/40 in favour. I'm voting yes..anything to spite the miserable bastards in black on the pulpit

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

"Currently 60/40 in favour. I'm voting yes..anything to spite the miserable bastards in black on the pulpit"
I can picture it been very close when may comes around

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I'll be voting, just not sure what way !"

That’s fair enough.

You should google a few ladies experiences of what they’ve had to go through mentally, emotionally and physically whilst travelling to the UK from here. A few have documented every step. It might help.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Currently 60/40 in favour. I'm voting yes..anything to spite the miserable bastards in black on the pulpit"

There's still a large enough group that don't know that would make it a close call. Fingers crossed it goes with the repealers

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By *eductively_SweetWoman
over a year ago

wexford

its a womans right to do whats best for her.. whether ppl agree or not its easy to sit in judgement when ur not the one faced with with it. maybe less babys will be dumped if women woman have the right to abort..

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By *.ledgeMan
over a year ago

dublin.

Definitely voting...its been to long ..way to long being put on the long finger. Good forum post Boldgirl.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"its a womans right to do whats best for her.. whether ppl agree or not its easy to sit in judgement when ur not the one faced with with it. maybe less babys will be dumped if women woman have the right to abort.. "

Very true..

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By *addy36Man
over a year ago

Mayo

"I'll be voting, just not sure what way !

That’s fair enough.

Don't get me wrong I'm 100% in favour of women having a choice, I don't think anyone should have the right to tell another person what they can or can not do. My problem is with convience abortions, as in if someone is told that their baby might have a disability and they say ah it's ok I'll abort it just in case.

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By *longshottMan
over a year ago

Limerick

"I'll be voting, just not sure what way !

That’s fair enough.

I think that argument is being used to muddy the waters a bit. Let choice prevail and deal with the different situations through legislation as it happens.

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By *eductively_SweetWoman
over a year ago

wexford

"I'll be voting, just not sure what way !

That’s fair enough.

those ones will go to the UK and abort anyways.. why should all other women suffer for a few " convience" abortions wheres the logic in that ?

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By *safunwituMan
over a year ago

Enniscorthy

"Currently 60/40 in favour. I'm voting yes..anything to spite the miserable bastards in black on the pulpit"

It's one thing having poles, but when it comes to actually having the numbers voting, sadly it doesn't seem to be so clear cut.

Hopefully there is a good turn out and it is repealed, it's a disgrace that women have to go abroad or have died because it's still illegal here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I reckon it'll be a landslide in favour of choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 30/01/18 00:23:52]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'll be voting, just not sure what way !

That’s fair enough.

While everyone's opinion is valid I do find this argument very weak. A wonderful article in the sunday independent written by a father of a daughter whos got DS. why I don't want my daughter to believe the only reason she's here is because abortion is illegal in Ireland. Her life is worth so much more then that. Its an article that's worth a read and echos the feelings of alot of SN parents. He's sick of children with SN been used as fodder by the no campaign. It gives another perspective

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I reckon it'll be a landslide in favour of choice. "

I don't I think it'll be very close and I just hope that the yes campaign wins

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I reckon it'll be a landslide in favour of choice. "

I actually don't think it will be. It's already being presented by the church as a vote for or against the unborn child, not a vote for or against choice. I personally could never have had an abortion, it's just not for me, but I recognise the right of others to choose for themselves.

I think the older people will take the church's lead and vote against the choice to abort, even under very specific circumstances.

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By *eductively_SweetWoman
over a year ago

wexford

"I'll be voting, just not sure what way !

That’s fair enough.

end of the day it should be the right of the woman no matter what their reason. i personally wouldnt as ive seen a baby born at 20 wks and yes its a baby..

but its their body their choice. and as always the day of voting will be a shambles anyways.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I reckon it'll be a landslide in favour of choice.

I don't I think it'll be very close and I just hope that the yes campaign wins "

99% of women under 50 will vote for choice and a good amount over that age will too. I say that cause they're less likely to he religious. I think the majority of men overall will do the same. You'll have some old religious people to vote against and the odd person who thinks women will use it as contraception

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sad fact is an average of 28 womeon travelled from Laois to Uk for abortions recently. Im not saying Im for or against but why the the hell did they have to go away to do this???

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I reckon it'll be a landslide in favour of choice.

I think the older people will take the church's lead and vote against the choice to abort, even under very specific circumstances. "

This i totally agree with and what exit polls are showing already. Dublin and urban areas a yes vote more rural areas a no vote is showing

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I reckon it'll be a landslide in favour of choice.

I think the older people will take the church's lead and vote against the choice to abort, even under very specific circumstances. "

What's the population break down? Surely there's more 18-50yr old not brainwashed by religion than there are people older than that who grew beat into believing. Young people will vote in this. Colleges will be canvassing for choice etc...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'll be voting, just not sure what way !

That’s fair enough.

end of the day it should be the right of the woman no matter what their reason. i personally wouldnt as ive seen a baby born at 20 wks and yes its a baby..

but its their body their choice. and as always the day of voting will be a shambles anyways. "

This is the key. . It's the woman's choice and we need to trust women to make a choice that's right for them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I reckon it'll be a landslide in favour of choice.

I think the older people will take the church's lead and vote against the choice to abort, even under very specific circumstances.

I don't actually know what the population breakdown is. I just think that older people will follow the church. Will colleges be finished up for the summer by the time the vote comes round? Don't forget a sizable amount of voters don't live where they'd be voting.

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By *eductively_SweetWoman
over a year ago

wexford

"I'll be voting, just not sure what way !

That’s fair enough.

end of the day it should be the right of the woman no matter what their reason. i personally wouldnt as ive seen a baby born at 20 wks and yes its a baby..

but its their body their choice. and as always the day of voting will be a shambles anyways.

This is the key. . It's the woman's choice and we need to trust women to make a choice that's right for them "

lets hope so

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By *inkywife1981Couple
over a year ago

A town near you

Both of us feel strongly that women should have a choice however neither of us could ever agree with abortion and most people we know feel the same way, so not sure about 99% of women under 50 being in favor

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By *tranTV/TS
over a year ago

City

"I'll be voting, just not sure what way !

That’s fair enough.

The life growing inside the person can not document their last hours alive, before being murdered, removed from their mum, and sold as research material, just because they had downsydrome or another abnormality.

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By *tranTV/TS
over a year ago

City

Pro-life people are sick of sex abuse victims used as fodder.

But on point of this guy.

His plea is emotional and not based on facts.

1 in 5 lives are ended in the UK with an abortion.

3 lives a day are ended because they have DS in the UK.

9 out of 10 women informed their child have DS end abort the baby.

This guy might make a passionate emotional plea that he would be the 1 in 10 that did not, but 9 other children that could be as loved as his, are murdered, removed from their mum and then sold as research material. That's simple fact, and it's something you have to agree with when you vote Yes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/6440705/Three-babies-aborted-every-day-due-to-Downs-syndrome.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37500189

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By *squaredCouple
over a year ago

Dublin/westmeath/kildare

To each their own but let people have a choice up to a certain point.

You might not want to do it but give others the option, it's better than people buying pills online & chancing that they are ok or having to travel.

I disagree with a female going in for the umteenth time. I think there should be a rule 2/3 done by state after that you pay. You can have an accident but by 2nd/3rd time it's no longer an accidental pregnancy.

Leo is right -not something I thought I'd say but we can't keep exporting or importing for this issue.

