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But the above answering post is a little too simple and, sorry to say, not understanding of those brave . . perhaps that should be "stupid" enough . . to try to tip-toe through the minefield of red, righteous tape. 
Councils rake in huge amounts of "taxes" from "adult venues" . . and then other committee members over-use their powers to close them down!
Just about the ONLY place that you can run a club successfully is London as they are permitted separate rules than other councils . . then again London is a den of inequity anyway, isn't it.  | |||
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"We had our swingers club in Greenwich shut down for operating without a business license. As a private organization, the club was not breaking any rules, but because it accepted donations " Pretty hefty donations from what I recall to attend one of your parties  | |||
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"We had our swingers club in Greenwich shut down for operating without a business license. As a private organization, the club was not breaking any rules, but because it accepted donations Pretty hefty donations from what I recall to attend one of your parties "Didn't know there was a swingers club in Greenwich, but in most cases, if you are to run such establishments, you need to be whistle clean on every rule and regulation. Society abhors such places and councils will use any excuse to shit them down.  | |||
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"Sad to hear this and know friends who had their "private club" broken up by "concerned neighbours".
But the above answering post is a little too simple and, sorry to say, not understanding of those brave . . perhaps that should be "stupid" enough . . to try to tip-toe through the minefield of red, righteous tape.
Councils rake in huge amounts of "taxes" from "adult venues" . . and then other committee members over-use their powers to close them down!
Just about the ONLY place that you can run a club successfully is London as they are permitted separate rules than other councils . . then again London is a den of inequity anyway, isn't it. "if the only place you could run a club is london then you would not have clubs thrieving in the places like the midlands... or the north west.... clubs that work with their local councils are the ones that grow and thrive... those who don't will always been in fights..... | |||
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"Sad to hear this and know friends who had their "private club" broken up by "concerned neighbours".
But the above answering post is a little too simple and, sorry to say, not understanding of those brave . . perhaps that should be "stupid" enough . . to try to tip-toe through the minefield of red, righteous tape.
Councils rake in huge amounts of "taxes" from "adult venues" . . and then other committee members over-use their powers to close them down!
Just about the ONLY place that you can run a club successfully is London as they are permitted separate rules than other councils . . then again London is a den of inequity anyway, isn't it.
if the only place you could run a club is london then you would not have clubs thrieving in the places like the midlands... or the north west....
clubs that work with their local councils are the ones that grow and thrive... those who don't will always been in fights....."Not sure if that is strictly true in fairness. London is a funny old place. I know even the most established fetish clubs such as TGs have had man struggles over the years with finding venues. Possibly slightly easier nowadays than before as fetish has entered into mainstream a little more...but I know a few years back, even though they were a well run established club even then, there would sometimes be problems. | |||
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"If you run parties and take money, you should declare it. If there are repercussions of any sort, you don't get the support of the licensing or police if you are not legit. Clubs can get loads of hassle but those who are above board, rideal the problems out and get great support from the authorities. We have a fantastic working relationship with the council, licensing, police and public health but we are squeaky clean, declare everything and 100% legit. So I have never experienced discrimination as they can see we are business people and providing a safe and above board service. It's the only way a business and more importantly it's members can operate as then the correct insurance is also obtained. I have a personal gripe with people who run parties all the time and don't declare them. Odd ones, I don't have a problem, but when someone is running regular events and turning a profit, it should be declared as a business. It may sound like sour grapes and to some extent it is. Clubs have massive overheads and those who are legit, have big firey hoops to jump through. Clubs have been shutting down across the country due to falling numbers. If people supported their clubs more and not the private parties who charge an entrance or take a 'donation' then businesses wouldn't be folding. Thankfully we are ok, but everytime I hear a club is struggling, it makes me sad and angry. " Spot on .... Support your club or its back to dogging | |||
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"nope.... a lot of clubs decide to work with their local councils from the offset... others don't.... the ones who don't and think they are better than everyone else are the ones that don't survive" Exactly this  | |||
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"You would assume that swinger clubs are completely legal in 21st century Britain and they certainly should be in a modern, “liberated” democracy, yet although nobody can object of such clubs on moral grounds, there are ways which can indirectly affect such activities taking place. In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain there is absolutely no question about it. When people in those countries attend a swinger party in a swinger club they are attending a legal event in a legal establishment. In Britain, the water is actually quite murky simply because there is no such a thing as a “Swinger Club Licence” and although in principle there is no Act of Parliament that directly defines swinging as being illegal, there is absolutely nothing that defines a swinger party being an illegal event, nor anything specifically forbid the setting up of premises for the purpose of holding such events however the reality is much more complicated, purely in the definition and the wording used in which such events are being classified under. For example, Brothels are illegal, but there are Sauna Parlours which are technically the same thing, but with a much less frightening description from its original classification. Individual councils apply different legislations to regulate the use of premises in addition to the normal Planning and Building Regulations which are required for any kind of change in premises whether material and/or of use, we did indeed consult both the Police and the Licencing Authority with regards to the status of the Club and this is probably what went against us… yes for doing things legally in a murky legislation. We were told that we would have been better off saying that we were opening a Club for Gays and it would have been no problems, in fact London is full of Gay Saunas BUT I do not know a Swinger Club owner that has not had problem with the council or currently legally fighting to keep their business open! So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – That’s what I think anyway and YES we are discriminated "Pretty sure brothels have been legal for a while now. You forgot to answer the question of whether or not you ever applied for the correct licences, once it was adjudged you were running a business, rather than holding private parties? | |||
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"You would assume that swinger clubs are completely legal in 21st century Britain and they certainly should be in a modern, “liberated” democracy, yet although nobody can object of such clubs on moral grounds, there are ways which can indirectly affect such activities taking place. In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain there is absolutely no question about it. When people in those countries attend a swinger party in a swinger club they are attending a legal event in a legal establishment. In Britain, the water is actually quite murky simply because there is no such a thing as a “Swinger Club Licence” and although in principle there is no Act of Parliament that directly defines swinging as being illegal, there is absolutely nothing that defines a swinger party being an illegal event, nor anything specifically forbid the setting up of premises for the purpose of holding such events however the reality is much more complicated, purely in the definition and the wording used in which such events are being classified under. For example, Brothels are illegal, but there are Sauna Parlours which are technically the same thing, but with a much less frightening description from its original classification. Individual councils apply different legislations to regulate the use of premises in addition to the normal Planning and Building Regulations which are required for any kind of change in premises whether material and/or of use, we did indeed consult both the Police and the Licencing Authority with regards to the status of the Club and this is probably what went against us… yes for doing things legally in a murky legislation. We were told that we would have been better off saying that we were opening a Club for Gays and it would have been no problems, in fact London is full of Gay Saunas BUT I do not know a Swinger Club owner that has not had problem with the council or currently legally fighting to keep their business open! So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – That’s what I think anyway and YES we are discriminated "You do know what is happening to London nightlife don't you? Countless bars and clubs closing down, new licences being refused, police and licensing authorities seemingly in cahoots in imposing draconian licensing conditions such as photo ID and fingerprinting mandatory for entrance. This is a huge problem not you being discrimnated against. And given that background, do you honestly find it surprising that you were jumped on? And London is most definitely not full of gay saunas, you make it sound like they are everywhere which is far from the truth | |||
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"You would assume that swinger clubs are completely legal in 21st century Britain and they certainly should be in a modern, “liberated” democracy, yet although nobody can object of such clubs on moral grounds, there are ways which can indirectly affect such activities taking place. In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain there is absolutely no question about it. When people in those countries attend a swinger party in a swinger club they are attending a legal event in a legal establishment. In Britain, the water is actually quite murky simply because there is no such a thing as a “Swinger Club Licence” and although in principle there is no Act of Parliament that directly defines swinging as being illegal, there is absolutely nothing that defines a swinger party being an illegal event, nor anything specifically forbid the setting up of premises for the purpose of holding such events however the reality is much more complicated, purely in the definition and the wording used in which such events are being classified under. For example, Brothels are illegal, but there are Sauna Parlours which are technically the same thing, but with a much less frightening description from its original classification. Individual councils apply different legislations to regulate the use of premises in addition to the normal Planning and Building Regulations which are required for any kind of change in premises whether material and/or of use, we did indeed consult both the Police and the Licencing Authority with regards to the status of the Club and this is probably what went against us… yes for doing things legally in a murky legislation. We were told that we would have been better off saying that we were opening a Club for Gays and it would have been no problems, in fact London is full of Gay Saunas BUT I do not know a Swinger Club owner that has not had problem with the council or currently legally fighting to keep their business open! So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – That’s what I think anyway and YES we are discriminated
Pretty sure brothels have been legal for a while now.
You forgot to answer the question of whether or not you ever applied for the correct licences, once it was adjudged you were running a business, rather than holding private parties?"Yes absolutely we continue to run private parties as a legitimate business because we cannot open a Club... if only there was a Swinger Club Licence!!! It does not exist and we would refuse to apply for a Sex Licence because we do not have anyone paid to provide sexual services!!! We are an easy prey because Swingers are peaceful normal people who enjoy having fun with like-minded people behind closed doors and it should be nobody's business what our preferences are... try telling off a couple of Gays kissing publicly in a Pub and you would end up in the news that's why we are discriminated because we DO NOT want people to know what we are doing  | |||
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"You would assume that swinger clubs are completely legal in 21st century Britain and they certainly should be in a modern, “liberated” democracy, yet although nobody can object of such clubs on moral grounds, there are ways which can indirectly affect such activities taking place. In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain there is absolutely no question about it. When people in those countries attend a swinger party in a swinger club they are attending a legal event in a legal establishment. In Britain, the water is actually quite murky simply because there is no such a thing as a “Swinger Club Licence” and although in principle there is no Act of Parliament that directly defines swinging as being illegal, there is absolutely nothing that defines a swinger party being an illegal event, nor anything specifically forbid the setting up of premises for the purpose of holding such events however the reality is much more complicated, purely in the definition and the wording used in which such events are being classified under. For example, Brothels are illegal, but there are Sauna Parlours which are technically the same thing, but with a much less frightening description from its original classification. Individual councils apply different legislations to regulate the use of premises in addition to the normal Planning and Building Regulations which are required for any kind of change in premises whether material and/or of use, we did indeed consult both the Police and the Licencing Authority with regards to the status of the Club and this is probably what went against us… yes for doing things legally in a murky legislation. We were told that we would have been better off saying that we were opening a Club for Gays and it would have been no problems, in fact London is full of Gay Saunas BUT I do not know a Swinger Club owner that has not had problem with the council or currently legally fighting to keep their business open! So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – That’s what I think anyway and YES we are discriminated
You do know what is happening to London nightlife don't you? Countless bars and clubs closing down, new licences being refused, police and licensing authorities seemingly in cahoots in imposing draconian licensing conditions such as photo ID and fingerprinting mandatory for entrance.
