FabSwingers.com forum: New consent law

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Approved in principle by the dail yesterday.

I'm worried it gives too much opportunity for false allegations relative to the scope for more real convictions.

We all know people can be very vindictive when love is lost as evidenced by the crazy behaviour behind the scenes in this place at times.

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By *eadue stallionMan
over a year ago

Yes

Will they be bringing in a Swinger's Tax?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Keep to the point brother, don't be a Troll please

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By *eadue stallionMan
over a year ago

Yes

We don't all know people can be very vindictive when love is lost as evidenced by the crazy behaviour behind the scenes in this place at times....

So what are you trying to say??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Approved in principle by the dail yesterday.

I'm worried it gives too much opportunity for false allegations relative to the scope for more real convictions.

We all know people can be very vindictive when love is lost as evidenced by the crazy behaviour behind the scenes in this place at times. "

In reality the amount of false allegations is relatively low. I can only find an article from 2009 stating that ireland has a high rate of false rape allegations. This article says that 9% of rape allegations are false.

In perspective only 10-20% of all rapes are even reported so it's a very small number that are false.

I look forward to seeing how this definition pans out and will be paying close attention to it.

I'm hoping it will help all victims of sexual abuse and perhaps next there might be a review of sentences for rapists and sexual abusers as they are far too lenient atm.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

That's just an example

It opens a door for an extremely spiteful act

Swing party, all pissed, someone a bit demented gets the huff because you snagged her arch enemy after her and you lost your standard issue book of 2017 dated pre-coital consent forms along with your favourite boxers

Oh oh why are the po po at my door?

Just to paint an extreme but possible example

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

9% of how many are false? Is that acceptable?

I agree on sentencing, far too lenient

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"That's just an example

It opens a door for an extremely spiteful act

Oh oh why are the po po at my door?

Just to paint an extreme but possible example

Swingers spiteful?

Never

But you do hit on a good point with alcohol

Mr Justice Charleton ruled that consent cannot exist if a woman, for any reason, is not in a condition to give it.

Ergo if a lady is d*unk she cannot reasonably give consent.

So coffee meets lads and get the breathalyser out before you shag her.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What r u talking about exactly ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What r u talking about exactly ? "

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sexual-consent-legislation-to-be-submitted-for-cabinet-approval-1.2948315

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Especially in Ireland where people gets rat arsed d*unk as foreplay

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"9% of how many are false? Is that acceptable?

I agree on sentencing, far too lenient"

It didn't give figures. And it's an article that's 7 years old so I wouldn't be trusting figures if it did contain any tbh.

And no, never acceptable. The women should be, and have been successfully, tried and prosecuted when it's proven to be a false allegation.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"9% of how many are false? Is that acceptable?

I agree on sentencing, far too lenient

It didn't give figures. And it's an article that's 7 years old so I wouldn't be trusting figures if it did contain any tbh.

And no, never acceptable. The women should be, and have been successfully, tried and prosecuted when it's proven to be a false allegation.

My view on this is two wrongs don't make a right

It's a very tricky legal process already and I don't think one side should get an unfair (as in unverifiable) advantage

Push for better education to get the reporting rate up (with the caveat that you don't go around screaming rape culture from the rooftops and blurring the definitions of what is abuse/rape and what is not)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"9% of how many are false? Is that acceptable?

I agree on sentencing, far too lenient

It didn't give figures. And it's an article that's 7 years old so I wouldn't be trusting figures if it did contain any tbh.

And no, never acceptable. The women should be, and have been successfully, tried and prosecuted when it's proven to be a false allegation.

Yes wan with that footballer wasn't prosecuted if I'm correct

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"9% of how many are false? Is that acceptable?

I agree on sentencing, far too lenient

It didn't give figures. And it's an article that's 7 years old so I wouldn't be trusting figures if it did contain any tbh.

And no, never acceptable. The women should be, and have been successfully, tried and prosecuted when it's proven to be a false allegation.

My view on this is two wrongs don't make a right

It's a very tricky legal process already and I don't think one side should get an unfair (as in unverifiable) advantage

I don't think it's unfair to try and prosecute the women who make false rape allegations.

They may ruin a man's life. You know what ireland is like - "OH there's your man who was accused of rape".