My huge worry is with brexit this option for irish woman could close & if Ireland don't pass this up to 12 weeks that woman will be focused to travel even further & then also deal with potential language barriers. 2ndly If it is past given irish current waiting times for things there could be issue with slow moving health system.

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By *onedbodMan
over a year ago

co Galway

Defo voting and voting Yes!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I reckon it'll be a landslide in favour of choice.

I think the older people will take the church's lead and vote against the choice to abort, even under very specific circumstances. "

I hope you’re wrong, but it wouldn’t surprise me if that’s the outcome.

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By *oghunter33Woman
over a year ago

on the hill NordWest of

"I reckon it'll be a landslide in favour of choice.

I think the older people will take the church's lead and vote against the choice to abort, even under very specific circumstances.

It's not going to be a clear sailing, not at all.

I'd say there's even a good percentage younger than 50 especially in rural Ireland that will vote against.

It is important that the 18 to 30 year olds get of their arses and come out en masse and vote, this change will mostly affect them and the coming generations.

It's time to stop the hypocrisy of exporting Irish abortions!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

1. It won’t be a landslide either way- it’s going to very tight as it’s such a divisive issue for people.

2. I disagree that the majority of 18-50 year old women will vote yes. A persons age may not dictate how they feel on the issue.

3. Anyone who uses abortion statistics will lose my attention on the issue- there’s no way of knowing the full picture and stats can be manipulated to whatever suits. There is so much that we don’t know that it’s impossible to rely to statistics with 100% confidence.

4. I haven’t seen a poll yet on the male/female vote preferences. It would be interesting to see this to see if the conventional wisdom holds- that a bigger majority of men would vote yes.

All that said, and depending on the wording of the referendum, I’ll likely vote yes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My only worry is the wording ...as in it will confuse people at the pollong booth.....i hope they keep it simple yes or no.....im going to get so involved with this one.....people dieing in our hospitals because of the church

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 30/01/18 08:44:26]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sorry about previous deletion, few typos.

Just read the news item in relation to the repelling of the amendment

'The devil is going to be in the detail'.

What legislation will the Health Minister put in place to take over from the amendment prior to the referendum is what's important.

That we think will decide the turnout.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'll be voting, just not sure what way !

That’s fair enough.

Completely agree. I've met many who at the time would have had an abortion if they could but because it wasn't an option they didn't. If you talk to them now they wouldn't change it even though it was hard and difficult. What that unwanted child has given them could never be quantified in any way and they'd never have thought of it at the time.

These are are the stories that also need to be told alongside those who have chosen to travel to England and terminated their pregnancies and suffered as a result as well.

It's not as clear cut as some would have us believe about purely woman's choice. (I'm thinking about another thread about man's right to terminate supporting an unwanted child) Lots of similarities are ringing yet the same ones in there who argued the man cannot have that choice are saying the opposite in this post).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"My only worry is the wording ...as in it will confuse people at the pollong booth.....i hope they keep it simple yes or no.....im going to get so involved with this one.....people dieing in our hospitals because of the church"

I'm bemused why people blame the church for getting pregnant. It seems the Irish love to blame the church for things which to be fair they should take personal responsibility for. The church as with the government or business or laws or something else seems to be the blame not the fact they chose to do something which resulted in some personal inconvenience (not lightly used but there are hundreds and hundreds of unwanted pregnancies which are treated that way)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The church does bear some responsibility through its teaching especially in 3rd world countries.

When people are put in a position to put religion above all other considerations then things do happen.

Perhaps if the church reviewed it's position on contraception etc there would be less demand for abortions etc.

Not saying that's a major cause but every little bit helps.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The church does bear some responsibility through its teaching especially in 3rd world countries.

When people are put in a position to put religion above all other considerations then things do happen.

Perhaps if the church reviewed it's position on contraception etc there would be less demand for abortions etc.

Not saying that's a major cause but every little bit helps."

We reliquish our own choices by giving them over to someone else. This with any group whether it be a church believe, (we've chosen to join them) or our employer or our master or submitting to bullying) we choose and allow that. Isn't that what makes us stand out as people... The ability to submit or reject. Making the right choice can only be done if we have it. The danger happens when we remove all forms of restraints and measures that are there to help us make choices. Without them our choices would actually be removed in as much that we'd never have to think about making that choice. It's only when we are faced with a crossroad that we actually choose to turn off the road were on. Those crossroads are blessings not curses.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Will be voting for sure.

Double check you are registered people. Especially if you have moved in the last year.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't think the state should pay for abortion. I don't think it should be crazy expensive but I don't think it should pay for it. To be honest I don't like abortion in the majority of cases and I'm completely against convenience abortions but don't think they're common. I'll vote for choice simple to protect the women in my life. Let them have the choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why are people pissed off with the Catholic Church5 ?

If you ignore the Magdalene Laundries, selling babies, widespread rayp of children, protecting & hiding of abusers I'm not sure. They are an utterly vile institution. For an organisation that preaches how to live life it is responsible for some of the worst crimes in the history of the state.

People don't blame the church for getting pregnant although it's views on contraception especially in Africa is hardly helpful with the spread of HIV. Where the church has influence over the state and the state in turn has legislation because of church influence people are more than entitled to feel a sense of disdain towards those who from the top down play musical chairs with the hiding of child abusers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There's a danger that this vote will be a vote against the church rather than a vote for or against choice. Some people are so anti church they'd almost vote to spite it. I hope when people come to have their say they do it with a clear head and for the right reasons.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why are people pissed off with the Catholic Church5 ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Abortion for convenience?

There's nothing convenient about it.

Abortion as a way of contraception after the fact, and on multiple occasions, well I'd think that person has a diminished mental capacity and needs serious medical intervention

What grinds my gears about this debate (well one of them) from the pro life side, is how much they care about the disabled while in the womb, but care very little about them once they're born! If they campaigned as much for services and support for the disabled then it might have some impact on people's choices.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There's a danger that this vote will be a vote against the church rather than a vote for or against choice. Some people are so anti church they'd almost vote ** to spite it. I hope when people come to have their say they do it with a clear head and for the right reasons. "

** they'd almost vote yes to spite it

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By *isdirtygirlWoman
over a year ago

Dublin

Why are people pissed off with the Catholic Church5 ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There's a danger that this vote will be a vote against the church rather than a vote for or against choice. Some people are so anti church they'd almost vote to spite it. I hope when people come to have their say they do it with a clear head and for the right reasons. "

You make a good point but we are all conditioned by experiences we go through in life. Some become very hardwired into the brain and it may indeed be a qualifying reason to vote a particular way. I'm not saying it is correct to do so. Just saying I can certainly understand in a highly emotive issue such as this why emotion can come into play.

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By *ustjimmykerryMan
over a year ago

Limerick

I think it's great that this referendum is going ahead, it's about time. I sometimes wish though that people would be as passionate about voting when a general election is called, that effects everyone but half the people won't vote. For the marriage referendum which was one of the greatest days in this country we have thousands returning from abroad to vote, I hope we see this again for the abortion referendum but also for future general and local elections.