This is a huge problem not you being discrimnated against.
And given that background, do you honestly find it surprising that you were jumped on?
And London is most definitely not full of gay saunas, you make it sound like they are everywhere which is far from the truth"Yes you are absolutely right, the most upsetting thing is happening in Soho an area that has always been known for the Sex Industry and all the Clubs are being forced to close down. With regards to Gay Sauna well there are also chains of the same brand in more areas in London but with all respect, I am not against the Gay Scene (they are the one that introduced NO means 'no') but I was making a point that I feel at times SU SWINGERS we are discriminated for being so polite and quiet and peaceful species while we ought to be protected and respected because we are no trouble at all | |||
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"You would assume that swinger clubs are completely legal in 21st century Britain and they certainly should be in a modern, “liberated” democracy, yet although nobody can object of such clubs on moral grounds, there are ways which can indirectly affect such activities taking place. In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain there is absolutely no question about it. When people in those countries attend a swinger party in a swinger club they are attending a legal event in a legal establishment. In Britain, the water is actually quite murky simply because there is no such a thing as a “Swinger Club Licence” and although in principle there is no Act of Parliament that directly defines swinging as being illegal, there is absolutely nothing that defines a swinger party being an illegal event, nor anything specifically forbid the setting up of premises for the purpose of holding such events however the reality is much more complicated, purely in the definition and the wording used in which such events are being classified under. For example, Brothels are illegal, but there are Sauna Parlours which are technically the same thing, but with a much less frightening description from its original classification. Individual councils apply different legislations to regulate the use of premises in addition to the normal Planning and Building Regulations which are required for any kind of change in premises whether material and/or of use, we did indeed consult both the Police and the Licencing Authority with regards to the status of the Club and this is probably what went against us… yes for doing things legally in a murky legislation. We were told that we would have been better off saying that we were opening a Club for Gays and it would have been no problems, in fact London is full of Gay Saunas BUT I do not know a Swinger Club owner that has not had problem with the council or currently legally fighting to keep their business open! So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – That’s what I think anyway and YES we are discriminated
You do know what is happening to London nightlife don't you? Countless bars and clubs closing down, new licences being refused, police and licensing authorities seemingly in cahoots in imposing draconian licensing conditions such as photo ID and fingerprinting mandatory for entrance.
This is a huge problem not you being discrimnated against.
And given that background, do you honestly find it surprising that you were jumped on?
And London is most definitely not full of gay saunas, you make it sound like they are everywhere which is far from the truth
Yes you are absolutely right, the most upsetting thing is happening in Soho an area that has always been known for the Sex Industry and all the Clubs are being forced to close down.
With regards to Gay Sauna well there are also chains of the same brand in more areas in London but with all respect, I am not against the Gay Scene (they are the one that introduced NO means 'no') but I was making a point that I feel at times SU SWINGERS we are discriminated for being so polite and quiet and peaceful species while we ought to be protected and respected because we are no trouble at all "It's not just Soho, Vauxhall has been virtually destroyed in the last couple of years. It does increasingly come across that you have an issue with London;s LGBT scene because you are constantly referencing them in a negative way. Are you sating that the gay scene is impolite, disrespectful and not peaceful? | |||
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" Yes absolutely we continue to run private parties as a legitimate business because we cannot open a Club... if only there was a Swinger Club Licence!!! It does not exist and we would refuse to apply for a Sex Licence because we do not have anyone paid to provide sexual services!!! We are an easy prey because Swingers are peaceful normal people who enjoy having fun with like-minded people behind closed doors and it should be nobody's business what our preferences are... try telling off a couple of Gays kissing publicly in a Pub and you would end up in the news that's why we are discriminated because we DO NOT want people to know what we are doing "From what I can see of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982, paid sexual services is not the criteria here, but nudity in front of a watching audience. To me it still looks like you were trying to dodge your responsibilities, and are now trying to smear gay people with some odd reverse discrimination rant. All of us self-employed folk have a choice between doing everything above board, or taking a chance, risking the consequences and accepting them when it goes tits up. Anything else just risks looking a bit childish tbh. | |||
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"You would assume that swinger clubs are completely legal in 21st century Britain and they certainly should be in a modern, “liberated” democracy, yet although nobody can object of such clubs on moral grounds, there are ways which can indirectly affect such activities taking place. In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain there is absolutely no question about it. When people in those countries attend a swinger party in a swinger club they are attending a legal event in a legal establishment. In Britain, the water is actually quite murky simply because there is no such a thing as a “Swinger Club Licence” and although in principle there is no Act of Parliament that directly defines swinging as being illegal, there is absolutely nothing that defines a swinger party being an illegal event, nor anything specifically forbid the setting up of premises for the purpose of holding such events however the reality is much more complicated, purely in the definition and the wording used in which such events are being classified under. For example, Brothels are illegal, but there are Sauna Parlours which are technically the same thing, but with a much less frightening description from its original classification. Individual councils apply different legislations to regulate the use of premises in addition to the normal Planning and Building Regulations which are required for any kind of change in premises whether material and/or of use, we did indeed consult both the Police and the Licencing Authority with regards to the status of the Club and this is probably what went against us… yes for doing things legally in a murky legislation. We were told that we would have been better off saying that we were opening a Club for Gays and it would have been no problems, in fact London is full of Gay Saunas BUT I do not know a Swinger Club owner that has not had problem with the council or currently legally fighting to keep their business open! So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – That’s what I think anyway and YES we are discriminated
You do know what is happening to London nightlife don't you? Countless bars and clubs closing down, new licences being refused, police and licensing authorities seemingly in cahoots in imposing draconian licensing conditions such as photo ID and fingerprinting mandatory for entrance.
This is a huge problem not you being discrimnated against.
And given that background, do you honestly find it surprising that you were jumped on?
And London is most definitely not full of gay saunas, you make it sound like they are everywhere which is far from the truth
Yes you are absolutely right, the most upsetting thing is happening in Soho an area that has always been known for the Sex Industry and all the Clubs are being forced to close down.
With regards to Gay Sauna well there are also chains of the same brand in more areas in London but with all respect, I am not against the Gay Scene (they are the one that introduced NO means 'no') but I was making a point that I feel at times SU SWINGERS we are discriminated for being so polite and quiet and peaceful species while we ought to be protected and respected because we are no trouble at all
It's not just Soho, Vauxhall has been virtually destroyed in the last couple of years.
It does increasingly come across that you have an issue with London;s LGBT scene because you are constantly referencing them in a negative way. Are you sating that the gay scene is impolite, disrespectful and not peaceful? "Not at all, quite the opposite! I think Gays are more a stronger community and stick together than Swingers do! I feel that because Swingers likes to go home quietly and do not wish to let other people know what they have been up to it goes in fact against us!!! For example this Forum is used to slag on people while I feel we ought to become more a Community of Swingers and help one another! That's All | |||
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"nope.... a lot of clubs decide to work with their local councils from the offset... others don't.... the ones who don't and think they are better than everyone else are the ones that don't survive" This! And we know from personal experience  | |||
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"I feel we ought to become more a Community of Swingers and help one another!" We didn't start swinging to help others make a tidy, and questionably legal, profit, we did it purely for our enjoyment. Whether your venture succeeds or fails, there will always be proper, legal and fully above-board clubs we can go to. Sorry | |||
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"nope.... a lot of clubs decide to work with their local councils from the offset... others don't.... the ones who don't and think they are better than everyone else are the ones that don't survive This! And we know from personal experience "Perhaps you would like to share your 'personal experience' with us? | |||
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"I feel we ought to become more a Community of Swingers and help one another! We didn't start swinging to help others make a tidy, and questionably legal, profit, we did it purely for our enjoyment. Whether your venture succeeds or fails, there will always be proper, legal and fully above-board clubs we can go to. Sorry" Freedom of choice is something I treasure most! There are also places you can go dogging which are relatively FoC if you can afford the firs investment on a car! | |||
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"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun. "  | |||
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"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun. "none of which as far as i can see has anything to do with a club,as a profit making venture, being required to comply with regulations on several grounds including ,yes, the dreaded h&s safety grounds. | |||
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"I think swingers are a pretty non excepting lots as they are. Look how many clubs ban TVs /ts. Or pass derogatory remarks. "I don't think that being a swinger means you are more or less likely to hold specific beliefs/traits regarding discrimination. | |||
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"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun.
none of which as far as i can see has anything to do with a club,as a profit making venture, being required to comply with regulations on several grounds including ,yes, the dreaded h&s safety grounds."I was responding to the title of the thread. If you look at what AbFabs is going through then you would see that some people just dislike swingers for being swingers and want to shut down clubs for any reason they can. Not every council is open for cooperation because some are run by bigots because bigots are allowed to vote too. | |||
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"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun.
im sorry but i still cant see the 'bigotry'...nothing has been mentioned by the OP to suggest bigotry...just non-compliance with the same rules that apply to anyone..
none of which as far as i can see has anything to do with a club,as a profit making venture, being required to comply with regulations on several grounds including ,yes, the dreaded h&s safety grounds.
I was responding to the title of the thread. If you look at what AbFabs is going through then you would see that some people just dislike swingers for being swingers and want to shut down clubs for any reason they can. Not every council is open for cooperation because some are run by bigots because bigots are allowed to vote too." | |||
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"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun.
im sorry but i still cant see the 'bigotry'...nothing has been mentioned by the OP to suggest bigotry...just non-compliance with the same rules that apply to anyone..
none of which as far as i can see has anything to do with a club,as a profit making venture, being required to comply with regulations on several grounds including ,yes, the dreaded h&s safety grounds.
I was responding to the title of the thread. If you look at what AbFabs is going through then you would see that some people just dislike swingers for being swingers and want to shut down clubs for any reason they can. Not every council is open for cooperation because some are run by bigots because bigots are allowed to vote too."I was referring to bigots in the council that are trying to shut down AbFabs not CS. If you look at what they say about the club, it's clear they just don't like what it is. | |||
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"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun.
im sorry but i still cant see the 'bigotry'...nothing has been mentioned by the OP to suggest bigotry...just non-compliance with the same rules that apply to anyone..
none of which as far as i can see has anything to do with a club,as a profit making venture, being required to comply with regulations on several grounds including ,yes, the dreaded h&s safety grounds.
I was responding to the title of the thread. If you look at what AbFabs is going through then you would see that some people just dislike swingers for being swingers and want to shut down clubs for any reason they can. Not every council is open for cooperation because some are run by bigots because bigots are allowed to vote too.
