FabSwingers.com forum: Do you believe in Rehabilitation for criminals

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

And if so is there a limit?

I ask because of the situation with Raith Rovers in Scotland who have signed a player with a civil case conviction for r*pe but not a criminal one.

And well I'm conflicted.

Initially thoughts were and probably are he shouldn't have such opportunities.

But then I've always thought people should be given the chance to rehabilitate after being punished for their crimes.

Now there are additional circumstances with this case that make me think he shouldn't be allow to make his living this way.

But then what jobs are OK for ex cons and what aren't.

I've gone down a rabbit hole

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By *ilthyNightsCouple
over a year ago

East / North, Cork

Yes I would give someone a job who had served time and paid for their crimes. As long as they had the knowledge and experience necessary. I would keep a closer eye on them though than I would someone else. I wouldn't write someone off for life after a conviction.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Yes I would give someone a job who had served time and paid for their crimes. As long as they had the knowledge and experience necessary. I would keep a closer eye on them though than I would someone else. I wouldn't write someone off for life after a conviction. "

Regardless of what the conviction was for?

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By *ilthyNightsCouple
over a year ago

East / North, Cork

I think so.

I've interviewed and employed quite a few people over the years, and I don't recall ever asking about criminal convictions.

Everyone deserves a second chance

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By *ealitybitesMan
over a year ago

Belfast

Duncan Ferguson was jailed for assault and that made him a hero to many people.

Adam Johnson was rightly vilified for his actions and jail term.

The problem with footballers is that they are seen as role models and clubs make money selling shirts with their names on so it's not like working in a warehouse where they can return to work and keep their heads down.

Every time they step on the pitch 1000's of people are going to offer their opinion on what they think of them and it reflects on those around them including the other players who have no choice in the matter.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I think so.

I've interviewed and employed quite a few people over the years, and I don't recall ever asking about criminal convictions.

Everyone deserves a second chance "

Do you think the type of work matters?

This is starting to feel like an interview

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By *ay_Gatsby_D4Man
over a year ago

Ballsbridge, City Centre

Yeah it’s a complicated one

Theoretically if you repay your debt to society and show remorse then you should be able to rebuild your life, but does the severity and nature of the crime affect this?

Redemption is one of the most powerful narratives in human nature so to deny someone the chance to redeem themselves is a bad thing

So overall, it’s fairly complicated and i don’t know

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Depending on the crime committed and if they are actually sorry for it I would believe rehabilitation is possible. Do I believe that they should get opportunities like others yes but that depends on the crime they committed. You mentioned the player being hired by the Scottish club. I believe people who committed such a crime and violence against women and kids shouldn't be allowed those opportunities. They should burn in hell in my opinion.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Yeah it’s a complicated one

Theoretically if you repay your debt to society and show remorse then you should be able to rebuild your life, but does the severity and nature of the crime affect this?

Redemption is one of the most powerful narratives in human nature so to deny someone the chance to redeem themselves is a bad thing

So overall, it’s fairly complicated and i don’t know "

Thats pretty much the thought process cycle I've gone through. Phrased much better though

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Depending on the crime committed and if they are actually sorry for it I would believe rehabilitation is possible. Do I believe that they should get opportunities like others yes but that depends on the crime they committed. You mentioned the player being hired by the Scottish club. I believe people who committed such a crime and violence against women and kids shouldn't be allowed those opportunities. They should burn in hell in my opinion. "

But theu don't just burn in hell so they either earn a living or sponge off the state.

What level of employment is acceptable?

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By *asual777Man
over a year ago

i travel all over

My initial thoughts are : ‘how miserable is it to dismiss redemption and rehab. Surely if there is a good life that can be created once one has paid their debt to society , then the answer is yes’.

But what is the evidence ? Are rates of reoffending reduced by rehab ? Or is the only answer in some cases and some crimes electronic tagging or something similar ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But theu don't just burn in hell so they either earn a living or sponge off the state.

What level of employment is acceptable?

I'm fairly harsh when it comes to what I would deem fit for people guilty of those crimes but let's just say I don't think they should see the light of day never mind looking for employment.