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By *isdirtygirlWoman
over a year ago

Dublin

Ill be voting yes.I have my family and am quite content with my lot. The reason i'll be voting yes is for my girls and my future grandaughters. The choice will be given to them where, as grown women, theyll have the knowledge and support to do whats right for them. Its about time this country has decided to place trust in women, instead of them being treated like pariahs of society and caged like animals as they once were.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think it's great that this referendum is going ahead, it's about time. I sometimes wish though that people would be as passionate about voting when a general election is called, that effects everyone but half the people won't vote. For the marriage referendum which was one of the greatest days in this country we have thousands returning from abroad to vote, I hope we see this again for the abortion referendum but also for future general and local elections. "

Be honest there's not a single Irish politician that isn't a corrupt greedy fool or incompetent. I've never voted for a politician and never will. I honestly hate Irish establishments. Irish people are sneaky cunts when in power. Always look after family and friends (this is good when it's off you're own back but not when you're elected to make the best decisions for the country). Anyway that's off the point but i will never believe an Irish politician on anything and why are they earning so much but barely turn up to work?

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By *eductively_SweetWoman
over a year ago

wexford

"Ill be voting yes.I have my family and am quite content with my lot. The reason i'll be voting yes is for my girls and my future grandaughters. The choice will be given to them where, as grown women, theyll have the knowledge and support to do whats right for them. Its about time this country has decided to place trust in women, instead of them being treated like pariahs of society and caged like animals as they once were. "

exactly

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Nicely put!

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By *hocko87Man
over a year ago

dublin

I will be voting no . There is lot of stuff you can use to stop getting pregnant . Abortion is murder . End of story . No matter what you say .

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By *hocko87Man
over a year ago

dublin

We need to get rid of the nazi government to stop the next holocaust .

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By *etmebeurfantasyWoman
over a year ago

My town

"I will be voting no . There is lot of stuff you can use to stop getting pregnant . Abortion is murder . End of story . No matter what you say . "
omg alot of stuff to stop you getting pregnant!! Grow up Choco and think before you post....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I will be voting no . There is lot of stuff you can use to stop getting pregnant . Abortion is murder . End of story . No matter what you say . "

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. At what point for you does life begin ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wonderfully put. .. this is about giving women the basic right to choose and preventing others in authority doing the choosing for us

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We need to get rid of the nazi government to stop the next holocaust . "

I think terrible things like that happened when women were locked away, beaten , treated like animals and their babies forcibly removed from them. Giving women the power to choose is not the Holocaust but the brutality of the laundries most certainly was. There was no respect for human life there either the mother or the child.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why are people pissed off with the Catholic Church5 ?

I think that alot of blame is attributed to 'the church' because people are anti religion...It sounds you may be one of them. I'm interested in your thinking on what you raised about contraception and spread of hiv in Africa. Care to elaborate?

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By *eductively_SweetWoman
over a year ago

wexford

"I will be voting no . There is lot of stuff you can use to stop getting pregnant . Abortion is murder . End of story . No matter what you say . "

thats a very narrow minded view u have there. condoms split the pill doesnt always work and as for the coil u can and i know ppl that have got pregnant having the coil in... so its not as black and white as u think it is. so u think these women should not have a choice even thou they did their best to prevent it.. come on seriously..

dont u watch the news where women have had babies in toilets and dumped them or the ones that were murdered in their own homes. the list is endless there is a grey a area. and like i said before we dont have to agree with why ppl have them but they have a right to decide. im sure it dosent effect ur nights sleep either way.. abortions happen just like murders happen and always will

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Seriously... "caged like lions", "treated like pariahs". It's a wonder some aren't taken seriously when such sweeping generalisations are used. If an outsider were to read that they'd think women in Ireland had no voice, no choice and we're nothing more that animals.

I think sweeping comments like that have little value in discussion as it doesn't give much support for which ever cause it's trying to support. Not based upon fact but rather purely borne out of emotion. Not a good place to place any trust as emotion isn't a stable foundation to place trust. It changes like the wind from one day to the next.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Pro-life people are sick of sex abuse victims used as fodder.

But on point of this guy.

His plea is emotional and not based on facts.

1 in 5 lives are ended in the UK with an abortion.

3 lives a day are ended because they have DS in the UK.

9 out of 10 women informed their child have DS end abort the baby.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/6440705/Three-babies-aborted-every-day-due-to-Downs-syndrome.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37500189"

I'm voting yes because I believe in choice, something denied to Irish woman for generations. Using children or victims of abuse to make an argument stand up is weak. You either agree with choice or you don't. If someone decides to abort a pregnancy it will happen just in this country we export the problem to England. We need as a nation to look after our own and stop sending women to England.

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By *isdirtygirlWoman
over a year ago

Dublin

Women were pariahs of society and were hidden away from the world and sent to work in laundries for committing a mortal sin in the eyes of the catholic church. Being made to work against their will and locked up in asylums for having a child out of wedlock is in essence being caged like animals.

The kerry babies , tuam babies and the magdalene laundries are testament to that. Then theres the paedophilic priests who hid behind the cloth they wore to abuse young children.

So forgive me if i show emotion in my post as i am emotional and my view wont change like the wind as you so blithely put it. Women had no choice but to travel with an unplanned pregancy. They had no voice to say it wasnt what they wanted. Do i think they should have a choice? Yes i do. Do I think they should have a voice? Yes i do. So in my view, while i hold utter contempt for the church ( i was raised a catholic), the church isnt my reason for voting yes.

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By *lippery-when-wet-180Woman
over a year ago

South Dub

I’ll be voting yes I believe it is each individual persons choice if they want a child or not. I am told I am too young to have my tubes tied as I MAY still want babies. I know I do not but that again is being told what you want and what you will want.

Not every child born is brought in to this world in a loving wanted environment. Some people have kids and simply can’t or don’t want anymore.

I think it is wrong to have to travel to the U.K. and risking the life of the woman. She is the human here not the foetus in her tummy. It is not murder.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's past time! Why the female population has been held at ransome for this long is beyond belief!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm bemused why people blame the church I think that alot of blame is attributed to 'the church' because people are anti religion...It sounds you may be one of them. I'm interested in your thinking on what you raised about contraception and spread of hiv in Africa. Care to elaborate?"

First of all if I am anti church (Catholic) it does not make me anti religion. I'm sure there are muslims who are anti catholic church. It doesn't make them anti religious. There are plenty of other denominations of christianity at odds with catholicism but that equally does not make people of those faiths anti religion.

I'm not a fan of religion as it comes from a primitive time with little understanding of our place in the cosmos. No understanding of DNA or the human genome. Exorcisms and so forth show no understanding nor compassion of mental health issues . The selling of babies in Ireland for decades by those with church ties and cover up of abuse is a reason to be anti church. I shall not congratulate Jimmy Saville for his charity work posthumously whilst knowing he left a trail of destruction in his past.

It is not just in Ireland either the abuse happened but you know that and choose to ignore it through cognitive dissonance or you don't know the history to which I suggest educating yourself from outlets beyond fab.

As for Africa and the spread of HIV/Aids.

Religions are bundles of ideas and superstitions. Some of these ideas are false but useful, many more are false and dangerous. When the dangerous ideas are codified in official doctrines and institutions, they become positively corrosive. And the result is usually needless human suffering.

Perhaps the most glaring example of this can be seen today in Central Africa, where the Catholic Church continues to preach the sinfulness of condom use. Sub-Saharan Africa is experiencing a devastating HIV and AIDs epidemic, and Catholic prohibitions on contraception are quite literally killing people.

This is a moral outrage and it should treated as such.

In Kenya, something like 1,400,000 people are living with HIV – roughly 6 percent of the population between the ages of 15 and 49. And the rate of infection is significantly higher among young women. In Uganda, the numbers are worse, with close to 8 percent of the same population living with HIV. In Zambia, 13.5 percent of the adult population was identified as HIV-positive as far back as 2009. And the statistics are similarly awful in many other countries in the region.