I was referring to bigots in the council that are trying to shut down AbFabs not CS. If you look at what they say about the club, it's clear they just don't like what it is. "I thought the issue Abfabs had was around a lack of planning permission? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun.
im sorry but i still cant see the 'bigotry'...nothing has been mentioned by the OP to suggest bigotry...just non-compliance with the same rules that apply to anyone..
none of which as far as i can see has anything to do with a club,as a profit making venture, being required to comply with regulations on several grounds including ,yes, the dreaded h&s safety grounds.
I was responding to the title of the thread. If you look at what AbFabs is going through then you would see that some people just dislike swingers for being swingers and want to shut down clubs for any reason they can. Not every council is open for cooperation because some are run by bigots because bigots are allowed to vote too.
I was referring to bigots in the council that are trying to shut down AbFabs not CS. If you look at what they say about the club, it's clear they just don't like what it is.
I thought the issue Abfabs had was around a lack of planning permission?"That's an issue about whether the dungeon should be there or not. But some councillors have openly said they want the place shut dungeon or no dungeon. | |||
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 | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun.
im sorry but i still cant see the 'bigotry'...nothing has been mentioned by the OP to suggest bigotry...just non-compliance with the same rules that apply to anyone..
none of which as far as i can see has anything to do with a club,as a profit making venture, being required to comply with regulations on several grounds including ,yes, the dreaded h&s safety grounds.
I was responding to the title of the thread. If you look at what AbFabs is going through then you would see that some people just dislike swingers for being swingers and want to shut down clubs for any reason they can. Not every council is open for cooperation because some are run by bigots because bigots are allowed to vote too.
I was referring to bigots in the council that are trying to shut down AbFabs not CS. If you look at what they say about the club, it's clear they just don't like what it is.
I thought the issue Abfabs had was around a lack of planning permission?
That's an issue about whether the dungeon should be there or not. But some councillors have openly said they want the place shut dungeon or no dungeon. "I think it is obvious to anyone that some people will be opposed to a swingers club. Is it hardly a surprise that when rules are breached, they are jumped on by some councillors? I'm not saying it's right (far from it) but it;s beyond me why they would give the council the ammunition they need | |||
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"there is always the consideration that if you are now claiming that you are now not a business.... but you are charging people and you are now somekind of "not for profit organisation".... but since you are not a business...i think there can be an arguement to say you shouldn't be in the club review section since you aren't by your own admission a club....or a business! "Fabio, as a northerner and the frequent voice of reason on the forums - did you see channel 4 episode of 'without prejudice' when the owner of la chambre went on it? | |||
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"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun.
im sorry but i still cant see the 'bigotry'...nothing has been mentioned by the OP to suggest bigotry...just non-compliance with the same rules that apply to anyone..
none of which as far as i can see has anything to do with a club,as a profit making venture, being required to comply with regulations on several grounds including ,yes, the dreaded h&s safety grounds.
I was responding to the title of the thread. If you look at what AbFabs is going through then you would see that some people just dislike swingers for being swingers and want to shut down clubs for any reason they can. Not every council is open for cooperation because some are run by bigots because bigots are allowed to vote too.
I was referring to bigots in the council that are trying to shut down AbFabs not CS. If you look at what they say about the club, it's clear they just don't like what it is.
I thought the issue Abfabs had was around a lack of planning permission?
That's an issue about whether the dungeon should be there or not. But some councillors have openly said they want the place shut dungeon or no dungeon.
I think it is obvious to anyone that some people will be opposed to a swingers club. Is it hardly a surprise that when rules are breached, they are jumped on by some councillors?
I'm not saying it's right (far from it) but it;s beyond me why they would give the council the ammunition they need"If you have a job that requires much involvement with councils then you'll understand the deeper meaning of the phrase "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission" | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"there is always the consideration that if you are now claiming that you are now not a business.... but you are charging people and you are now somekind of "not for profit organisation".... but since you are not a business...i think there can be an arguement to say you shouldn't be in the club review section since you aren't by your own admission a club....or a business! "And since it's none of your business... what has it got to be with you? | |||
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"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun. " This is very true | |||
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"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun.
im sorry but i still cant see the 'bigotry'...nothing has been mentioned by the OP to suggest bigotry...just non-compliance with the same rules that apply to anyone..
none of which as far as i can see has anything to do with a club,as a profit making venture, being required to comply with regulations on several grounds including ,yes, the dreaded h&s safety grounds.
I was responding to the title of the thread. If you look at what AbFabs is going through then you would see that some people just dislike swingers for being swingers and want to shut down clubs for any reason they can. Not every council is open for cooperation because some are run by bigots because bigots are allowed to vote too.
I was referring to bigots in the council that are trying to shut down AbFabs not CS. If you look at what they say about the club, it's clear they just don't like what it is.
I thought the issue Abfabs had was around a lack of planning permission?
That's an issue about whether the dungeon should be there or not. But some councillors have openly said they want the place shut dungeon or no dungeon.
I think it is obvious to anyone that some people will be opposed to a swingers club. Is it hardly a surprise that when rules are breached, they are jumped on by some councillors?
I'm not saying it's right (far from it) but it;s beyond me why they would give the council the ammunition they need
If you have a job that requires much involvement with councils then you'll understand the deeper meaning of the phrase "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission" "I think most people understand that phrase. Someone else said this earlier "All of us self-employed folk have a choice between doing everything above board, or taking a chance, risking the consequences and accepting them when it goes tits up." And when we seek forgiveness, we have to accept that it might not be forthcoming | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun.
im sorry but i still cant see the 'bigotry'...nothing has been mentioned by the OP to suggest bigotry...just non-compliance with the same rules that apply to anyone..
none of which as far as i can see has anything to do with a club,as a profit making venture, being required to comply with regulations on several grounds including ,yes, the dreaded h&s safety grounds.
I was responding to the title of the thread. If you look at what AbFabs is going through then you would see that some people just dislike swingers for being swingers and want to shut down clubs for any reason they can. Not every council is open for cooperation because some are run by bigots because bigots are allowed to vote too.
I was referring to bigots in the council that are trying to shut down AbFabs not CS. If you look at what they say about the club, it's clear they just don't like what it is.
I thought the issue Abfabs had was around a lack of planning permission?
That's an issue about whether the dungeon should be there or not. But some councillors have openly said they want the place shut dungeon or no dungeon.
I think it is obvious to anyone that some people will be opposed to a swingers club. Is it hardly a surprise that when rules are breached, they are jumped on by some councillors?
I'm not saying it's right (far from it) but it;s beyond me why they would give the council the ammunition they need
If you have a job that requires much involvement with councils then you'll understand the deeper meaning of the phrase "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission"
I think most people understand that phrase. Someone else said this earlier
All of us self-employed folk have a choice between doing everything above board, or taking a chance, risking the consequences and accepting them when it goes tits up.
And when we seek forgiveness, we have to accept that it might not be forthcoming"If you understand the 'deeper meaning' then you shouldn't be shocked that entrepreneur types might pay lip service to rules. You should also be grateful they do otherwise there wouldn't be a swinging club within 100 miles of most of us. British obsession with rules and dim view of entrepreneurship is a contributing factor to why economic growth needs to be measured with decimal places in this country. | |||
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"You would assume that swinger clubs are completely legal in 21st century Britain and they certainly should be in a modern, “liberated” democracy, yet although nobody can object of such clubs on moral grounds, there are ways which can indirectly affect such activities taking place. In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain there is absolutely no question about it. When people in those countries attend a swinger party in a swinger club they are attending a legal event in a legal establishment. In Britain, the water is actually quite murky simply because there is no such a thing as a “Swinger Club Licence” and although in principle there is no Act of Parliament that directly defines swinging as being illegal, there is absolutely nothing that defines a swinger party being an illegal event, nor anything specifically forbid the setting up of premises for the purpose of holding such events however the reality is much more complicated, purely in the definition and the wording used in which such events are being classified under. For example, Brothels are illegal, but there are Sauna Parlours which are technically the same thing, but with a much less frightening description from its original classification. Individual councils apply different legislations to regulate the use of premises in addition to the normal Planning and Building Regulations which are required for any kind of change in premises whether material and/or of use, we did indeed consult both the Police and the Licencing Authority with regards to the status of the Club and this is probably what went against us… yes for doing things legally in a murky legislation. We were told that we would have been better off saying that we were opening a Club for Gays and it would have been no problems, in fact London is full of Gay Saunas BUT I do not know a Swinger Club owner that has not had problem with the council or currently legally fighting to keep their business open! So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – That’s what I think anyway and YES we are discriminated
You do know what is happening to London nightlife don't you? Countless bars and clubs closing down, new licences being refused, police and licensing authorities seemingly in cahoots in imposing draconian licensing conditions such as photo ID and fingerprinting mandatory for entrance.
This is a huge problem not you being discrimnated against.
And given that background, do you honestly find it surprising that you were jumped on?
And London is most definitely not full of gay saunas, you make it sound like they are everywhere which is far from the truth"The fingerprinting and Id is very much in the case in Watford as well. When I do go to vanilla pubs and clubs I have to show my driving licence and I am 35 in 3 weeks time and look well over 21 | |||
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"In a lot of people's minds, swingers are deviants only slightly higher than pedophiles. So yes it would be nice to have more people stand up and say "I'm a swinger and there's nothing wrong with me". But it'll never be mainstream because most people would rather lie and cheat on their partners than have consensual fun.
im sorry but i still cant see the 'bigotry'...nothing has been mentioned by the OP to suggest bigotry...just non-compliance with the same rules that apply to anyone..
none of which as far as i can see has anything to do with a club,as a profit making venture, being required to comply with regulations on several grounds including ,yes, the dreaded h&s safety grounds.
I was responding to the title of the thread. If you look at what AbFabs is going through then you would see that some people just dislike swingers for being swingers and want to shut down clubs for any reason they can. Not every council is open for cooperation because some are run by bigots because bigots are allowed to vote too.
I was referring to bigots in the council that are trying to shut down AbFabs not CS. If you look at what they say about the club, it's clear they just don't like what it is.
I thought the issue Abfabs had was around a lack of planning permission?
That's an issue about whether the dungeon should be there or not. But some councillors have openly said they want the place shut dungeon or no dungeon.
I think it is obvious to anyone that some people will be opposed to a swingers club. Is it hardly a surprise that when rules are breached, they are jumped on by some councillors?