It'll never leave him.

And it's an offence under Section 12 of the Criminal Law Act 1976 to make a false allegation.

So it's a criminal act and I'm sure she can done for defamation in a civil suit too.

Completely agree with you on education. That's why I welcome this definition. Information is power.

Unfortunately I don't think the true number of rapes will ever be reported as it's such an evasive and awful procedure and can feel like a victim is being doubted and interrogated. Plus people see the sentences rapists get and think he'll just walk anyway. I know people who have been told by Gardai it's not worth their while pressing charges as nothing will happen etc.

The whole system needs a shake up in this country where sexual abuse is concerned.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"9% of how many are false? Is that acceptable?

I agree on sentencing, far too lenient

It didn't give figures. And it's an article that's 7 years old so I wouldn't be trusting figures if it did contain any tbh.

And no, never acceptable. The women should be, and have been successfully, tried and prosecuted when it's proven to be a false allegation.

Yes wan with that footballer wasn't prosecuted if I'm correct "

I was referring to Irish cases, not UK.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Same principle

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Sorry wobbly what I said is confusing. A false rape allegation is a terrible thing and should be prosecuted, I agree

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sorry wobbly what I said is confusing. A false rape allegation is a terrible thing and should be prosecuted, I agree"

My apologies then, I picked you up wrong from the post

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Completely agree with you on education. That's why I welcome this definition. Information is power.

The whole system needs a shake up in this country where sexual abuse is concerned. "

Your first point is wrong... Bringing intoxication into a legal definition does zero for education...

There is no link required between the legal basis and getting the right messages across. Agreeing with it agrees tacitly to more false convictions which you have already said are terrible.

Let's say there are two cases.... One real, one false

Prelaw

One real rape has occurred, one conviction

Post law

One real rape has occurred, two go to jail and an innocent man's life is ruined

Which do you prefer?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Here's the solution:

Educate girls... No means no... If he pushes it... Don't just lie there... You are not guilty... Struggle, fight, get the trauma marks and GO STRAIGHT TO A DOCTOR AND THEN THE COPS

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

The new law doesnt actually change much. Its defining in law the standard that judges have been applying all along.

And its not a case of having a couple beers and shes untouchabke, its if shes passed out d*unk.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Here's the solution:

Educate girls... No means no... If he pushes it... Don't just lie there... You are not guilty... Struggle, fight, get the trauma marks and GO STRAIGHT TO A DOCTOR AND THEN THE COPS

How about we educate men.

Don't rape. End of lesson.

One of the most common reactions when being raped is to freeze so not all women are capable of struggling or fighting in these situations

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By *ombikerMan
over a year ago

the right side of the river

"Sorry wobbly what I said is confusing. A false rape allegation is a terrible thing and should be prosecuted, I agree"

I personally know 2 door men that were accused of rape in very similar circumstances. They knocked back offers of a bit of jiggy jiggy from d*unken women and were in such a state were asked to leave. The next day they had visits from the guards to arrest them and questioned them, they were blessed that they were on cctv all the time and could prove nothing happened. This happened years apart and one in Dublin and one in Galway. People still comment on them getting away with rape, no smoke without fire and all that.

So anyway I nearly lost my train of thought.

false claims of rape not only destroy a mans reputstion it also makes it harder for genuine cases to get a fair hearing. I think false claims should be prosicuted and the sentence should be the same as what rapist would have received if the false claim was upheld, actually for any crime I think the person making s false claim should receive whatever the other would get had they been wrongly convicted

Jasus I will take a breath now

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Question for all here.

Have you ever seen a sheep with a clean arse?

Probably not as shit sticks so a guys life is ruined from the false allegation

Now lets turn it around from the ladies point of view.

She gets raped feels scared and cannot report it. Her life has changed and destroyed as she bottles it all up inside.

Her life is ruined

Now another lady is raped

She reports it and is interrogated like a criminal.

Guy gets 2 years suspended

Her life is ruined

No one can ever win in this horrible act. But i would take the first scenario over the other two any day. The innocent guy knows he is innocent. The 2 ladies can never get over what a horrible act has been done and irreparable damage leads to at times them taking their own lives.