Shamefully, the Catholic Church has refused to revise its regressive social policies in the face of this crisis. The church continues to serve itself, however, spreading its message and its influence wherever it can, but the enormous suffering wrought by its immoral preachments are not sufficient to provoke change it seems.

In 2010, Pope Benedict XVI appeared to hint at change on this front, but he stopped short of ending the prohibition on contraceptive use. Instead, he equivocated, saying condoms might be permissible in “certain” situations, specifically by male sex workers, “for whom trying to prevent HIV transmission could be ‘a first step in the direction of moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants.’”

Notice the emphasis on “moralization.” The church isn’t interested in dealing with reality, in reducing actual suffering. Their puerile obsession with sex has blinded them to the tragedy in front of them, a tragedy they have made infinitely worse.

Anyone not blinkered by religious dogma can see the moral confusion here. The church still believes sex outside of marriage is a greater evil than AIDs. They would rather people die on account of their sexuality than alter their treasured doctrines. What else can we conclude from their obstinacy on this issue?

Beliefs matter. There is no question that people are dying needlessly out of a misplaced devotion to bad ideas. Catholics in these countries are abiding by the church’s ban on condoms because they believe the alternative is excommunication or worse. That the church or anyone affiliated with it is too invested in its doctrines and traditions to acknowledge this should offend the moral sensibilities of everyone, including Catholics.

There is no coherent defense of the Catholic position on contraception in Africa or anywhere else. The church remains deeply confused about human sexuality and about how people actually live. People are dying every day. The misinformation, the religious intimidation, and the moral backwardness of the church are all contributing to the spread of a deadly but preventable disease.

This is a manufactured tragedy, in other words, and the Catholic Church bears much of the responsibility.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As for Africa and the spread of HIV/Aids.

This is a moral outrage and it should treated as such.

This is a manufactured tragedy, in other words, and the Catholic Church bears much of the responsibility."

Now that's how to answer a question

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You are 45 years old according to your profile. Have you any idea what went on at the mother and baby homes and the despicable treatment the women were forced to endure ? I do know as I have spoken at length many times with someone who experienced it first hand.

Utterly vile. If every one of those homes burned to the ground tomorrow I wouldn't blink an eye in sadness.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

The Church is a corporation. A money making machine. One of the largest landowners in the world. A machine who’s primary objective is to protect its people and deliver value to its stakeholders by whatever means necessary. And unfortunately they’ll be here long after we’re all gone.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

Bit in the meantime we can take back some power ... it's started already in this little corner of the world. I'm voting yes for choice. I'm voting for me ..my sisters ..my daughters .. my friends .. for women.

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By *owdyBoobyMan
over a year ago

limerick

Afraid for the outcomes if goes the way I think it's going to go.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'd like to ask a few questions and ask people who are using the church as a scapegoat and other establiments as excuses for not taking personal responsibility to step back a little.

The Magdalene atrocities have been cited at the Catholic church's fault as are other systems etc etc....

If I'm wrong on this I stand corrected but my reading of many of these events in history doesn't lead me to blame the church or government or whatever we can use to blame for our choices we make.

A quarter of the recorded Magdalene penitents were referee to the laundries BT the state often as an alternative to prison sentences. More were sent through industrial school systems which were a substitute for a welfare system of unpaid labour. An economic godsend as it was for the state.

45% were there because their 'parents' abandoned them in shame. That's correct..Their father and mother chose to reject their child that they conceived and brought into this world simply because of some shame. "Their flesh and blood delivered them willingly into penal servitude because they were fallen women". The word fallen was used for three types, those who had caused shame due to pregnancy out of wedlock, prostitutes and lastly those who were "too beautiful" and became a threat. Magdalene Laundries didn't operate with abnormal autonomy but your society, your communities, your families played theat part in writing this and many other chapters in your history. It happened because Ireland allowed them to happen. Their own did it to save face.

So to attribute blame on the church is nonsensical but more to do with distain by those who have an axe to grind.

If we agree that the laundries weren't run for profit (the nuns were poor business women) and they were run for the sole purpose of 'breaking' sinners, humiliating and abusing them, that's an evil on par with growing rich from the proceeds of forced labour which the state benefited from.

Also I noted that there were many who had been sent their by their families because they were being sexually abused by family members and had threatened to expose that member for what they were doing.

These things happen because we allow them to happen not because someone else did it.

I'm willing to here though if this is incorrect.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

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By *etmebeurfantasyWoman
over a year ago

My town

[Removed by poster at 30/01/18 13:12:31]

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By *etmebeurfantasyWoman
over a year ago

My town

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible."
it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Utterly vile. If every one of those homes burned to the ground tomorrow I wouldn't blink an eye in sadness."

YES.

I've seen more of my share of vile atrocities than probably most on here will ever experience in 10 lifetimes. (Nothing I'm proud of at all but it's what has shaped me and given perspective).

You haven't replied to my question about Africa and HIV.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd like to ask a few questions and ask people who are using the church as a scapegoat and other establiments as excuses for not taking personal responsibility to step back a little.

The Magdalene atrocities have been cited at the Catholic church's fault as are other systems etc etc....

If I'm wrong on this I stand corrected but my reading of many of these events in history doesn't lead me to blame the church or government or whatever we can use to blame for our choices we make.

So to attribute blame on the church is nonsensical but more to do with distain by those who have an axe to grind.

These things happen because we allow them to happen not because someone else did it.

I'm willing to here though if this is incorrect.

This is a well thought out intelligent argument without a doubt but you've forgotten to include one element in this argument. The era this happened was one of complete oppression for women and one where the church ruled with an iron fist. You did what the priest told you or you risked ex communication, been a social outcast, loosing your worth and value. There is plenty of testaments to support this. Families of these girls were often in a position, through lack of education and poverty,that they did whathe they were told. The more wealthy girls got sent away. This is an era where church ruled the state , there was no separation. Children with special needs were locked away ..gay men were imprisoned this was not a nice time in our recent past. Yes families gave up these girls usually with a priest standing behind them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible.it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s. "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You haven't replied to my question about Africa and HIV."

Yes. I comprehensively replied. Go back through the thread

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By *eductively_SweetWoman
over a year ago

wexford

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible.it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s. "

if my memory serves me right the last one closed in 96.

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By *etmebeurfantasyWoman
over a year ago

My town

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible.it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s.

if my memory serves me right the last one closed in 96. "
Jesus

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible.it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s.

I think it's very valid what your saying in the 21st century I think in our recent past things were very different. Yes people make up these organisations but they had the power to destroy lives and they did. This is an era of poverty and lack of education. The power and privilege given to those at the top was often an evil. It did happen girls were removed from homes and often fear was the biggest culprit. Do we blame the poor and underprivileged or do we blame the people who had the power to stop the brutality ??

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By *etmebeurfantasyWoman
over a year ago

My town

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible.it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s.

May I suggest the sin was by those who sent her off, gave her up because they valued their shame and pride more important than their own child, their own flesh and blood and not the church. The church is made up of people, government is made up of people. "
Catholic church was very powerful my great uncle burried his stillborn son himself because in the eyes of the church the child was not baptised and therefore wasn't allowed to be burried in the graveyard in the churches grounds how cruel was that .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible.it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s.