I'm not saying it's right (far from it) but it;s beyond me why they would give the council the ammunition they need
If you have a job that requires much involvement with councils then you'll understand the deeper meaning of the phrase "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission"
I think most people understand that phrase. Someone else said this earlier
All of us self-employed folk have a choice between doing everything above board, or taking a chance, risking the consequences and accepting them when it goes tits up.
And when we seek forgiveness, we have to accept that it might not be forthcoming
If you understand the 'deeper meaning' then you shouldn't be shocked that entrepreneur types might pay lip service to rules. You should also be grateful they do otherwise there wouldn't be a swinging club within 100 miles of most of us.
British obsession with rules and dim view of entrepreneurship is a contributing factor to why economic growth needs to be measured with decimal places in this country. " | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – " I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion." I read it as quite resentful towards 'that community' .... a number of issues mixed up here. A club attempting to operate with some of the legal constraints that keep those who visit it safe, an assumption that all of us swingers should broadcast the details of our sex lives to everyone (should anyone), the belief that swingers are marginalised to a greater extent than the 'gay community' .... what about where these two communities, the swinging and the gay come together? It does seem that the tone in which you describe two men engaging in public displays of affection is somewhat disdainful ... why? Aren't such things welcome at your events? Curiosity on my part. Always interested in what is acceptable. If anything, your view comes across as more mainstream than the rights some people have fought hard to get .... | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion." This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun." But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please." Interesting debate .... I don't identify as a swinger or as part of the community. It doesn't define my sense of self ... as one can appear to conform to all the norms of society and still be a swinger. I really don't think swingers face any discrimination ... not to the extent of attacks on the street etc, like others who are discriminated can be. Many swingers are too much part of the established mainstream society to let this happen. I don't see anything wrong in not telling everyone your business. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. Interesting debate .... I don't identify as a swinger or as part of the community. It doesn't define my sense of self ... as one can appear to conform to all the norms of society and still be a swinger. I really don't think swingers face any discrimination ... not to the extent of attacks on the street etc, like others who are discriminated can be. Many swingers are too much part of the established mainstream society to let this happen. I don't see anything wrong in not telling everyone your business. " Not attacks on the street no. But career sabotage definately happens. Someone 'outs' you as a swinger, a significant number of colleagues start treating you differently, work becomes intolerable, you either resign of find yourself included in the next round of redundancies. Don't even get me started on the view that social services might take of parents who are swingers... | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please." I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome." He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! | |||
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" Our question to you: Is it still so that there will always be ways for people's lives to be destroyed because of their consensual, adult activities? Are swingers, who are less visible and tend to lead more "acceptable" lives than some other subcultures, next up for discrimination? " I fail to see how the situation may have "destroyed" your "lives"?? Feel free to enlighten me of course.. | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. Interesting debate .... I don't identify as a swinger or as part of the community. It doesn't define my sense of self ... as one can appear to conform to all the norms of society and still be a swinger. I really don't think swingers face any discrimination ... not to the extent of attacks on the street etc, like others who are discriminated can be. Many swingers are too much part of the established mainstream society to let this happen. I don't see anything wrong in not telling everyone your business. Not attacks on the street no. But career sabotage definately happens. Someone 'outs' you as a swinger, a significant number of colleagues start treating you differently, work becomes intolerable, you either resign of find yourself included in the next round of redundancies. Don't even get me started on the view that social services might take of parents who are swingers... " But none of these things are life or death, are they ... more likely to be classified as first world problems? | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion." I love how there's always people in the backround ready to be offended by something | |||
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"I didnt know all this discrimination was happening. All the clubs I visit seem to be fine. Perhaps northern councils are friendlier "There are plenty clubs down south which operate within the realms of what is expected .... we don't see any discrimination here. I don't broadcast my sex life anywhere ... not even here .... so is anyone suggesting we should? | |||
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"The "scene" eats itself... It want more interesting, attractive people to join and it wants to show its a perfectly normal way to lead your life.. But it hides away, prohibits access to those it wants and does very little lobbying... In a way the pretence of "exclusivity" or the selfishness of the players harm themselves." I don't think the way forward is to attract the mainstream 'interesting attractive' people. I think the more interesting people are not necessarily the most stereotypically attractive. I don't think people who are into self promotion or splashing their exploits everywhere are either interesting or attractive .... indeed if the 'interesting and attractive' elitist crew take over, it becomes more mainstream and more elitist in one foul swoop. I think that is why we are losing interest in the scene and looking for what is underground again. Its becoming too normal .... we like a little edge | |||
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"Totally outside my field of experience, but did you apply for a business licence? Currently this sounds less like discrimination and more about you trying to pull a fast one to avoid paying your taxes or fulfilling some other technicality. Mr ddc" Were the premises issued with a fire safety certificate? Or did you not worry about such trivia? | |||
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"The "scene" eats itself... It want more interesting, attractive people to join and it wants to show its a perfectly normal way to lead your life.. But it hides away, prohibits access to those it wants and does very little lobbying... In a way the pretence of "exclusivity" or the selfishness of the players harm themselves. I don't think the way forward is to attract the mainstream 'interesting attractive' people. I think the more interesting people are not necessarily the most stereotypically attractive. I don't think people who are into self promotion or splashing their exploits everywhere are either interesting or attractive .... indeed if the 'interesting and attractive' elitist crew take over, it becomes more mainstream and more elitist in one foul swoop. I think that is why we are losing interest in the scene and looking for what is underground again. Its becoming too normal .... we like a little edge" Intresting = Stirs an inquisitive nature in others. Attractive = Look or personality draw other to them. That is not eltist, it's just what every scene wants. Unless you want drones? Nobody takes over, it's just the evolution of an idea, it not something you should fear... You never know... You may find someone... Interesting? | |||
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"The "scene" eats itself... It want more interesting, attractive people to join and it wants to show its a perfectly normal way to lead your life.. But it hides away, prohibits access to those it wants and does very little lobbying... In a way the pretence of "exclusivity" or the selfishness of the players harm themselves. I don't think the way forward is to attract the mainstream 'interesting attractive' people. I think the more interesting people are not necessarily the most stereotypically attractive. I don't think people who are into self promotion or splashing their exploits everywhere are either interesting or attractive .... indeed if the 'interesting and attractive' elitist crew take over, it becomes more mainstream and more elitist in one foul swoop. I think that is why we are losing interest in the scene and looking for what is underground again. Its becoming too normal .... we like a little edge" TRANSLATION = "Overweight, uninteresting and unattractive people will do, thanks all the same" | |||
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"The "scene" eats itself... It want more interesting, attractive people to join and it wants to show its a perfectly normal way to lead your life.. But it hides away, prohibits access to those it wants and does very little lobbying... In a way the pretence of "exclusivity" or the selfishness of the players harm themselves. I don't think the way forward is to attract the mainstream 'interesting attractive' people. I think the more interesting people are not necessarily the most stereotypically attractive. I don't think people who are into self promotion or splashing their exploits everywhere are either interesting or attractive .... indeed if the 'interesting and attractive' elitist crew take over, it becomes more mainstream and more elitist in one foul swoop. I think that is why we are losing interest in the scene and looking for what is underground again. Its becoming too normal .... we like a little edge TRANSLATION = "Overweight, uninteresting and unattractive people will do, thanks all the same"" Yep... I sort of read that as "anything will do" | |||
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"The "scene" eats itself... It want more interesting, attractive people to join and it wants to show its a perfectly normal way to lead your life.. But it hides away, prohibits access to those it wants and does very little lobbying... In a way the pretence of "exclusivity" or the selfishness of the players harm themselves. I don't think the way forward is to attract the mainstream 'interesting attractive' people. I think the more interesting people are not necessarily the most stereotypically attractive. I don't think people who are into self promotion or splashing their exploits everywhere are either interesting or attractive .... indeed if the 'interesting and attractive' elitist crew take over, it becomes more mainstream and more elitist in one foul swoop. I think that is why we are losing interest in the scene and looking for what is underground again. Its becoming too normal .... we like a little edge TRANSLATION = "Overweight, uninteresting and unattractive people will do, thanks all the same" Yep... I sort of read that as "anything will do"" Indeed - it appears that "anything" will indeed "do" | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! " Tragically he killed himself. He was not actively killed by the state or another person. Although you could argue easily that the state played a pivotal and frankly unacceptable role in driving him to kill himself. That makes no difference whatsoever to the argument that you cannot simply define someone by their sexuality, We have tried before and see where it got us. Gay men and women are the same as straight men and women. They just love people in the same way as straight men and women, the only difference is the gender of who they love. I wear green trousers sometimes, most people do not, however I really like my green trousers. Most people do not. I get a lot of abuse and at work I am given a hard time for it. Does that mean that having green trousers is the sole defining factor of my personality? | |||
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"Totally outside my field of experience, but did you apply for a business licence? Currently this sounds less like discrimination and more about you trying to pull a fast one to avoid paying your taxes or fulfilling some other technicality. Mr ddc Were the premises issued with a fire safety certificate? Or did you not worry about such trivia? "We took all the necessary steps to comply with the Law as I am an Architect myself and also used the appropriate consultants including the control of the noise for which we never do Disco Music anyway apart from a 15/20 minutes Burlesque Show which apparently that was acceptable as it is not considered a full on Strip Tease and providing it was done before 11:00pm We also provide a welcoming drink included with the entrance fee, so indirectly we are selling alcohol and therefore the TEN was necessary. PLEASE NOTE: we have never been refused a TEN in 7 years so we have a decent track record... at times in some council the Entertainment Police wants to meet me for a chat to reassure themselves that we know what we are doing but we have never been refused a TEN even in prime locations such as The City of London. TEN is called Temporary Entertainment Notice because it requires to be asked each time individually and therefore if abused or misused than they have the power to control you BUT we did not get to that stage because an old Lady (who should have gone in pension a long time ago and given her place to some younger jobless person and who was evident she had never had a good f**k in her life!) who happened to be at the Head of the Licensing did not agree with what we were doing!!! The Police itself and my Licensing Adviser (ex police officer) suggested that I should say that it was Gay Club and probably I would have had no trouble because Gays (quite rightly so and well deserved!) stand out and fight for their own rights while Swingers because they are peaceful creatures get discriminated in my opinion! A couple of parties went ahead anyway, BUT they were FoC only my friends were invited and on a BYOB basis! Apparently the council received a complain which I shall write here below: "I am writing to inform you that this office has received a complaint regarding events held at the above address..... The complaint alleges that a number of d*unken patrons left the ..... in the early hours of Saturday and Sunday morning following what s/he has described as "commercial sex parties" that were "inclusive of unlimited alcohol". The patrons are then alleged to have behaved in an anti-social manner causing "noise and disturbance" with one seen to be "urinating in the street". Now from the writing itself I am sure you can easily appreciate that if you believe that... you believe anything! I challenged that because a) we had CCTV evidence that proved otherwise b) the neighbours willingly together signed a partition (as I went to apologise to them for the nuisance caused) they absolutely said they would have been the first to knock on my door and last but not least those patrons who left were Police Officers hardly the people they would want to be known for attending such parties!!! My point to you once again is this: Is it not about time WE SWINGERS became proud to admit that we like sex and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it? | |||