*breathes*

Hard

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Here's the solution:

Educate girls... No means no... If he pushes it... Don't just lie there... You are not guilty... Struggle, fight, get the trauma marks and GO STRAIGHT TO A DOCTOR AND THEN THE COPS

Get the trauma marks ??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sorry wobbly what I said is confusing. A false rape allegation is a terrible thing and should be prosecuted, I agree

So anyway I nearly lost my train of thought.

Jasus I will take a breath now "

False claims can be (and have been) prosecuted as it's a criminal offence

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Here's the solution:

Educate girls... No means no... If he pushes it... Don't just lie there... You are not guilty... Struggle, fight, get the trauma marks and GO STRAIGHT TO A DOCTOR AND THEN THE COPS

How about we educate men.

Don't rape. End of lesson.

One of the most common reactions when being raped is to freeze so not all women are capable of struggling or fighting in these situations "

That's an extremely insulting position to take and is my main beef with Feminism of recent times

Everyone but a sick despot understands the message. The same as we don't have 'don't kill' education (biblical aside)

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

How about we educate men.

Don't rape. End of lesson.

One of the most common reactions when being raped is to freeze so not all women are capable of struggling or fighting in these situations "

I dont know if youre seriously advocating "Dont Rape" as education or just making a point to the other but it is something done by Americans and Ive seen it mentioned over here. And its the most empty-headed nonsense. RAINN are ine of the oldest and largest sex abuse advocate groups in the world and have looked at this and said it does not work even a tiny bit.

They do great work in the areas of support and prevention and back effective methods and this is not one of them because theres 2 types of people who commit assault. The ones that know what theyve done and dont care and the ones that dont think it was really assault or rape. "Dont Rape" has no effect with either of those groups for obvious reasons.

Again dont know if you were seriously putting that forward as an idea but there are people that are and its a waste of time, energy and resources.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The innocent man gets raped, beaten or killed in prison. He is a social pariah when he gets out.

Is that still preferable?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The innocent man gets raped, beaten or killed in prison. He is a social pariah when he gets out.

Is that still preferable? "

If that is aimed at my post please take the whole thing in context

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It is and I did, I see your point but I can't see a legal process with sacrificial victims as workable.

The crux as you spelled out is lenient sentencing. That's the problem in your example.

Chemical castration and/or full life duration sentencing for those on the twisted repeat offender spectrum

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm really a bit puzzled why we need this new legislation.

When you're passed out or mentally incapacitated you can't give convent to anything. That's why Gardai for example will not interview an intoxicated suspect or record a statement from someone who's pissed. That's why children or an adult with the mental age of a ten year old can't sign a valid hire purchase agreement for a car.

Yeah but the incarcerated bit I hear you say....false imprisonment has been a serious offence ever since slavery was abolished in these parts. If both rape and false imprisonment were to happen at the same time why not simply prosecute both offences simultaneously ?

And so it continues....If you ask me it's needless legislation coming down the road. What's already on the books is perfectly adequate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sorry folks, should be consent, not convent. Bloody predictive text...

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By *xplicitlyricsMan
over a year ago

south dublin

"I'm really a bit puzzled why we need this new legislation.

And so it continues....If you ask me it's needless legislation coming down the road. What's already on the books is perfectly adequate.

The current legislation was vague as to whether being passed out counted as non consent. The courts have always taken the position that it has, this is just explicitly stating thats the case.

It really is a non story, its just legislative tidying up but because of the subject matter it makes a good headline.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

What is the new (proposed) definition expert, I haven't seen it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I understand that but simply the absence of resistance does not equal consent.

To give valid consent to anything you need to be conscious and in a competent state of mind. Of course the courts deemed being asleep or passed out/addled through drink or drugs to be invalid consent. Just like they would see paralysis and inability to physically resist as absence of consent.

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By *m389Man
over a year ago

Magherafelt

I recently read a quote from John Adams, 2nd president of the US. It very eloquently sums up my thoughts and feelings.

"It is more important that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt be punished; for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world, that all of them cannot be punished.... when innocence itself, is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, 'it is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security.' And if such a sentiment as this were to take hold in the mind of the subject that would be the end of all security whatsoever"

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I recently read a quote from John Adams, 2nd president of the US. It very eloquently sums up my thoughts and feelings.

Great!

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