May I suggest sin is a concept made up by barbaric desert dwellers who thought the earth was flat and the earth was the center of the universe.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd like to ask a few questions and ask people who are using the church as a scapegoat and other establiments as excuses for not taking personal responsibility to step back a little.

The Magdalene atrocities have been cited at the Catholic church's fault as are other systems etc etc....

If I'm wrong on this I stand corrected but my reading of many of these events in history doesn't lead me to blame the church or government or whatever we can use to blame for our choices we make.

So to attribute blame on the church is nonsensical but more to do with distain by those who have an axe to grind.

These things happen because we allow them to happen not because someone else did it.

I'm willing to here though if this is incorrect.

I'll not deny it was an era in which the church had immense power and control. How did it get there? People voted those into position of power. Government saw religion as a means to control the masses and so used it as another form of governance by tapping it. It's still being abused in India and Africa and Middle East.

On a side note... slavery was criminalised by 'Christians' who got themselves into positions of power in government and changed the lives of hundreds of millions of people and put an end to the lave trades. (Just a note to those religious haters on here).

PS... human slavery has come back in force again in the last 15 years to become the worlds second most profitable illegal industry with more people in slavery now than there ever were during the slave trades)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible.it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s.

May I suggest the sin was by those who sent her off, gave her up because they valued their shame and pride more important than their own child, their own flesh and blood and not the church. The church is made up of people, government is made up of people. Catholic church was very powerful my great uncle burried his stillborn son himself because in the eyes of the church the child was not baptised and therefore wasn't allowed to be burried in the graveyard in the churches grounds how cruel was that . "

Horrifically cruel ... so many stories. My aunt and Magdalene baby has fought all her life for her identity. The church denyed this to her

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Certainly will be voting. The women of Ireland have a history of their rights being dictated by organisations such as the church. Time to give women the respect they deserve.

Hopefully the majority will have the same thinking as this!

I sure hope so! Too long has the church had its grip on the women of Ireland! Get out and vote good people! X

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By *etmebeurfantasyWoman
over a year ago

My town

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible.it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s.

May I suggest the sin was by those who sent her off, gave her up because they valued their shame and pride more important than their own child, their own flesh and blood and not the church. The church is made up of people, government is made up of people. Catholic church was very powerful my great uncle burried his stillborn son himself because in the eyes of the church the child was not baptised and therefore wasn't allowed to be burried in the graveyard in the churches grounds how cruel was that .

Horrifically cruel ... so many stories. My aunt and Magdalene baby has fought all her life for her identity. The church denyed this to her "
like the film Philomena so sad ..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible.it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s.

May I suggest sin is a concept made up by barbaric desert dwellers who thought the earth was flat and the earth was the center of the universe."

You seem reluctant to substantiate any of you opinions.

But I'll wait expectantly in hope to engage with you. This last one interests me too. What makes those who believe in sin 'barbaric' or is it those who live in less greener surroundings than you makes them barbaric. Or does one gave to hold all 4 concepts to be termed barbaric. Least it excludes myself though I may have had barbaric tendencies at time.

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By *eductively_SweetWoman
over a year ago

wexford

i think this is one of those topics that will continue to wage war on each others opinions etc.. but surely the bottom line here is whether or not a woman has a right to sit with a doctor collect all the revelant information for and against including aftercare and not be judged on the decision she feels is right for her.. there are many a thing done in this life we dont agree with yet we stand by our family & friends shouldnt this be the same

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible.it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s.

May I suggest sin is a concept made up by barbaric desert dwellers who thought the earth was flat and the earth was the center of the universe.

You seem reluctant to substantiate any of you opinions.

I can see now you struggle with basic comprehension amd live inside the truths of your own echo chamber.

Read back what I typed.

I said those who made up the concept of sin were barbaric. I didn't say that those who believed in said concept were barbaric.

I think you need to go back to school.

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By *igBlondeDommeWoman
over a year ago

middle of nowhere

A friend of mine has been asked to bring an "enclosed" order of nuns to the voting centre on the day of voting... lock them up and the church decides when they can go out. When it suits them. Brainwashed into the churches way of thinking. Makes me sick!!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"i think this is one of those topics that will continue to wage war on each others opinions etc.. but surely the bottom line here is whether or not a woman has a right to sit with a doctor collect all the revelant information for and against including aftercare and not be judged on the decision she feels is right for her.. there are many a thing done in this life we dont agree with yet we stand by our family & friends shouldnt this be the same "

100% this

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

what if a woman falls pregnant and she wants an abortion but the father of the child wants to keep it. end of the day you can say all you want but the final choice is a woman's as she carries the child

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you stop thinking of the Church as a religious endeavour, but for what they really are, it becomes clearer (to me anyway).

We are spiritual beings and cannot get away from it. As you clearly show it's not that which is the issue but power, greed and control that 'man' want and will use different ways to achieve that with 'Religious establushment', governance, position etc etc. It all comes back to each one of us being responsible.it brought shame to the said families and if the daughter fell pregnant she was sent off, a disgrace to the family and sinned against the Catholic religion. All down to religion and shame. Hideous and barbaric carry on the laundry homes went on and to think the last one to shut down was in the 80s.

May I suggest sin is a concept made up by barbaric desert dwellers who thought the earth was flat and the earth was the center of the universe.

You seem reluctant to substantiate any of you opinions.

I can see now you struggle with basic comprehension amd live inside the truths of your own echo chamber.

Read back what I typed.

I said those who made up the concept of sin were barbaric. I didn't say that those who believed in said concept were barbaric.

I think you need to go back to school. "

I never left school.

I noticed you keep omitting or avoiding important information... You said they were actually 'barbaric desert dwellers who thought the earth was flat and the earth was the center of the universe', not just barbaric. There's a lot of things people like yourself and myself may believe today given the information with which we have to work with which some may call barbaric however I'm not sure it's a correct term to refer to such people. It's more of term used for for distain than of any factual relevance.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"what if a woman falls pregnant and she wants an abortion but the father of the child wants to keep it. end of the day you can say all you want but the final choice is a woman's as she carries the child "

That's got no relevance in this thread...Keep that for the other one where you have to deal with the woman wanting your child maintenance

Be off with you lol

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

That's got no relevance in this thread...Keep that for the other one where you have to deal with the woman wanting your child maintenance

Be off with you lol"
the thread relevance is choice available to women. I just threw that carrot in there. do you think a woman should be allowed an abortion in all circumstances?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It us not my intention to defend the church or religion or any particular group. I'll nor deny for one minute that there have been serious moral failures and will never deny this has been found throughout history just as been shown in any governance.

If the church us in the firing line now- and they are- it should be noted that it was so often the church the stepped in and cared for the orphans, ran orphanages, provide low cost education opportunities and for those no one cared for. It is the church which has been at the forefront of community life.

The moral failure of the church should be assessed against the background of: 1) The enormous contribution to the care of children and those not wanted over the last centre and more where society has failed.

2.) The church stepped in because Governments and society of which you and me are part of failed to do what was right.

I might suggest that sexual abuse in institutions should be attributed more to the structure and societies assumptions and rights of children rather than religion.

A recent government sponsored indepenent report in Germany into child sexual abuse in religiously affiliated and secular institutions there had interesting findings. Of all the victims surveyed 62% came from non religious institutions. Of the remaining 38%, 4 of every 5 were from Catholic run institutions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That's got no relevance in this thread...Keep that for the other one where you have to deal with the woman wanting your child maintenance

Be off with you lolthe thread relevance is choice available to women. I just threw that carrot in there. do you think a woman should be allowed an abortion in all circumstances?"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just get your name on the register of electors and if you vote check to see that it's still there.