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"The "scene" eats itself... It want more interesting, attractive people to join and it wants to show its a perfectly normal way to lead your life.. But it hides away, prohibits access to those it wants and does very little lobbying... In a way the pretence of "exclusivity" or the selfishness of the players harm themselves. I don't think the way forward is to attract the mainstream 'interesting attractive' people. I think the more interesting people are not necessarily the most stereotypically attractive. I don't think people who are into self promotion or splashing their exploits everywhere are either interesting or attractive .... indeed if the 'interesting and attractive' elitist crew take over, it becomes more mainstream and more elitist in one foul swoop. I think that is why we are losing interest in the scene and looking for what is underground again. Its becoming too normal .... we like a little edge Intresting = Stirs an inquisitive nature in others. Attractive = Look or personality draw other to them. That is not eltist, it's just what every scene wants. Unless you want drones? Nobody takes over, it's just the evolution of an idea, it not something you should fear... You never know... You may find someone... Interesting?" I think the swinging scene does cater already for all groups of people. If people want physically attractive than there are people out there. If people value interesting and personality more, there are people out there. In fact many are a mix of both so they are definitely out there. The fet scene caters for the more edgy, that is out there and when you combine the 2 together it can produce amazing results. Swinging doesn't have to become mainstream and promote itself to the masses, if people are interested they will find it, plenty of websites, like this one, plenty of bonafide clubs people can search for and visit. | |||
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"The "scene" eats itself... It want more interesting, attractive people to join and it wants to show its a perfectly normal way to lead your life.. But it hides away, prohibits access to those it wants and does very little lobbying... In a way the pretence of "exclusivity" or the selfishness of the players harm themselves. I don't think the way forward is to attract the mainstream 'interesting attractive' people. I think the more interesting people are not necessarily the most stereotypically attractive. I don't think people who are into self promotion or splashing their exploits everywhere are either interesting or attractive .... indeed if the 'interesting and attractive' elitist crew take over, it becomes more mainstream and more elitist in one foul swoop. I think that is why we are losing interest in the scene and looking for what is underground again. Its becoming too normal .... we like a little edge TRANSLATION = "Overweight, uninteresting and unattractive people will do, thanks all the same" Yep... I sort of read that as "anything will do"" NOT on the: - Top Public Photos: Most Fab'd - it won'd do... is it not the choice of the users to Fab them? This should be considered inspirational not discriminational!!! | |||
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"The "scene" eats itself... It want more interesting, attractive people to join and it wants to show its a perfectly normal way to lead your life.. But it hides away, prohibits access to those it wants and does very little lobbying... In a way the pretence of "exclusivity" or the selfishness of the players harm themselves. I don't think the way forward is to attract the mainstream 'interesting attractive' people. I think the more interesting people are not necessarily the most stereotypically attractive. I don't think people who are into self promotion or splashing their exploits everywhere are either interesting or attractive .... indeed if the 'interesting and attractive' elitist crew take over, it becomes more mainstream and more elitist in one foul swoop. I think that is why we are losing interest in the scene and looking for what is underground again. Its becoming too normal .... we like a little edge TRANSLATION = "Overweight, uninteresting and unattractive people will do, thanks all the same" Yep... I sort of read that as "anything will do"" I think you'll find it's anything but, going by our verifications anyway .... not into people who put themselves on a pedestal, just like I don't get off on reading celebrity gossip. | |||
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"Totally outside my field of experience, but did you apply for a business licence? Currently this sounds less like discrimination and more about you trying to pull a fast one to avoid paying your taxes or fulfilling some other technicality. Mr ddc Were the premises issued with a fire safety certificate? Or did you not worry about such trivia?
We took all the necessary steps to comply with the Law as I am an Architect myself and also used the appropriate consultants including the control of the noise for which we never do Disco Music anyway apart from a 15/20 minutes Burlesque Show which apparently that was acceptable as it is not considered a full on Strip Tease and providing it was done before 11:00pm
We also provide a welcoming drink included with the entrance fee, so indirectly we are selling alcohol and therefore the TEN was necessary. PLEASE NOTE: we have never been refused a TEN in 7 years so we have a decent track record... at times in some council the Entertainment Police wants to meet me for a chat to reassure themselves that we know what we are doing but we have never been refused a TEN even in prime locations such as The City of London.
TEN is called Temporary Entertainment Notice because it requires to be asked each time individually and therefore if abused or misused than they have the power to control you BUT we did not get to that stage because an old Lady (who should have gone in pension a long time ago and given her place to some younger jobless person and who was evident she had never had a good f**k in her life!) who happened to be at the Head of the Licensing did not agree with what we were doing!!!
The Police itself and my Licensing Adviser (ex police officer) suggested that I should say that it was Gay Club and probably I would have had no trouble because Gays (quite rightly so and well deserved!) stand out and fight for their own rights while Swingers because they are peaceful creatures get discriminated in my opinion!
A couple of parties went ahead anyway, BUT they were FoC only my friends were invited and on a BYOB basis! Apparently the council received a complain which I shall write here below:
"I am writing to inform you that this office has received a complaint regarding events held at the above address.....
The complaint alleges that a number of d*unken patrons left the ..... in the early hours of Saturday and Sunday morning following what s/he has described as "commercial sex parties" that were "inclusive of unlimited alcohol". The patrons are then alleged to have behaved in an anti-social manner causing "noise and disturbance" with one seen to be "urinating in the street".
Now from the writing itself I am sure you can easily appreciate that if you believe that... you believe anything!
I challenged that because a) we had CCTV evidence that proved otherwise b) the neighbours willingly together signed a partition (as I went to apologise to them for the nuisance caused) they absolutely said they would have been the first to knock on my door and last but not least those patrons who left were Police Officers hardly the people they would want to be known for attending such parties!!!
My point to you once again is this: Is it not about time WE SWINGERS became proud to admit that we like sex and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it?
"We swingers, and I am not sure I lump us together as a group, to be honest, aren't the only people who enjoy sex though, are we? Surely people can enjoy sex without being swingers, can't they? | |||
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"The "scene" eats itself... It want more interesting, attractive people to join and it wants to show its a perfectly normal way to lead your life.. But it hides away, prohibits access to those it wants and does very little lobbying... In a way the pretence of "exclusivity" or the selfishness of the players harm themselves. I don't think the way forward is to attract the mainstream 'interesting attractive' people. I think the more interesting people are not necessarily the most stereotypically attractive. I don't think people who are into self promotion or splashing their exploits everywhere are either interesting or attractive .... indeed if the 'interesting and attractive' elitist crew take over, it becomes more mainstream and more elitist in one foul swoop. I think that is why we are losing interest in the scene and looking for what is underground again. Its becoming too normal .... we like a little edge TRANSLATION = "Overweight, uninteresting and unattractive people will do, thanks all the same" Yep... I sort of read that as "anything will do" NOT on the: - Top Public Photos: Most Fab'd - it won'd do... is it not the choice of the users to Fab them? This should be considered inspirational not discriminational!!! " Inspirational is a bit strong... As is discriminational... And most fabbed pics, isn't the finest gauges of excellence. But I take your point (oh the innuendo!). | |||
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"Totally outside my field of experience, but did you apply for a business licence? Currently this sounds less like discrimination and more about you trying to pull a fast one to avoid paying your taxes or fulfilling some other technicality. Mr ddc Were the premises issued with a fire safety certificate? Or did you not worry about such trivia?
We took all the necessary steps to comply with the Law as I am an Architect myself and also used the appropriate consultants including the control of the noise for which we never do Disco Music anyway apart from a 15/20 minutes Burlesque Show which apparently that was acceptable as it is not considered a full on Strip Tease and providing it was done before 11:00pm
We also provide a welcoming drink included with the entrance fee, so indirectly we are selling alcohol and therefore the TEN was necessary. PLEASE NOTE: we have never been refused a TEN in 7 years so we have a decent track record... at times in some council the Entertainment Police wants to meet me for a chat to reassure themselves that we know what we are doing but we have never been refused a TEN even in prime locations such as The City of London.
TEN is called Temporary Entertainment Notice because it requires to be asked each time individually and therefore if abused or misused than they have the power to control you BUT we did not get to that stage because an old Lady (who should have gone in pension a long time ago and given her place to some younger jobless person and who was evident she had never had a good f**k in her life!) who happened to be at the Head of the Licensing did not agree with what we were doing!!!
The Police itself and my Licensing Adviser (ex police officer) suggested that I should say that it was Gay Club and probably I would have had no trouble because Gays (quite rightly so and well deserved!) stand out and fight for their own rights while Swingers because they are peaceful creatures get discriminated in my opinion!
A couple of parties went ahead anyway, BUT they were FoC only my friends were invited and on a BYOB basis! Apparently the council received a complain which I shall write here below:
"I am writing to inform you that this office has received a complaint regarding events held at the above address.....
The complaint alleges that a number of d*unken patrons left the ..... in the early hours of Saturday and Sunday morning following what s/he has described as "commercial sex parties" that were "inclusive of unlimited alcohol". The patrons are then alleged to have behaved in an anti-social manner causing "noise and disturbance" with one seen to be "urinating in the street".
Now from the writing itself I am sure you can easily appreciate that if you believe that... you believe anything!
I challenged that because a) we had CCTV evidence that proved otherwise b) the neighbours willingly together signed a partition (as I went to apologise to them for the nuisance caused) they absolutely said they would have been the first to knock on my door and last but not least those patrons who left were Police Officers hardly the people they would want to be known for attending such parties!!!
My point to you once again is this: Is it not about time WE SWINGERS became proud to admit that we like sex and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it?