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By *ustBoWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in Co. Down

Like someone else said I think it's very complicated and all depends on the crime and the circumstances and if they are genuinely remorseful for it.

Sadly there are those who will never be sorry and are inherently evil and will never change but they play the game and fool people into believing they have changed.

I think it has to be taken on individual cases and people as oppose to a one size fits all solution.

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By *rmrs1234Couple
over a year ago

Waterford

Problem being is how do you truly know they are rehabilitated

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Problem being is how do you truly know they are rehabilitated"

Well I guess it's do you believe in the process for all regardless of the individual results?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Depends on severity of the crime, some of the more serious ones you'd really have to wonder is there anyway they can be rehabilitated at all but then again I think murder or r**e should be a life or death sentence as they're after taking or ruining a life already

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By *evinM2020Man
over a year ago

Louth

I read that article about the footballer in Scotland this morning, and as always it made me think of the Mike Tyson trial.

He was convicted of the crime, bu the majority people and media act as if it never happen. He still gets money from advertisers, tv shows and films.

It baffles me how a convicted rapist can be so opening accepted in the celebrity world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 02/02/22 17:04:25]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And if so is there a limit?

Yes.

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By *m389Man
over a year ago

Magherafelt

I’m not sure I believe jail is rehabilitating, it’s punishment sure but does it truly rehabilitate someone?

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By *rmrs1234Couple
over a year ago

Waterford

"Problem being is how do you truly know they are rehabilitated

Well I guess it's do you believe in the process for all regardless of the individual results?

Depends on the crime tbh. With something like what you talk about the answer is no

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By *3nsesMan
over a year ago

Dublin

[Removed by poster at 02/02/22 17:27:38]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Some can be if there still young. Maybe older people too not sure suppose depends on the crime

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By *ewrideMan
over a year ago

Yes. End of.

Not the least bit complicated imo

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By *ewrideMan
over a year ago

"I’m not sure I believe jail is rehabilitating, it’s punishment sure but does it truly rehabilitate someone?"

Not in the least.

It alienates and traumatises

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By *3nsesMan
over a year ago

Dublin

A decision to hire anyone is always based on an interview with the person to gauge what they are like and if you feel they are the right fit for that place of work.

My own decision would also be significantly influenced by those discussions so it is hard to answer a hypothetical.

On saying that I do believe people can be rehabilitated, but not everyone can so I don't think a blanket policy/approach should be taken to situations.

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By *ewrideMan
over a year ago

"Problem being is how do you truly know they are rehabilitated"

You don't and can't.

You have to think of what justice is supposed to look like, and what things like incarceration are actually meant to achieve

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By *ewrideMan
over a year ago

"A decision to hire anyone is always based on an interview with the person to gauge what they are like and if you feel they are the right fit for that place of work.

My own decision would also be significantly influenced by those discussions so it is hard to answer a hypothetical.

On saying that I do believe people can be rehabilitated, but not everyone can so I don't think a blanket policy/approach should be taken to situations. "

Employers might not be the best people to administer justice

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By *3nsesMan
over a year ago

Dublin

"A decision to hire anyone is always based on an interview with the person to gauge what they are like and if you feel they are the right fit for that place of work.

My own decision would also be significantly influenced by those discussions so it is hard to answer a hypothetical.

On saying that I do believe people can be rehabilitated, but not everyone can so I don't think a blanket policy/approach should be taken to situations.

Employers might not be the best people to administer justice"

Hence the reason they aren't asked to administer justice.

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By *ewrideMan
over a year ago

"A decision to hire anyone is always based on an interview with the person to gauge what they are like and if you feel they are the right fit for that place of work.

My own decision would also be significantly influenced by those discussions so it is hard to answer a hypothetical.

On saying that I do believe people can be rehabilitated, but not everyone can so I don't think a blanket policy/approach should be taken to situations.

Employers might not be the best people to administer justice

Hence the reason they aren't asked to administer justice. "

Lol, read over your post again

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By *3nsesMan
over a year ago

Dublin

"A decision to hire anyone is always based on an interview with the person to gauge what they are like and if you feel they are the right fit for that place of work.