Then get your asses to the polling stations and vote!!

We have a chance to make an historic choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

For the religious/catholic's is it the same God you follow that doesn't advocate for abortion that apparently flooded the planet killing nillions ? The same God who is responsible for more death in the bible than Satan ? The same God apparently who works in mysterious ways and everything has a reason even when walking into a child cancer ward. Is this the same God who often fails to cure these kids despite being all powerful and loving ? Is it the same God who doesn't prevent miscarriages or are these abortions by God as he felt something wasn't right with the child ? Is it that same God ?

The reality is books such as the bible are fantasy. It is why people should read them as fiction. The belief in a God is not the same as proof of God. Feelings of God stirred up by a human sensory system exceptionally prone to error is not evidence.

Thor was not a god, nor Freya, nor Dionysus, nor Mithra, nor Horus, nor Jesus. He was if anything a patchwork plagiarism of other supposed gods hypothesised by previous civilisations. The virgin birth is not an original story, the flood is not original, 12 followers is not original, being raised from the dead is not original.

Myth and fantasy have no place in dictating law in modern society although certainly people are free to believe against any objective evidence.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the language and arguments on this thread demonstrates Irish societies opposing views to abortion in general.

It's going to get heated and messy between now and the actual referendum.

Moral, financial, religious and social arguments will be made from all sides and will be on television everyday until May.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself.

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By *etmebeurfantasyWoman
over a year ago

My town

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself."
protection is not 100% it's a choice women have it's not always about a failed contraceptive that a woman takes the decision...

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By *isdirtygirlWoman
over a year ago

Dublin

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself."

If it was as black and white as you describe there'd be no need for a referendum.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just get your name on the register of electors and if you vote check to see that it's still there.

Then get your asses to the polling stations and vote!!

We have a chance to make an historic choice."

I'm looking forward to been part of historic change for the women of this country

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Me too Sally! The youngest person in this country who last had a say is now 52 years old.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself."

If it was that simple abortion would never be needed but we all know it's more complicated then that.

The referendum is about choice . Something denied for so many generations. At least now we are taking responsibility for our citizens and not just exporting the problem. It's time for the blinkers to come off and this country grow up and take responsibility for its own citizens.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself."

Maybe it's because the child isn't that important which has some ring of irony in the debate. Or for some they'd prefer to hold the view that it isn't life until x number of weeks even though it is growing. If the law states it isn't life until x weeks the the law must be right and my conscious is appeased.

Nothing is clear cut and to this who say condoms are 100% safe as they split... That's correct or that the pill isn't 100% fool proof, I agree but we can't, don't and never will live in a 100% safe world. That's why we take risks, calculated, but we need to accept the responsibility that goes with taking risks.

There are clearly different debates going on here which does cloud the OP that was posed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

since I believe it's another life and everyone has a right to their own life.

I don't get a lot of the pro arguments such as well it's going to have a bad life etc. Since you wouldn't say the same for a baby whose parents pass in car accident or something. So really unless I am convinced that it's not a unique human life then this will be my view.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 30/01/18 16:58:23]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself.

There are clearly different debates going on here which does cloud the OP that was posed. "

I agree themail OPs post is calling for people to vote and I will vote for women's rights to choose. It's the most important vote of my life

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself.

If it was that simple abortion would never be needed but we all know it's more complicated then that.

How does taking the countries blinkers off resolve the unheard cries of the one being aborted?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

on the flip side of course, im sure they are aware of the guilt that would come from taking a life and how that simply could ruin you psycologically

no right or wrong answer here folks

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself.

If it was that simple abortion would never be needed but we all know it's more complicated then that.

How does taking the countries blinkers off resolve the unheard cries of the one being aborted?"

This is about choice something women have been denied to long. As intelligent adults respect a woman's right to choose.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself.

If it was that simple abortion would never be needed but we all know it's more complicated then that.

How does taking the countries blinkers off resolve the unheard cries of the one being aborted?

This is about choice something women have been denied to long. As intelligent adults respect a woman's right to choose. "

I think the debates and positions of so many on this may reflect that's far more than just the woman's choice. I may be wrong but I'd say if it were that simple there wouldn't be much discussion and no resistance to women having a choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself.

If it was that simple abortion would never be needed but we all know it's more complicated then that.

How does taking the countries blinkers off resolve the unheard cries of the one being aborted?"

Are u for fooking real?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself.

If it was that simple abortion would never be needed but we all know it's more complicated then that.

How does taking the countries blinkers off resolve the unheard cries of the one being aborted?

This is about choice something women have been denied to long. As intelligent adults respect a woman's right to choose.

Without a doubt your correct but it still happens every day. Young women leave this country on the longest loneliest journey a woman can make. One she'll not have made some flippant choice about ... these women deserve to looked after, their human rights met. I vote for choice

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself."

Protection is never a guarantee.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

At the end of the day it is murder . If you got pregnant accidentally and not ready to be a parent then give the child up for adoption , many couples try and cannot have children so theres many options out there for adoption .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"At the end of the day it is murder . If you got pregnant accidentally and not ready to be a parent then give the child up for adoption , many couples try and cannot have children so theres many options out there for adoption ."

That's your choice it's just not for everyone and that's what this is about

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There's a good argument I've heard for those who equate a foetus with a living being.

Imagine you were in a sperm donation clinic and a fire broke out. There are the samples of a million sperm and a new born baby in danger. You can only save one. Of course you'd save the baby; because, as with the foetus, the samples are not living things.

The distinction is between life and the potential for life. A huge and significant distinction.

Repeal the 8th and allow those who can become pregnant autonomy over their bodies.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself.

If it was that simple abortion would never be needed but we all know it's more complicated then that.

How does taking the countries blinkers off resolve the unheard cries of the one being aborted?

This is about choice something women have been denied to long. As intelligent adults respect a woman's right to choose.

I don't deny any of that. Maybe society has failed and may fail yet again. I may ad that even if the bill is passed it won't stop that long lonely journey women make. It didn't in England or anywhere else. May I suggest it only changes it. And that's why. Society will fail again.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Against it. If you don't want a baby then care about protection or don't have sex at all.

And people should have the right to decide about another human this way. The kid should have the chance to live rather than kill it before it has the chance to prove itself.

If it was that simple abortion would never be needed but we all know it's more complicated then that.

How does taking the countries blinkers off resolve the unheard cries of the one being aborted?

This is about choice something women have been denied to long. As intelligent adults respect a woman's right to choose.

It's a first step .. it's better then we have now. I for one am content that there's women if this bill passed that will be loved and cared for here as all women should be if they've to make this choice. No matter the circumstances don't ever believe it's an easy choice and doesn't leave a mark. For some this means support and that's a good thing.

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

you will have alot say women should be allowed abortion in certain circumstances but not all. should a woman whose r...d be allowed abort? absolutely imo but thats a world of difference to two people having sex and are completely careless. those are two just examples. a few have said it here. if both parties take care you will be ok. I have has sex since I was 16 and not once did I not use a condom. take care with it and it won't burst. a woman also with her contraceptive. saying all that an abortion is not an easy choice either and will be costly I'd imagine

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What about if you were made having another person baby wothiut your consent how would you feel about having that baby? It won’t let me type the word here.