We swingers, and I am not sure I lump us together as a group, to be honest, aren't the only people who enjoy sex though, are we? Surely people can enjoy sex without being swingers, can't they? "Exactly an even better reason to be considered such a normality so why do we have to keep it hidden with fear to be used against us and/or even loosing our own job if we all enjoy sex... what a big deal??? | |||
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(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"The "scene" eats itself... It want more interesting, attractive people to join and it wants to show its a perfectly normal way to lead your life.. But it hides away, prohibits access to those it wants and does very little lobbying... In a way the pretence of "exclusivity" or the selfishness of the players harm themselves. I don't think the way forward is to attract the mainstream 'interesting attractive' people. I think the more interesting people are not necessarily the most stereotypically attractive. I don't think people who are into self promotion or splashing their exploits everywhere are either interesting or attractive .... indeed if the 'interesting and attractive' elitist crew take over, it becomes more mainstream and more elitist in one foul swoop. I think that is why we are losing interest in the scene and looking for what is underground again. Its becoming too normal .... we like a little edge TRANSLATION = "Overweight, uninteresting and unattractive people will do, thanks all the same" Yep... I sort of read that as "anything will do" I think you'll find it's anything but, going by our verifications anyway .... not into people who put themselves on a pedestal, just like I don't get off on reading celebrity gossip. " I'm not attacking you and you don't have to present you evidence of your taste to me... I'm just saying it how I read it. And it's not about you... Everyone is not you, I'm talking generally... | |||
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"Totally outside my field of experience, but did you apply for a business licence? Currently this sounds less like discrimination and more about you trying to pull a fast one to avoid paying your taxes or fulfilling some other technicality. Mr ddc Were the premises issued with a fire safety certificate? Or did you not worry about such trivia?
We took all the necessary steps to comply with the Law as I am an Architect myself and also used the appropriate consultants including the control of the noise for which we never do Disco Music anyway apart from a 15/20 minutes Burlesque Show which apparently that was acceptable as it is not considered a full on Strip Tease and providing it was done before 11:00pm
We also provide a welcoming drink included with the entrance fee, so indirectly we are selling alcohol and therefore the TEN was necessary. PLEASE NOTE: we have never been refused a TEN in 7 years so we have a decent track record... at times in some council the Entertainment Police wants to meet me for a chat to reassure themselves that we know what we are doing but we have never been refused a TEN even in prime locations such as The City of London.
TEN is called Temporary Entertainment Notice because it requires to be asked each time individually and therefore if abused or misused than they have the power to control you BUT we did not get to that stage because an old Lady (who should have gone in pension a long time ago and given her place to some younger jobless person and who was evident she had never had a good f**k in her life!) who happened to be at the Head of the Licensing did not agree with what we were doing!!!
The Police itself and my Licensing Adviser (ex police officer) suggested that I should say that it was Gay Club and probably I would have had no trouble because Gays (quite rightly so and well deserved!) stand out and fight for their own rights while Swingers because they are peaceful creatures get discriminated in my opinion!
A couple of parties went ahead anyway, BUT they were FoC only my friends were invited and on a BYOB basis! Apparently the council received a complain which I shall write here below:
"I am writing to inform you that this office has received a complaint regarding events held at the above address.....
The complaint alleges that a number of d*unken patrons left the ..... in the early hours of Saturday and Sunday morning following what s/he has described as "commercial sex parties" that were "inclusive of unlimited alcohol". The patrons are then alleged to have behaved in an anti-social manner causing "noise and disturbance" with one seen to be "urinating in the street".
Now from the writing itself I am sure you can easily appreciate that if you believe that... you believe anything!
I challenged that because a) we had CCTV evidence that proved otherwise b) the neighbours willingly together signed a partition (as I went to apologise to them for the nuisance caused) they absolutely said they would have been the first to knock on my door and last but not least those patrons who left were Police Officers hardly the people they would want to be known for attending such parties!!!
My point to you once again is this: Is it not about time WE SWINGERS became proud to admit that we like sex and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it?
We swingers, and I am not sure I lump us together as a group, to be honest, aren't the only people who enjoy sex though, are we? Surely people can enjoy sex without being swingers, can't they?
Exactly an even better reason to be considered such a normality so why do we have to keep it hidden with fear to be used against us and/or even loosing our own job if we all enjoy sex... what a big deal??? "If its not a big deal, why make it such a big deal then ... I don't go around shouting about my sexual preferences or exploits from the rooftops, swinger or not. Nor do I want to be around people who do .... I am just not interested in what other people get up to. | |||
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"I don't get that translation in the slightest .... but lumping overweight, uninteresting and unattractive in one sentence surely says a lot. Who is to define interesting or attractive? The norms of this western society? That is exactly the point here ....surely" It's easy to define & it has been... Look around you... Society has already been constructed by louder voices and our definition of "interesting" & "attractive" was set long before you were born... Try to fight it, but you can't opt out of the game... | |||
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"Totally outside my field of experience, but did you apply for a business licence? Currently this sounds less like discrimination and more about you trying to pull a fast one to avoid paying your taxes or fulfilling some other technicality. Mr ddc Were the premises issued with a fire safety certificate? Or did you not worry about such trivia?
We took all the necessary steps to comply with the Law as I am an Architect myself and also used the appropriate consultants including the control of the noise for which we never do Disco Music anyway apart from a 15/20 minutes Burlesque Show which apparently that was acceptable as it is not considered a full on Strip Tease and providing it was done before 11:00pm
We also provide a welcoming drink included with the entrance fee, so indirectly we are selling alcohol and therefore the TEN was necessary. PLEASE NOTE: we have never been refused a TEN in 7 years so we have a decent track record... at times in some council the Entertainment Police wants to meet me for a chat to reassure themselves that we know what we are doing but we have never been refused a TEN even in prime locations such as The City of London.
TEN is called Temporary Entertainment Notice because it requires to be asked each time individually and therefore if abused or misused than they have the power to control you BUT we did not get to that stage because an old Lady (who should have gone in pension a long time ago and given her place to some younger jobless person and who was evident she had never had a good f**k in her life!) who happened to be at the Head of the Licensing did not agree with what we were doing!!!
The Police itself and my Licensing Adviser (ex police officer) suggested that I should say that it was Gay Club and probably I would have had no trouble because Gays (quite rightly so and well deserved!) stand out and fight for their own rights while Swingers because they are peaceful creatures get discriminated in my opinion!
A couple of parties went ahead anyway, BUT they were FoC only my friends were invited and on a BYOB basis! Apparently the council received a complain which I shall write here below:
"I am writing to inform you that this office has received a complaint regarding events held at the above address.....
The complaint alleges that a number of d*unken patrons left the ..... in the early hours of Saturday and Sunday morning following what s/he has described as "commercial sex parties" that were "inclusive of unlimited alcohol". The patrons are then alleged to have behaved in an anti-social manner causing "noise and disturbance" with one seen to be "urinating in the street".
Now from the writing itself I am sure you can easily appreciate that if you believe that... you believe anything!
I challenged that because a) we had CCTV evidence that proved otherwise b) the neighbours willingly together signed a partition (as I went to apologise to them for the nuisance caused) they absolutely said they would have been the first to knock on my door and last but not least those patrons who left were Police Officers hardly the people they would want to be known for attending such parties!!!
My point to you once again is this: Is it not about time WE SWINGERS became proud to admit that we like sex and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it?
We swingers, and I am not sure I lump us together as a group, to be honest, aren't the only people who enjoy sex though, are we? Surely people can enjoy sex without being swingers, can't they?
Exactly an even better reason to be considered such a normality so why do we have to keep it hidden with fear to be used against us and/or even loosing our own job if we all enjoy sex... what a big deal???
If its not a big deal, why make it such a big deal then ... I don't go around shouting about my sexual preferences or exploits from the rooftops, swinger or not. Nor do I want to be around people who do .... I am just not interested in what other people get up to."Nor do I, but I kind of agree with him... | |||
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"I don't get that translation in the slightest .... but lumping overweight, uninteresting and unattractive in one sentence surely says a lot. Who is to define interesting or attractive? The norms of this western society? That is exactly the point here ....surely It's easy to define & it has been... Look around you... Society has already been constructed by louder voices and our definition of "interesting" & "attractive" was set long before you were born... Try to fight it, but you can't opt out of the game..." Actually lots of different definitions and I really don't think it is that clear cut ... those that shout the loudest aren't always the ones we listen to, are they? Attractive and interesting isn't the same the world over .... and times change, certainly from before I was born. | |||
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"I don't get that translation in the slightest .... but lumping overweight, uninteresting and unattractive in one sentence surely says a lot. Who is to define interesting or attractive? The norms of this western society? That is exactly the point here ....surely It's easy to define & it has been... Look around you... Society has already been constructed by louder voices and our definition of "interesting" & "attractive" was set long before you were born... Try to fight it, but you can't opt out of the game... Actually lots of different definitions and I really don't think it is that clear cut ... those that shout the loudest aren't always the ones we listen to, are they? Attractive and interesting isn't the same the world over .... and times change, certainly from before I was born. " Actually they are the ones we listen to, they have shaped our world, we have built monuments to and statues of them... Look upon my works ye mighty... And all that! | |||
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"I don't get that translation in the slightest .... but lumping overweight, uninteresting and unattractive in one sentence surely says a lot. Who is to define interesting or attractive? The norms of this western society? That is exactly the point here ....surely It's easy to define & it has been... Look around you... Society has already been constructed by louder voices and our definition of "interesting" & "attractive" was set long before you were born... Try to fight it, but you can't opt out of the game... Actually lots of different definitions and I really don't think it is that clear cut ... those that shout the loudest aren't always the ones we listen to, are they? Attractive and interesting isn't the same the world over .... and times change, certainly from before I was born. " And no, not the same.... But remarkably similar... We all want to be stimulated... Do you invite the office bore on your night out? Fill a room with them and the night dies... Educate me or amuse me... Just don't bore me! | |||
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"I don't get that translation in the slightest .... but lumping overweight, uninteresting and unattractive in one sentence surely says a lot. Who is to define interesting or attractive? The norms of this western society? That is exactly the point here ....surely It's easy to define & it has been... Look around you... Society has already been constructed by louder voices and our definition of "interesting" & "attractive" was set long before you were born... Try to fight it, but you can't opt out of the game... Actually lots of different definitions and I really don't think it is that clear cut ... those that shout the loudest aren't always the ones we listen to, are they? Attractive and interesting isn't the same the world over .... and times change, certainly from before I was born. Oh I get that's why your pictures don't get fabbed as much... you keep them hidden! You should be proud the way you look (unless you have a problem yourself than do something about it) this is a swinger site NOT a medical encyclopaedia where you show anatomy part of your body!!!" I dont understand your line of thinking .... you are moaning about me hiding my pictures (I am not here to get them fabbed, I dont get my validation that way) but then you say people shouldn't be showing 'anatomy part of your body', whatever that is supposed to mean. Implication that I don't have pictures on show is because I am not proud of my body ... look at it like this, I am not an exhibitionist nor aiming to get noticed by my pictures ... my body is my body and not up for debate by you or anyone else what I do with it or who I show it to. Curious about it? That's the idea, its not on show for all and sundry ... you can be proud without showing (off) everything .. in my world anyway. | |||
