FabSwingers.com forum: "Feminism is for men"

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Quoting an article in the independent

Discuss

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's not a bad newspaper.

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By *oghunter33Woman
over a year ago

on the hill NordWest of

I haven't read it.....yet. But hey superflash I'm ready for another discussion with you. Was interesting the last time

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Shudder shudder

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By *aid backMan
over a year ago

by a lake with my rod out

the independent is still rag of a paper

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In the sense that confident, assertive woman are a benefit to all by all means. I've never got why any man would want a door mat.

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By *al2001Man
over a year ago

kildare

Super flash is quoting an article from the independent

There I've discussed it

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I haven't read it.....yet. But hey superflash I'm ready for another discussion with you. Was interesting the last time

What were we on about last time?

I'll add some more context

It was about great Irish feminists of the last 100 years, listed loads of great accomplishments in the 70s and 80s then fast forward to the 2000 to 2016 period and there was a big gap in the legislative progress time line and some waffle of feminism is for everyone (men, women, trans)

(hint it's all been done pre 2000....contraception, equal pay acts, recognition of rape within a marriage, 2 women presidents etc. )

We live in a more or less very equal society all things things considered and a culture war between the sexes serves no one

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We live in a more or less very equal society all things considered "

What do you base that on? Also, would you disagree with the figures in the link below or think they are wrong?

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/files/gender_pay_gap/gpg_country_factsheet_ie_2015_en.pdf

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Ah lenses you just uncovered my favourite example of lying with statistics...That is an average and as anyone with a bit of sense knows, an average is far too blunt an instrument to extract a real understanding of any situation from.

But it makes a great headline

The devil is really in the detail but if you adjust for part time work, overtime and career breaks it shows that pay is equal.

Sheryl Sandberg the female coo {I think} of Facebook has a clearer viewer of things as she explains in her book. It's not that women aren't allowed the top jobs, the generally have more sense and favour work/life/family balance to a sociopathic pursuit of wealth and power at the expense of other things which more men are afflicted with.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The devil is really in the detail but if you adjust for part time work, overtime and career breaks it shows that pay is equal.

I'd love to have a read about that if you can post a link.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I'll see what I can do... Do you get my point that an 'unadjusted' gross hourly average is far too blunt?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#1cf03ae04766

Here's a good one, article and speech both by women for balance

I notice that the term 'for equal work' has slipped into the narrative but that is not the case with an average, especially when it is noted that there are many more men CEOs than women and that men and women do gravitate towards different careers and industries... In other words...not always the same work

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'll see what I can do... Do you get my point that an 'unadjusted' gross hourly average is far too blunt? "

It can potentially be too blunt but that doesn't mean it is. You'd need stats and figures to have a good idea.

For example:

Part-time work: do you have breakdown of the percentage of men vs women who work part-time?

Overtime - how many people get paid overtime now? Again, do you have stats for the number of overtime hours men work vs women?

Career breaks - As above you'd need stats.

But then other issues can come into it. How many men are willing to take a career break while their partner continues her career? How many men are willing to put in equal effort in housework so their partner can work more hours? etc etc

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Again you'd need the stats

I don't think men are shy about cooking or hoovering these days. Do you?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Again you'd need the stats

I don't think men are shy about cooking or hoovering these days. Do you? "

You would.

In the link I posted above it stated that on average men spend 9 hours per week on unpaid care and household activities compared to 26 hours for women.

But hey, I'm sure the men are just too busy working to spend any more time doing the housework.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The points above all relate to how people decide to organise theirs lives and their balance of work and other things and how it ultimately reflects their individual remuneration.

They certainly don't point to a the systemic underpayment of women relative to men for the exact same job and hours which is what the 'pay gap' tries to do

If I was a women and took the headlines on good faith I'd be pissed off... But it doesn't reflect reality

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

How the hell do they get those 'facts' about housework with any degree of accuracy anyway?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#1cf03ae04766

Here's a good one, article and speech both by women for balance

That article just states the men work more hours then women.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The points above all relate to how people decide to organise theirs lives and their balance of work and other things and how it ultimately reflects their individual remuneration.

They certainly don't point to a the systemic underpayment of women relative to men for the exact same job and hours which is what the 'pay gap' tries to do

If I was a women and took the headlines on good faith I'd be pissed off... But it doesn't reflect reality "

How do you know it doesn't reflect reality though? What exactly are you basing that off?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How the hell do they get those 'facts' about housework with any degree of accuracy anyway?