As another poster said it’s not black and white hence the reason there will be a referendum

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'd be so happy too hear that a child giving for adoption. Went too a couple that couldn't have any. Then ending a life, where they don't have any say.

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By *etmebeurfantasyWoman
over a year ago

My town

What about if you were made having another person baby wothiut your consent how would you feel about having that baby? It won’t let me type the word here.

As another poster said it’s not black and white hence the reason there will be a referendum "
exactly it's not just down to a failed contraceptive .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But anyone can order the abortion pill online. What's the point in pretending it doesn't happen?

Thousands of Irish women illegally take the abortion pill in this country every year. Not legislating for that is irresponsible.

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By *aid backMan
over a year ago

by a lake with my rod out

"you will have alot say women should be allowed abortion in certain circumstances but not all. should a woman whose r...d be allowed abort? absolutely imo but thats a world of difference to two people having sex and are completely careless. those are two just examples. a few have said it here. if both parties take care you will be ok. I have has sex since I was 16 and not once did I not use a condom. take care with it and it won't burst. a woman also with her contraceptive. saying all that an abortion is not an easy choice either and will be costly I'd imagine "

You've never had sex without a condom even in relationships?

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By *isdirtygirlWoman
over a year ago

Dublin

"I'd be so happy too hear that a child giving for adoption. Went too a couple that couldn't have any. Then ending a life, where they don't have any say. "

What about the woman that doesnt want to carry a child to full term and put it up for adoption?

In an ideal world thered be no need for abortions. Thered be no r@pe or sexual assault cases happening, no women dying from complications during pregnancy or women dying giving birth. Wouldnt life be just peachy if women accepted their bodies were made for reproduction.

But the ideal world greatly differs the real world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd be so happy too hear that a child giving for adoption. Went too a couple that couldn't have any. Then ending a life, where they don't have any say.

What about the woman that doesnt want to carry a child to full term and put it up for adoption?

But the ideal world greatly differs the real world. "

I'm the real world there's shades of gray to go along with the black and white

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By *isdirtygirlWoman
over a year ago

Dublin

"I'd be so happy too hear that a child giving for adoption. Went too a couple that couldn't have any. Then ending a life, where they don't have any say.

What about the woman that doesnt want to carry a child to full term and put it up for adoption?

But the ideal world greatly differs the real world.

I'm the real world there's shades of gray to go along with the black and white "

Thats my point Sally. I said as much further up the thread.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Never once had unprotected sex .. not once ?? Well fair play to you. I know in relationships I have gotten carried away. These things do happen

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

You've never had sex without a condom even in relationships? "
never. always used a condom but havnt been in many serious relationships

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

Never once had unprotected sex .. not once ?? Well fair play to you. I know in relationships I have gotten carried away. These things do happen "
I call that carelessness. both partners use contraception, bobs your uncle

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd be so happy too hear that a child giving for adoption. Went too a couple that couldn't have any. Then ending a life, where they don't have any say.

What about the woman that doesnt want to carry a child to full term and put it up for adoption?

But the ideal world greatly differs the real world. "

We can maybe legislate for test tube babies next and simply solve all those issue you just raised.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Never once had unprotected sex .. not once ?? Well fair play to you. I know in relationships I have gotten carried away. These things do happen I call that carelessness. both partners use contraception, bobs your uncle

I was in a serious relationship it's hardly any issue.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The real question is at what point does life become worth anything and more importantly WHY.

For me abortion is always killing and when it comes to killing humans or something that will become a human it is always wrong.

If you don't believe life as any real worth then I can see why you wouldn't care about abortion.

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

I was in a serious relationship it's hardly any issue. "
doesn't matter. you talk about protecting against a pregnancy. it's not rocket science

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd be so happy too hear that a child giving for adoption. Went too a couple that couldn't have any. Then ending a life, where they don't have any say.

What about the woman that doesnt want to carry a child to full term and put it up for adoption?

But the ideal world greatly differs the real world.

We can maybe legislate for test tube babies next and simply solve all those issue you just raised.

That comes across as a wee bit petty. Everyone is entitled to am opinion without fear of someone trying to belittle them. Adults having a debate is good. Listening and respecting others opinions us good, making another out to be foolish because their opinion is different to yours is not so good

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was in a serious relationship it's hardly any issue. doesn't matter. you talk about protecting against a pregnancy. it's not rocket science "

And that's why I'd secondary contraception but of course I'll bow to your superiority on this subject .. what would I know . Silly woman

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By *isdirtygirlWoman
over a year ago

Dublin

"I'd be so happy too hear that a child giving for adoption. Went too a couple that couldn't have any. Then ending a life, where they don't have any say.

What about the woman that doesnt want to carry a child to full term and put it up for adoption?

But the ideal world greatly differs the real world.

We can maybe legislate for test tube babies next and simply solve all those issue you just raised.

I knew youd throw another sniping sarcastic remark onto this thread somewhere. Its typical of you. But having said, that the first test tube/ ivf baby was born 31 years ago

Did that stop women from having abortions? Dont even answer that.

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By *longshottMan
over a year ago

Limerick

Looking at the campaigning it's going Tobe a very dirty fight. Such a shame for an issue where information should be given without grandstanding.

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

I was in a serious relationship it's hardly any issue. doesn't matter. you talk about protecting against a pregnancy. it's not rocket science

And that's why I'd secondary contraception but of course I'll bow to your superiority on this subject .. what would I know . Silly woman

"
protection. perfect.

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

"Looking at the campaigning it's going Tobe a very dirty fight. Such a shame for an issue where information should be given without grandstanding."
the question is what is it. what's the vote 4? is it for women to have an abortion whenever they like.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Looking at the campaigning it's going Tobe a very dirty fight. Such a shame for an issue where information should be given without grandstanding.the question is what is it. what's the vote 4? is it for women to have an abortion whenever they like. "

I think it's up to 12 weeks, or is that still up for discussion. Plenty women don't even realise they're pregnant by that point.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think it's up to 12 weeks, or is that still up for discussion. Plenty women don't even realise they're pregnant by that point. "

The referendum is solely to repel article 8.

Prior to the referendum happening the Health Minister will put in place the new abortion legislation.

What that legislation will be, no-one knows and you won't be voting on that.

That's why I take from the news reports

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By *longshottMan
over a year ago

Limerick

Well said but a lot of votes will.be decided on the most extreme arguments that can be presented whether they will actually form any large proportion of what is intended through people not informing themselves.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd be so happy too hear that a child giving for adoption. Went too a couple that couldn't have any. Then ending a life, where they don't have any say.

What about the woman that doesnt want to carry a child to full term and put it up for adoption?

But the ideal world greatly differs the real world.

We can maybe legislate for test tube babies next and simply solve all those issue you just raised.

Well it wasn't petty it was looking at each of those points you make and trying to provide that perfect world solution you alluded too. Your first statement about assuming it's acceptable for a woman to just terminate a pregnancy just simply because she doesn't want to go through to its completion is one of the classics which demonstrates how so many just think it's just all about them and forget there are others involved.