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"I don't get that translation in the slightest .... but lumping overweight, uninteresting and unattractive in one sentence surely says a lot. Who is to define interesting or attractive? The norms of this western society? That is exactly the point here ....surely It's easy to define & it has been... Look around you... Society has already been constructed by louder voices and our definition of "interesting" & "attractive" was set long before you were born... Try to fight it, but you can't opt out of the game... Actually lots of different definitions and I really don't think it is that clear cut ... those that shout the loudest aren't always the ones we listen to, are they? Attractive and interesting isn't the same the world over .... and times change, certainly from before I was born. And no, not the same.... But remarkably similar... We all want to be stimulated... Do you invite the office bore on your night out? Fill a room with them and the night dies... Educate me or amuse me... Just don't bore me!" I guess that is my point. People who seek the stereotypically attractive bore me ... they don't look beyond appearance. How can an attractive appearance amuse or educate someone on its own? | |||
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"I don't get that translation in the slightest .... but lumping overweight, uninteresting and unattractive in one sentence surely says a lot. Who is to define interesting or attractive? The norms of this western society? That is exactly the point here ....surely It's easy to define & it has been... Look around you... Society has already been constructed by louder voices and our definition of "interesting" & "attractive" was set long before you were born... Try to fight it, but you can't opt out of the game... Actually lots of different definitions and I really don't think it is that clear cut ... those that shout the loudest aren't always the ones we listen to, are they? Attractive and interesting isn't the same the world over .... and times change, certainly from before I was born. Oh I get that's why your pictures don't get fabbed as much... you keep them hidden! You should be proud the way you look (unless you have a problem yourself than do something about it) this is a swinger site NOT a medical encyclopaedia where you show anatomy part of your body!!! I dont understand your line of thinking .... you are moaning about me hiding my pictures (I am not here to get them fabbed, I dont get my validation that way) but then you say people shouldn't be showing 'anatomy part of your body', whatever that is supposed to mean. Implication that I don't have pictures on show is because I am not proud of my body ... look at it like this, I am not an exhibitionist nor aiming to get noticed by my pictures ... my body is my body and not up for debate by you or anyone else what I do with it or who I show it to. Curious about it? That's the idea, its not on show for all and sundry ... you can be proud without showing (off) everything .. in my world anyway. " You are absolutely right! But it seems to me only those who are not so confident have to bring this issue about when the topic is based on other issues! Why not start your own Topic rather that diversifying mine, I can talk about your problems some other time thank you! P.S. It goes without saying that 'confident' people are quite happy to show what they look like and are more likely to get their photos fabbed... it's a fact! | |||
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"If you run parties and take money, you should declare it. If there are repercussions of any sort, you don't get the support of the licensing or police if you are not legit. Clubs can get loads of hassle but those who are above board, rideal the problems out and get great support from the authorities. We have a fantastic working relationship with the council, licensing, police and public health but we are squeaky clean, declare everything and 100% legit. So I have never experienced discrimination as they can see we are business people and providing a safe and above board service. It's the only way a business and more importantly it's members can operate as then the correct insurance is also obtained. I have a personal gripe with people who run parties all the time and don't declare them. Odd ones, I don't have a problem, but when someone is running regular events and turning a profit, it should be declared as a business. It may sound like sour grapes and to some extent it is. Clubs have massive overheads and those who are legit, have big firey hoops to jump through. Clubs have been shutting down across the country due to falling numbers. If people supported their clubs more and not the private parties who charge an entrance or take a 'donation' then businesses wouldn't be folding. Thankfully we are ok, but everytime I hear a club is struggling, it makes me sad and angry. "
Good clubs never struggle | |||
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"I don't get that translation in the slightest .... but lumping overweight, uninteresting and unattractive in one sentence surely says a lot. Who is to define interesting or attractive? The norms of this western society? That is exactly the point here ....surely It's easy to define & it has been... Look around you... Society has already been constructed by louder voices and our definition of "interesting" & "attractive" was set long before you were born... Try to fight it, but you can't opt out of the game... Actually lots of different definitions and I really don't think it is that clear cut ... those that shout the loudest aren't always the ones we listen to, are they? Attractive and interesting isn't the same the world over .... and times change, certainly from before I was born. Oh I get that's why your pictures don't get fabbed as much... you keep them hidden! You should be proud the way you look (unless you have a problem yourself than do something about it) this is a swinger site NOT a medical encyclopaedia where you show anatomy part of your body!!! I dont understand your line of thinking .... you are moaning about me hiding my pictures (I am not here to get them fabbed, I dont get my validation that way) but then you say people shouldn't be showing 'anatomy part of your body', whatever that is supposed to mean. Implication that I don't have pictures on show is because I am not proud of my body ... look at it like this, I am not an exhibitionist nor aiming to get noticed by my pictures ... my body is my body and not up for debate by you or anyone else what I do with it or who I show it to. Curious about it? That's the idea, its not on show for all and sundry ... you can be proud without showing (off) everything .. in my world anyway. You are absolutely right! But it seems to me only those who are not so confident have to bring this issue about when the topic is based on other issues! Why not start your own Topic rather that diversifying mine, I can talk about your problems some other time thank you! P.S. It goes without saying that 'confident' people are quite happy to show what they look like and are more likely to get their photos fabbed... it's a fact!" I don't agree that confident people who are happy with what they look like are the ones who show themselves. I think it could be quite the opposite. Plenty post their pictures here in order to get the validation they feel they need ... if they truly felt good enough, they wouldn't need this external validation. The thread is about discrimination, I think its a valid discussion. You may have started the thread, but don't get to dictate how people respond to it. Once launched, it goes its own way. Posters choose to respond to others comments or not ..... if a comment added takes one up a cul-de-sac so be it, if it touches a nerve, there is quite another response. I don't need to start another thread and I believe I am well within my 'rights' to address what I deem is a personal slight on me, in a vein attempt to make me feel bad about myself because I don't put it all on show .... | |||
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"so its not actually a discrimination issue... its a gripe because your club isn't a club... but different venues you use for private parties...." The big man just nailed it. | |||
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"I don't get that translation in the slightest .... but lumping overweight, uninteresting and unattractive in one sentence surely says a lot. Who is to define interesting or attractive? The norms of this western society? That is exactly the point here ....surely It's easy to define & it has been... Look around you... Society has already been constructed by louder voices and our definition of "interesting" & "attractive" was set long before you were born... Try to fight it, but you can't opt out of the game... Actually lots of different definitions and I really don't think it is that clear cut ... those that shout the loudest aren't always the ones we listen to, are they? Attractive and interesting isn't the same the world over .... and times change, certainly from before I was born. And no, not the same.... But remarkably similar... We all want to be stimulated... Do you invite the office bore on your night out? Fill a room with them and the night dies... Educate me or amuse me... Just don't bore me! I guess that is my point. People who seek the stereotypically attractive bore me ... they don't look beyond appearance. How can an attractive appearance amuse or educate someone on its own?" Stereotypically attractive (attractgenus;) An individual with extensive experience, charisma and charm. Who can beguile a room full of people and proudly tell tales of adventure. They have lost, they have won, but the story in getting to the point where they stand before you, is what intrigues you... They have a personally full of light and shade, textured, not easily described, but their emotions are full, if hidden... And the connection they make with you enhances what is already physically attractive and pleasing to your eyes... | |||
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"A sex cinema had a fire some years ago in London, where many people died. I can imagine that from that point onwards there was a change in direction from the licensing and enforcement people, to ensure that no such tragedy ever happened again. I really have no clue about licensing of the op's business and premises but perceive that if operating in competition with other businesses then it's probably wise to compete on equal terms." Yes I agree and nobody is debating that, in fact if there are some clubs that are operating with very poor standards is because they dare not ask for the council permission to refurbish them for fear to be closed down! If only it was possible to go to the Planning Department and openly say: - I would like to open a Swinger Club please - - Yes with pleasure do take leaflet XXX you need this Licence, this Change of Use and you have to comply with these Health and Safety BUT there isn't!!! NOT as it is In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain you see? How can anyone do something according the law if this is not recognised? Perhaps UK wants to stay out of Europe, maybe British prefer to remain at the Victorian times ignoring the fact that is the 21st Century but I am sure we all agree in here that most people like sex?  | |||
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"A sex cinema had a fire some years ago in London, where many people died. I can imagine that from that point onwards there was a change in direction from the licensing and enforcement people, to ensure that no such tragedy ever happened again. I really have no clue about licensing of the op's business and premises but perceive that if operating in competition with other businesses then it's probably wise to compete on equal terms. Yes I agree and nobody is debating that, in fact if there are some clubs that are operating with very poor standards is because they dare not ask for the council permission to refurbish them for fear to be closed down! If only it was possible to go to the Planning Department and openly say: - I would like to open a Swinger Club please - - Yes with pleasure do take leaflet XXX you need this Licence, this Change of Use and you have to comply with these Health and Safety BUT there isn't!!! NOT as it is In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain you see? How can anyone do something according the law if this is not recognised? Perhaps UK wants to stay out of Europe, maybe British prefer to remain at the Victorian times ignoring the fact that is the 21st Century but I am sure we all agree in here that most people like sex? "There are a great many swingers clubs which operate fine which suggest you are wrong. | |||
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"A sex cinema had a fire some years ago in London, where many people died. I can imagine that from that point onwards there was a change in direction from the licensing and enforcement people, to ensure that no such tragedy ever happened again. I really have no clue about licensing of the op's business and premises but perceive that if operating in competition with other businesses then it's probably wise to compete on equal terms. Yes I agree and nobody is debating that, in fact if there are some clubs that are operating with very poor standards is because they dare not ask for the council permission to refurbish them for fear to be closed down! If only it was possible to go to the Planning Department and openly say: - I would like to open a Swinger Club please - - Yes with pleasure do take leaflet XXX you need this Licence, this Change of Use and you have to comply with these Health and Safety BUT there isn't!!! NOT as it is In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain you see? How can anyone do something according the law if this is not recognised? Perhaps UK wants to stay out of Europe, maybe British prefer to remain at the Victorian times ignoring the fact that is the 21st Century but I am sure we all agree in here that most people like sex?