My own decision would also be significantly influenced by those discussions so it is hard to answer a hypothetical.

On saying that I do believe people can be rehabilitated, but not everyone can so I don't think a blanket policy/approach should be taken to situations.

Employers might not be the best people to administer justice

Hence the reason they aren't asked to administer justice.

Lol, read over your post again"

I did. My point remains.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was in a bar in Amsterdam once and all the staff were ex prisoners. It was some kind of government rehabilitation scheme.

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By *willfindyouWoman
over a year ago

Not looking to meet new peeps.

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By *oadrunner2000Man
over a year ago

city centre

"I read that article about the footballer in Scotland this morning, and as always it made me think of the Mike Tyson trial.

He was convicted of the crime, bu the majority people and media act as if it never happen. He still gets money from advertisers, tv shows and films.

It baffles me how a convicted rapist can be so opening accepted in the celebrity world. "

I think Michael Jackson is an even bigger example of this... Never criminaly convicted but made huge settlements. Multiple allegations yet still has millions of followers.

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By *oadrunner2000Man
over a year ago

city centre

"I think so.

I've interviewed and employed quite a few people over the years, and I don't recall ever asking about criminal convictions.

Everyone deserves a second chance "

I suppose you would have to think about the people they would be working next to. Last thing you want is to put a Convicted rapist working with other females possibly putting them in danger.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Rapists pedophiles and murderer's deserve no second chance in life and should be locked up for life. Shouldn't be given the chance or even the chance to walk outside a prison gate again never mind a job. Footballers are role models for young kids and should be leading by example.

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By *ifestooshort9999Couple
over a year ago

Dublin

What about an unvaccinated person? Considering your comments on the forum regarding them. Drugs, r*pe, violence are okay, but not unvaccinated people? Just curious, thanks

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By *ilthyNightsCouple
over a year ago

East / North, Cork

What about an unvaccinated person? Considering your comments on the forum regarding them. Drugs, r*pe, violence are okay, but not unvaccinated people? Just curious, thanks

If you remember correctly I had a vulnerable person close to me who I needed to protect from covid. That person has since been allowed to be vaccinated, and everyone else close to me is boosted too so I feel free to interact more closely with unvaccinated people. Thanks for the concern though.

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By *heekyChap93Man
over a year ago

Depends on the crime and the job, wouldn't hire a pedophile to be a school caretaker like! They don't deserve no chance at life, But most people deserve a second chance at some sort of life.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What about an unvaccinated person? Considering your comments on the forum regarding them. Drugs, r*pe, violence are okay, but not unvaccinated people? Just curious, thanks

Can antivaxxers be rehabilitated?!

I know I won't be

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By *ilthyNightsCouple
over a year ago

East / North, Cork

"Depends on the crime and the job, wouldn't hire a pedophile to be a school caretaker like! They don't deserve no chance at life, But most people deserve a second chance at some sort of life."

People who work with or around kids or the vulnerable need garda vetting, so noone who commits violent or sexual crimes would be allowed to work in that kind of role.

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By *ilthyNightsCouple
over a year ago

East / North, Cork

Also don't forget that if people leaving prison aren't given the opportunity to work and become a taxpayer, then instead they will go on the dole and be a drain on everyone who does work. They are also way more likely to slip back into old habits and reoffend. From a purely practical and financial point of view, working makes sense.

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By *ubal1Man
over a year ago

Newry Down

The whole issue of crime and criminology is very complex; the vast majority of criminals in prison suffer from a variety of mental illness, especially personality disorders which are very difficult to treat or ameliorate.

Prisons essentially warehouse criminals, with very little rehabilitation taking place because of the costs involved.

The British and Irish systems have changed little since Victorian times. The Scandinavians have aore enlightened approach to crime and the reintegration of criminals to society.

Admittedly there are very dangerous criminals, who have transgressed societal norms such as the racist Anders Breivik who has had a very severe form of Narcissistic Personality Disorder that was actually diagnosed before he even went to school.

His genes loaded the gun and his dysfunctional formative environment pulled the trigger.