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

Why don't you look it up its all out there. There's a yes campaign, a no campaign and details of the law that is looking to be changed. Research it , look it up. Form your own opinion on the subject. It's lazy to expect others to just tell you. "
you expect me to read all about that subject when somebody could probably easily sum it up for me on here in 2 sentences. all I asked was what are you voting to bring in? I doubt it's a rigmarole answer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why don't you look it up its all out there. There's a yes campaign, a no campaign and details of the law that is looking to be changed. Research it , look it up. Form your own opinion on the subject. It's lazy to expect others to just tell you. you expect me to read all about that subject when somebody could probably easily sum it up for me on here in 2 sentences. all I asked was what are you voting to bring in? I doubt it's a rigmarole answer. "

Great point fair play to you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd be so happy too hear that a child giving for adoption. Went too a couple that couldn't have any. Then ending a life, where they don't have any say.

What about the woman that doesnt want to carry a child to full term and put it up for adoption?

But the ideal world greatly differs the real world.

We can maybe legislate for test tube babies next and simply solve all those issue you just raised.

I made none of those points but your observation skills have been noted

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

Why don't you look it up its all out there. There's a yes campaign, a no campaign and details of the law that is looking to be changed. Research it , look it up. Form your own opinion on the subject. It's lazy to expect others to just tell you. you expect me to read all about that subject when somebody could probably easily sum it up for me on here in 2 sentences. all I asked was what are you voting to bring in? I doubt it's a rigmarole answer.

Great point fair play to you

"
typical fab response

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By *etmebeurfantasyWoman
over a year ago

My town

Why don't you look it up its all out there. There's a yes campaign, a no campaign and details of the law that is looking to be changed. Research it , look it up. Form your own opinion on the subject. It's lazy to expect others to just tell you. you expect me to read all about that subject when somebody could probably easily sum it up for me on here in 2 sentences. all I asked was what are you voting to bring in? I doubt it's a rigmarole answer.

Great point fair play to you

typical fab response

"
it's to legally let abortions take place in Ireland and the women don't go over to uk for the procedure to happen.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd be so happy too hear that a child giving for adoption. Went too a couple that couldn't have any. Then ending a life, where they don't have any say.

What about the woman that doesnt want to carry a child to full term and put it up for adoption?

But the ideal world greatly differs the real world.

We can maybe legislate for test tube babies next and simply solve all those issue you just raised.

I knew youd throw another sniping sarcastic remark onto this thread somewhere. Its typical of you. But having said, that the first test tube/ ivf baby was born 31 years ago

Did that stop women from having abortions? Dont even answer that.

Typical? It wasn't a sniping sarcastic remark and certainly wasnt said to belitle Sally or anyone as I think has been shown... But it's certainly something you do well yourself and often look for on the forums. But if you'll reread my remark you'll find its not referring to the odd test tube experiment....But rather implies a style of nanny state to control the populous where real choice has been take away in the name of free choice.

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

Why don't you look it up its all out there. There's a yes campaign, a no campaign and details of the law that is looking to be changed. Research it , look it up. Form your own opinion on the subject. It's lazy to expect others to just tell you. you expect me to read all about that subject when somebody could probably easily sum it up for me on here in 2 sentences. all I asked was what are you voting to bring in? I doubt it's a rigmarole answer.

Great point fair play to you

typical fab response

it's to legally let abortions take place in Ireland and the women don't go over to uk for the procedure to happen. "
abortions in all circumstances?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think it's up to 12 weeks, or is that still up for discussion. Plenty women don't even realise they're pregnant by that point.

The referendum is solely to repel article 8.

Prior to the referendum happening the Health Minister will put in place the new abortion legislation.

What that legislation will be, no-one knows and you won't be voting on that.

That's why I take from the news reports"

Thank you

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By *etmebeurfantasyWoman
over a year ago

My town

Why don't you look it up its all out there. There's a yes campaign, a no campaign and details of the law that is looking to be changed. Research it , look it up. Form your own opinion on the subject. It's lazy to expect others to just tell you. you expect me to read all about that subject when somebody could probably easily sum it up for me on here in 2 sentences. all I asked was what are you voting to bring in? I doubt it's a rigmarole answer.

Great point fair play to you

typical fab response

it's to legally let abortions take place in Ireland and the women don't go over to uk for the procedure to happen. abortions in all circumstances?"
yes

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As with all referendums there are those that take any change in the legislation to the constitution of our country seriously,research what it's about and make an informed decision and there's those that don't. Nothing can change that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd be so happy too hear that a child giving for adoption. Went too a couple that couldn't have any. Then ending a life, where they don't have any say.

What about the woman that doesnt want to carry a child to full term and put it up for adoption?

But the ideal world greatly differs the real world.

We can maybe legislate for test tube babies next and simply solve all those issue you just raised.

I made none of those points but your observation skills have been noted

My apology for attributing something another said in a long string. But your sarcasm has been duly noted too

Time to leave what was a good discussion as it turns.

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

Why don't you look it up its all out there. There's a yes campaign, a no campaign and details of the law that is looking to be changed. Research it , look it up. Form your own opinion on the subject. It's lazy to expect others to just tell you. you expect me to read all about that subject when somebody could probably easily sum it up for me on here in 2 sentences. all I asked was what are you voting to bring in? I doubt it's a rigmarole answer.

Great point fair play to you

typical fab response

it's to legally let abortions take place in Ireland and the women don't go over to uk for the procedure to happen. abortions in all circumstances?yes "
I personally agree with abortion in some but probably not all situations.

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By *longshottMan
over a year ago

Limerick

Why don't you look it up its all out there. There's a yes campaign, a no campaign and details of the law that is looking to be changed. Research it , look it up. Form your own opinion on the subject. It's lazy to expect others to just tell you. you expect me to read all about that subject when somebody could probably easily sum it up for me on here in 2 sentences. all I asked was what are you voting to bring in? I doubt it's a rigmarole answer.

Great point fair play to you

typical fab response

it's to legally let abortions take place in Ireland and the women don't go over to uk for the procedure to happen. abortions in all circumstances?yes I personally agree with abortion in some but probably not all situations. "

I'm a bit curious. What would be case you wouldn't be.

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By *ontbesillywrapyourwillyMan
over a year ago

Tipperary

Why don't you look it up its all out there. There's a yes campaign, a no campaign and details of the law that is looking to be changed. Research it , look it up. Form your own opinion on the subject. It's lazy to expect others to just tell you. you expect me to read all about that subject when somebody could probably easily sum it up for me on here in 2 sentences. all I asked was what are you voting to bring in? I doubt it's a rigmarole answer.

Great point fair play to you

typical fab response

I'm a bit curious. What would be case you wouldn't be.

"
carelessness but hard to judge on that. r...e is a deffo for it to be allowed?

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By *oghunter33Woman
over a year ago

on the hill NordWest of

I think it's up to 12 weeks, or is that still up for discussion. Plenty women don't even realise they're pregnant by that point.

The referendum is solely to repel article 8.

Prior to the referendum happening the Health Minister will put in place the new abortion legislation.

What that legislation will be, no-one knows and you won't be voting on that.

That's why I take from the news reports"

This is quite crucial! It's just about the 8th amendment, nothing else. As long as the 8th is in place no legislation whatsoever can be drawn up to regulate abortion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The vote is to either respect or disrespect a woman’s right to have control over her body up until 12 weeks gestation and to enable her to have access to appropriate medical supervision in her own country for the duration of the experience.

It s basically voting on whether we wish to treat women as adults who may control their own bodies or if we chose to be patriarchal knobends who prefer to punish women and force them to jump through hoops if they have the audacity to expect to control their own bodies.

One way or the other abortions happen - we just need to decide just whether we want to maintain the element of control and punishment and shame and separation from consistent medical practitioners of the woman’s choice or not.

It’s a simple yes or no .

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