Survey most likely, but I'm not sure of the details of said survey or if that is even how they work it out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wasn't there a story floating around Hollywood about Bradley Cooper saying he wouldn't take a part unless his co-star Jennifer Laurence got paid equally or more than she was being offered. I'd like to think it's true but it does make me cringe to think a work colleague would have to jump in to make sure his co worker is better paid for the same job.

I can't be bothered to Google if this titillation is true. Is Bradders a feminist for doing that or a smug fucker?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The false reality that equal work is paid less if you are a woman

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The false reality that equal work is paid less if you are a woman

It's a reality alive and kicking today in Galway

I've seen the figures within my own company to prove it

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

That article just states the men work more hours then women. "

It says more than that

But to take your point at its most flippant... That is PRECISELY why quoting an unadjusted average is totally flawed

It simply says that women on AVERAGE earn less (irrespective of what that work is or the number of hours worked)

It DOES NOT mean that women get paid less for equal work as the statistic is often used to say

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The false reality that equal work is paid less if you are a woman

It's a reality alive and kicking today in Galway

I've seen the figures within my own company to prove it"

That's illegal if true and you can bring them to court

That act is in place since the 80s

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That article just states the men work more hours then women.

It says more than that

But to take your point at its most flippant... That is PRECISELY why quoting an unadjusted average is totally flawed

It simply says that women on AVERAGE earn less (irrespective of what that work is or the number of hours worked)

It DOES NOT mean that women get paid less for equal work as the statistic is often used to say "

Did you miss the "hourly" part of my article?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

OK fair enough but it is not adjusted by job/position/rank and therefore still fundamentally flawed

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"OK fair enough but it is not adjusted by job/position/rank and therefore still fundamentally flawed "

https://www.morganmckinley.ie/sites/morganmckinley.ie/files/gender_pay_gap_in_ireland_2016.pdf

A couple of quotes from the article

'In

this report, our research compares salaries of men and women holding the same

positions in companies at entry, junior managerial and managerial level. We have

also looked at the proportion of men versus women holding these positions. '

'Our report finds the average gender pay gap in Ireland in 2016 stands at 20%.

On average, men working in like for like professional jobs earn €12,000 more than

women'

' Financial Services is the main professional industry in Ireland with 19%

of all professionals employed in this sector. It is also a sector that has the highest

gender pay gap of 29%'

'The gender pay gap actually widens with years of experience

from 12% for 0-5 years’ experience through to 28% for 15+ years’

experience'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Discuss? No mam is going tell me what to do

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Lenses you are just digging hole.... That confirms my argument....

Would you agree from the lovely report you just quoted that the main factor for remuneration does in fact seem to be the industry you work in?

Would you also agree that girls have equal access to education in our country and can choose their career path?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I'll quote page two of the same report... Seeing as your are cherry picking quotes... Which is in itself careful manipulation of what is said to paint a false reality

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 08/12/16 22:36:26]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I keep tropical fish in my underpants

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

So as not the bore everyone here's just the best bit

6 | Pay discrimination

Employment Equality Legislation (Employment Equality Acts 1998 -2015) makes

it illegal not to provide for equal pay for like work or to discriminate on the basis of

gender. It would require very rich data to prove that the difference between earnings

is a result of discrimination. Data collected for this report is not sufficient to

establish whether and to what extent pay discrimination might affect professionals.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Lenses you are just digging hole.... That confirms my argument....

Would you agree from the lovely report you just quoted that the main factor for remuneration does in fact seem to be the industry you work in?

Would you also agree that girls have equal access to education in our country and can choose their career path?

It does? which argument are you talking about now?

The one you claimed about career break being the reason hourly averages were different. Well given that women with 15+yrs experience are still paid 28 less than men puts that argument in doubt.

Or maybe you are referring to your claim that job/position/rank isn't taken into account.

Well when you read the Morgan Mckinely report it states that the following pay gaps exist between position

entry level = 8%

Junior manager = 10%

Manager = 15%

Senior manager = 18%

C Titles = 1%

So what's your argument now? That since women know which industries have a large gender pay gap they it's their fault that they didn't avoid them? Well, at least your admitting their is a gender pay then.

tis an awful hole I have gotten myself into alright, no idea how I will get out.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Look very closely at the Ceo gap of a mere 1‰...

Now read back to my original point about what Sheryl Sandberg said.

And read carefully this section from the same report.