Locking prisoners in their cells for 23 hours every day is wasteful and simply pointless.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 04/02/22 15:42:02]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't know about this case in particular i will look it up, but in general i do think there's a good chance of rehabilitation. It does depend of the severity of it and how many repeat offending there is. I would like to think everyone is entitled to a glimmer of hope to recover.

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By *ubal1Man
over a year ago

Newry Down

The most progressive units within the British HMP prison system is Grendon.

Originally established as a unit for treating dangerous and severe personality disorders; very strict criteria for entry including a very high score 25+ on the Hare PCL-R system for measuring psychopathy.

But a tiny percentage of an escalating prison population in UK is given an option to be treated.

By far the most dangerous prisoner in UK is Levi Belfield, who has a double WLO Whole Life Order; can never be readmitted to society. Just too risky.

Eradicating the causes of crime will eventually be the solution, but that won't happen for at least another 100 years!

Criminogenic formative environments are the prime cause of recidivism.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Petty crime yes.. a vile crime like r@pe or againt kids hell no should not be allowed esp one in the public eye

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Someone can all be rehabilitated.it then comes down to what was the severity of the offence and whether we as a society can absolve this person for what they have done. People can change but sometimes it doesn't matter they gmhsve changed the wrong they have done is too severe

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By *entakuruMan
over a year ago

Exeter

The problem with footballers is that they are seen as role models "

And that is a problem considering if many of them weren't quite naturally decent at kicking a ball around they'd just be another annoying local bellend who you'd go out of your way to avoid if you saw them in the high street on a Saturday night after the pubs closed. Elevating people to godlike status because they have talent then acting surprised when they turn out to be perfectly normal people or have a nasty darkside is ridiculous. Talent doesn't make anyone a better human.

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By *ewrideMan
over a year ago

"Depends on the crime and the job, wouldn't hire a pedophile to be a school caretaker like! They don't deserve no chance at life, But most people deserve a second chance at some sort of life."

Certain jobs require Garda vetting, and a conviction of that nature probably wouldn't ever be spent, plus they'd be on a register

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By *rMac88Man
over a year ago

Dublin

Personally no I don't and I've qualified experience with criminals.

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By *ewrideMan
over a year ago

"I don't know about this case in particular i will look it up, but in general i do think there's a good chance of rehabilitation. It does depend of the severity of it and how many repeat offending there is. I would like to think everyone is entitled to a glimmer of hope to recover. "

David Goodwillie's criminal case was thrown out because of a lack of evidence.

He and his assailant instead faced a civil case, and were found guilty on the balance of probability, and ordered to pay £100,000 in compensation.

He hasn't spent any time in jail, but he also doesn't have a criminal conviction for this.

Whatever happened that night doesn't reflect well on him, even if there isn't clear evidence or it falls short of a criminal charge.

But dealing with this through civil law is murky, and the social justice is arguably worse.

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By *ewrideMan
over a year ago

"Personally no I don't and I've qualified experience with criminals."

You definitely shouldn't be working where you are so

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By *ubal1Man
over a year ago

Newry Down

The vast majority of those in prison come from the lowest strata of society; or from ethnic groups that suffer most racism and prejudice in their states.

Eradicate poverty and a lot of crime dissipates.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

David Goodwillie's criminal case was thrown out because of a lack of evidence.

He and his assailant instead faced a civil case, and were found guilty on the balance of probability, and ordered to pay £100,000 in compensation.

He hasn't spent any time in jail, but he also doesn't have a criminal conviction for this.

Whatever happened that night doesn't reflect well on him, even if there isn't clear evidence or it falls short of a criminal charge.

But dealing with this through civil law is murky, and the social justice is arguably worse."

Tho if it was the average male next door non celeb the people would have him hung even if innocent

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By *inkywife1981Couple
over a year ago

A town near you

Depends on the nature of the crime.

Would anyone want Lar*y Mur*hy living next door?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It depends,

I grew up in a very rough area and I've seen some horrible people, many of which I despised completely turn their lives around.

So, yes.

But there is a limit. For example if someone was a know child abuser then I could never accept them as someone changed.

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By *ubal1Man
over a year ago

Newry Down

"Depends on the nature of the crime.