It also reported that 1 in 4 males versus 1 in 7 females worked 10 or more hours of

overtime. Although these are marginal differences overall, it could be argued that

the somewhat higher degree of flexibility that males are afforded over females

corresponds to a more senior position of employment. Furthermore, the potential

higher proportion of females working reduced hours equates to lesser experience,

reduced benefits value (pensions/ bonuses which are usually linked as a percentage

to basic salary pay) and therefore an overall earnings gap that is greater than their

male counterparts.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Lenses... Your stats above ignore industry or job and look only at tenure

It is already explained how voluntary disportionality of sector choices between the sexes explain the 'pay gap'

It's a matter of free choice and zero to do with inequality

Inequality means unfairness and there is nothing unfair about freedom of choice

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Look very closely at the Ceo gap of a mere 1‰...

Now read back to my original point about what Sheryl Sandberg said.

And read carefully this section from the same report.

It also reported that 1 in 4 males versus 1 in 7 females worked 10 or more hours of

overtime. Although these are marginal differences overall, it could be argued that

the somewhat higher degree of flexibility that males are afforded over females

corresponds to a more senior position of employment. Furthermore, the potential

higher proportion of females working reduced hours equates to lesser experience,

reduced benefits value (pensions/ bonuses which are usually linked as a percentage

to basic salary pay) and therefore an overall earnings gap that is greater than their

male counterparts."

The Morga Mckinely report only factored in salary and basic bonuses, not pensions.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Very thin ice

Did you miss the bit about reduced experience in the same sentence?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Lenses... Your stats above ignore industry or job and look only at tenure

It is already explained how voluntary disportionality of sector choices between the sexes explain the 'pay gap'

It's a matter of free choice and zero to do with inequality

Inequality means unfairness and there is nothing unfair about freedom of choice "

How do these stats ignore job?

entry level = 8%

Junior manager = 10%

Manager = 15%

Senior manager = 18%

As for industry, here's some stats from the same report on the gender gap

Financial services = 29%

Insurance = 24%

Transportation = 20%

Retail - 9%

Apps, web, ecommerce = 20%

Healthcare = 12%

Freedom of choice? Considering how many people deny there is a gender pay gap I find it funny how you claim women have a free choice. Women who entered these industries years ago, how were they meant to know there was gender pay discrimination? I mean up until an hour ago you said it didn't exist.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Anyway as you can see the pay gap myth is very tenuous

Have you other arguments against my stance that all in all there is a very high degree of equality between men and women in this country?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

BECAUSE BOTH DATA SETS ARE INDEPENDENT

The by industry numbers ignore tenure and the by tenure facts ignore industry

You are just reading a script and ignoring all context

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Very thin ice

Did you miss the bit about reduced experience in the same sentence? "

I didn't. Experience doesn't always equal being better. Also I'm not sure how within 0-5 years that that alleged extra experience should equal an 8% pay increase.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anyway as you can see the pay gap myth is very tenuous "

Is this based on the array of stats and reports you have posted?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I'm not denying there is a gap, women on average earn less than men

BUT

the gap is a simple fact that is clearly explainable by a variety of factors all governed by free choice

And as the report says there is no evidence of discrimination and discrimination is illegal yet its used to trying to paint a picture of systemic inequality which is clearly not the case

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Very thin ice

Did you miss the bit about reduced experience in the same sentence?

I didn't. Experience doesn't always equal being better. Also I'm not sure how within 0-5 years that that alleged extra experience should equal an 8% pay increase. "

I'm giving debating with you, you are just twisting facts round in circles... I'll draw you back AGAIN to how the tenure bracket includes all industries

No experience doesn't always mean better, but it contributes to being better and better people (in the eyes of the boss... As unjust as that is) get promoted.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hate that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'd prefer The Times actually.

Cheers for the discussion, OP!

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By *oghunter33Woman
over a year ago

on the hill NordWest of

"So as not the bore everyone here's just the best bit

6 | Pay discrimination

Employment Equality Legislation (Employment Equality Acts 1998 -2015) makes

it illegal not to provide for equal pay for like work or to discriminate on the basis of

gender. It would require very rich data to prove that the difference between earnings

is a result of discrimination. Data collected for this report is not sufficient to

establish whether and to what extent pay discrimination might affect professionals."

Sure if it's illegal, it doesn't exist, especially in Ireland

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It exists on some level sure, plenty of closed minded old farts running companies.... But overall it most certainly doesn't show that all women are working for free up until April as the tagine goes... That's just abuse of statistics

The best argument is that if women were really underpaid by 14 to 20 percent they would completely force men out of the workforce on value for money alone.... Plenty of companies would be eager for a 20% cost saving

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