Would anyone want Lar*y Mur*hy living next door?"

Absolutely not. That is the type of individual who needs to be monitored until the day he departs.

I often wonder what drives an individual to behave in this manner; some EEG brain wave researchers have speculated that their brain structures and neuro chemistry is faulty from birth or has been damaged by physical or emotionally traumatic injury.

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By *inkywife1981Couple
over a year ago

A town near you

"Depends on the nature of the crime.

Would anyone want Lar*y Mur*hy living next door?

Absolutely not. That is the type of individual who needs to be monitored until the day he departs.

What ever the reasons for their behaviour they should be treated as the animals they are

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By *rMac88Man
over a year ago

Dublin

"Personally no I don't and I've qualified experience with criminals.

You definitely shouldn't be working where you are so"

I'm sure the people I've helped / saved will have a differing opinion

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By *ac1234Man
over a year ago

letterkenny

Depends on the type of crime and the behaviour of the individual before getting caught.

Without putting my foot in my mouth, I’d say it should be on a case by case basis. Even the definition of criminal is subjective. Like you can be arrested for smoking a joint or something stupid or be a murderer and in both cases classified a “criminal”

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By *al2001Man
over a year ago

kildare

"Personally no I don't and I've qualified experience with criminals.

You definitely shouldn't be working where you are so

I'm sure the people I've helped / saved will have a differing opinion "

you have helped and saved criminals,so you do believe in rehabilitation so?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/02/22 08:31:35]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's interesting is the psychology people involved in these crimes or any serious crimes.

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By *jallMan
over a year ago

Cork/Sligo

"I was in a bar in Amsterdam once and all the staff were ex prisoners. It was some kind of government rehabilitation scheme."

So...they were still behind the bars...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I was in a bar in Amsterdam once and all the staff were ex prisoners. It was some kind of government rehabilitation scheme.

So...they were still behind the bars...

Lol

on a serious note great initiative really.

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By *ubal1Man
over a year ago

Newry Down

"What's interesting is the psychology people involved in these crimes or any serious crimes. "

Criminology and the importance of criminogenic environments is a fascinating subject which draws upon many other specialisms, such as:

Psychology

Psychiatry

Neurobiology, etc.

A criminogenic environment is one which encourages criminal behaviour.

Studies have found that a very high percentage have Borderline Personality Disorder, the genesis of which is traumatising abuse, often sexual abuse in childhood, within dysfunctional families, where alcohol or drug abuse and parental mental illness is evident.

Intergenerational transmission passes the problems on, into the next generation (of criminals).

Breaking the cycle by a variety of interventions lessens crime and the damage and cost to society

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Once a person has served their sentence the slate is wiped clean, unfortunately the feelings police will inevitably have something to say about that, in UK victims of crime have the chance to meet their assailants in the form of restorative justice and can ask questions that many have unanswered, this is a great idea in my opinio

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By *ilthyNightsCouple
over a year ago

East / North, Cork

"Once a person has served their sentence the slate is wiped clean, unfortunately the feelings police will inevitably have something to say about that, in UK victims of crime have the chance to meet their assailants in the form of restorative justice and can ask questions that many have unanswered, this is a great idea in my opinio"

Kindof. Some serious covictions are never considered spent and must be announced to potential employers on asking. Others that involve sexual offenses or those involving children or the vulnerable will be on record for life. Some offenses will mean restrictions of travel for life. No such thing as a clean slate for some offenders.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What's interesting is the psychology people involved in these crimes or any serious crimes.

Criminology and the importance of criminogenic environments is a fascinating subject which draws upon many other specialisms, such as:

Psychology

Psychiatry

Neurobiology, etc.

A criminogenic environment is one which encourages criminal behaviour.

Intergenerational transmission passes the problems on, into the next generation (of criminals).

Breaking the cycle by a variety of interventions lessens crime and the damage and cost to society

Definitely i do find the criminology very interesting pity not much jobs in Ireland not sure why but it's being said in colleges that one would have to think of travelling for a job in it.

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By *icko48Man
over a year ago

dublin

It’s a hard question to be honest

But Garda vetting can mean u haven’t been caught

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