There are a great many swingers clubs which operate fine which suggest you are wrong."Fine so prove me that there is a Swingers Licence that you can apply for? This is a murky area and it's all in control of the Discretion of each independent Council. Naturally they cannot object on Morality but they find alternative issues to stop you from doing it. It may be easier in the North but it is not so in London I can assure you. Once again had I even 'faked' to open an Establishment for Gays I would have got away BUT PLEASE understand that I am completely sympathetic with the Gay Scene and have nothing against them at all... I only wish Swingers learnt something from the Gays to be Proud of what they are and stick more together as I strongly believe this is the reason why we are being bullied and not allowed to open Clubs or own own discreet meeting places as any other Sexual Minority is allowed to do | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"A sex cinema had a fire some years ago in London, where many people died. I can imagine that from that point onwards there was a change in direction from the licensing and enforcement people, to ensure that no such tragedy ever happened again. I really have no clue about licensing of the op's business and premises but perceive that if operating in competition with other businesses then it's probably wise to compete on equal terms. Yes I agree and nobody is debating that, in fact if there are some clubs that are operating with very poor standards is because they dare not ask for the council permission to refurbish them for fear to be closed down! If only it was possible to go to the Planning Department and openly say: - I would like to open a Swinger Club please - - Yes with pleasure do take leaflet XXX you need this Licence, this Change of Use and you have to comply with these Health and Safety BUT there isn't!!! NOT as it is In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain you see? How can anyone do something according the law if this is not recognised? Perhaps UK wants to stay out of Europe, maybe British prefer to remain at the Victorian times ignoring the fact that is the 21st Century but I am sure we all agree in here that most people like sex?
There are a great many swingers clubs which operate fine which suggest you are wrong.
Fine so prove me that there is a Swingers Licence that you can apply for?
This is a murky area and it's all in control of the Discretion of each independent Council. Naturally they cannot object on Morality but they find alternative issues to stop you from doing it. It may be easier in the North but it is not so in London I can assure you.
Once again had I even 'faked' to open an Establishment for Gays I would have got away BUT PLEASE understand that I am completely sympathetic with the Gay Scene and have nothing against them at all... I only wish Swingers learnt something from the Gays to be Proud of what they are and stick more together as I strongly believe this is the reason why we are being bullied and not allowed to open Clubs or own own discreet meeting places as any other Sexual Minority is allowed to do "That is not what I said. I said that there is clearly a legal and allowed way to operate a swingers club. This is due to the large number of clubs who operate legally and with the support of their communities. It is not only swingers clubs who face closure. Nightclubs, casinos etc. All face similar problems. If you have one neighbour who does not like the activities or has been affected by anti social patrons then you will have a problem. You say that you can get your local residents to support you. Do you have 100 of these residents? Do you have proof that every customer ever leaving your club has acted in a wholly responsible and social manner? If not, you cannot say that any complaints are without foundation. Again, many many clubs operate openly and legally and without trouble. Every time you have been confronted with this fact you have become defensive and tried to obfuscate. This does not fill a person with confidence. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"A sex cinema had a fire some years ago in London, where many people died. I can imagine that from that point onwards there was a change in direction from the licensing and enforcement people, to ensure that no such tragedy ever happened again. I really have no clue about licensing of the op's business and premises but perceive that if operating in competition with other businesses then it's probably wise to compete on equal terms. Yes I agree and nobody is debating that, in fact if there are some clubs that are operating with very poor standards is because they dare not ask for the council permission to refurbish them for fear to be closed down! If only it was possible to go to the Planning Department and openly say: - I would like to open a Swinger Club please - - Yes with pleasure do take leaflet XXX you need this Licence, this Change of Use and you have to comply with these Health and Safety BUT there isn't!!! NOT as it is In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain you see? How can anyone do something according the law if this is not recognised? Perhaps UK wants to stay out of Europe, maybe British prefer to remain at the Victorian times ignoring the fact that is the 21st Century but I am sure we all agree in here that most people like sex?
There are a great many swingers clubs which operate fine which suggest you are wrong.
Fine so prove me that there is a Swingers Licence that you can apply for?
This is a murky area and it's all in control of the Discretion of each independent Council. Naturally they cannot object on Morality but they find alternative issues to stop you from doing it. It may be easier in the North but it is not so in London I can assure you.
Once again had I even 'faked' to open an Establishment for Gays I would have got away BUT PLEASE understand that I am completely sympathetic with the Gay Scene and have nothing against them at all... I only wish Swingers learnt something from the Gays to be Proud of what they are and stick more together as I strongly believe this is the reason why we are being bullied and not allowed to open Clubs or own own discreet meeting places as any other Sexual Minority is allowed to do
That is not what I said.
I said that there is clearly a legal and allowed way to operate a swingers club. This is due to the large number of clubs who operate legally and with the support of their communities.
It is not only swingers clubs who face closure. Nightclubs, casinos etc. All face similar problems. If you have one neighbour who does not like the activities or has been affected by anti social patrons then you will have a problem.
You say that you can get your local residents to support you. Do you have 100 of these residents? Do you have proof that every customer ever leaving your club has acted in a wholly responsible and social manner?
If not, you cannot say that any complaints are without foundation.
Again, many many clubs operate openly and legally and without trouble.
Every time you have been confronted with this fact you have become defensive and tried to obfuscate. This does not fill a person with confidence."p I meant to say, many clubs in London also. | |||
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| Reply privately |
"A sex cinema had a fire some years ago in London, where many people died. I can imagine that from that point onwards there was a change in direction from the licensing and enforcement people, to ensure that no such tragedy ever happened again. I really have no clue about licensing of the op's business and premises but perceive that if operating in competition with other businesses then it's probably wise to compete on equal terms. Yes I agree and nobody is debating that, in fact if there are some clubs that are operating with very poor standards is because they dare not ask for the council permission to refurbish them for fear to be closed down! If only it was possible to go to the Planning Department and openly say: - I would like to open a Swinger Club please - - Yes with pleasure do take leaflet XXX you need this Licence, this Change of Use and you have to comply with these Health and Safety BUT there isn't!!! NOT as it is In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain you see? How can anyone do something according the law if this is not recognised? Perhaps UK wants to stay out of Europe, maybe British prefer to remain at the Victorian times ignoring the fact that is the 21st Century but I am sure we all agree in here that most people like sex?
There are a great many swingers clubs which operate fine which suggest you are wrong.
Fine so prove me that there is a Swingers Licence that you can apply for?
This is a murky area and it's all in control of the Discretion of each independent Council. Naturally they cannot object on Morality but they find alternative issues to stop you from doing it. It may be easier in the North but it is not so in London I can assure you.
Once again had I even 'faked' to open an Establishment for Gays I would have got away BUT PLEASE understand that I am completely sympathetic with the Gay Scene and have nothing against them at all... I only wish Swingers learnt something from the Gays to be Proud of what they are and stick more together as I strongly believe this is the reason why we are being bullied and not allowed to open Clubs or own own discreet meeting places as any other Sexual Minority is allowed to do
That is not what I said.
I said that there is clearly a legal and allowed way to operate a swingers club. This is due to the large number of clubs who operate legally and with the support of their communities.
It is not only swingers clubs who face closure. Nightclubs, casinos etc. All face similar problems. If you have one neighbour who does not like the activities or has been affected by anti social patrons then you will have a problem.
You say that you can get your local residents to support you. Do you have 100 of these residents? Do you have proof that every customer ever leaving your club has acted in a wholly responsible and social manner?
If not, you cannot say that any complaints are without foundation.
Again, many many clubs operate openly and legally and without trouble.
Every time you have been confronted with this fact you have become defensive and tried to obfuscate. This does not fill a person with confidence."As I said earlier, yes I had CCTV evidence to prove otherwise, how can you prove that those accusations were lies? No I did not have 100 signatures, but the immediate residents said it was very unfair because had they heard any nuisance they would have been the first to knock on my door. I am not the type of person that likes to argue and I accepted defeat, there are of course other establishments that have been under threat of closures for years and they continue trading with legals disputes! I just have the feeling that Swingers are being discriminated and bullied because we do not stand on our own feet and this is my personal opinion but I could be wrong! | |||
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(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"A sex cinema had a fire some years ago in London, where many people died. I can imagine that from that point onwards there was a change in direction from the licensing and enforcement people, to ensure that no such tragedy ever happened again. I really have no clue about licensing of the op's business and premises but perceive that if operating in competition with other businesses then it's probably wise to compete on equal terms. Yes I agree and nobody is debating that, in fact if there are some clubs that are operating with very poor standards is because they dare not ask for the council permission to refurbish them for fear to be closed down! If only it was possible to go to the Planning Department and openly say: - I would like to open a Swinger Club please - - Yes with pleasure do take leaflet XXX you need this Licence, this Change of Use and you have to comply with these Health and Safety BUT there isn't!!! NOT as it is In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain you see? How can anyone do something according the law if this is not recognised? Perhaps UK wants to stay out of Europe, maybe British prefer to remain at the Victorian times ignoring the fact that is the 21st Century but I am sure we all agree in here that most people like sex?
There are a great many swingers clubs which operate fine which suggest you are wrong.
Fine so prove me that there is a Swingers Licence that you can apply for?
This is a murky area and it's all in control of the Discretion of each independent Council. Naturally they cannot object on Morality but they find alternative issues to stop you from doing it. It may be easier in the North but it is not so in London I can assure you.
Once again had I even 'faked' to open an Establishment for Gays I would have got away BUT PLEASE understand that I am completely sympathetic with the Gay Scene and have nothing against them at all... I only wish Swingers learnt something from the Gays to be Proud of what they are and stick more together as I strongly believe this is the reason why we are being bullied and not allowed to open Clubs or own own discreet meeting places as any other Sexual Minority is allowed to do
That is not what I said.
I said that there is clearly a legal and allowed way to operate a swingers club. This is due to the large number of clubs who operate legally and with the support of their communities.
It is not only swingers clubs who face closure. Nightclubs, casinos etc. All face similar problems. If you have one neighbour who does not like the activities or has been affected by anti social patrons then you will have a problem.
You say that you can get your local residents to support you. Do you have 100 of these residents? Do you have proof that every customer ever leaving your club has acted in a wholly responsible and social manner?
If not, you cannot say that any complaints are without foundation.
Again, many many clubs operate openly and legally and without trouble.
Every time you have been confronted with this fact you have become defensive and tried to obfuscate. This does not fill a person with confidence.
As I said earlier, yes I had CCTV evidence to prove otherwise, how can you prove that those accusations were lies?
No I did not have 100 signatures, but the immediate residents said it was very unfair because had they heard any nuisance they would have been the first to knock on my door.
I am not the type of person that likes to argue and I accepted defeat, there are of course other establishments that have been under threat of closures for years and they continue trading with legals disputes!
I just have the feeling that Swingers are being discriminated and bullied because we do not stand on our own feet and this is my personal opinion but I could be wrong! "I did not say they were lies. I asked if you have 100% coverage of 100% of people 100% of the time. This is my point. You react defensively and aggressively and only cite circumstantial and anecdotal evidence. You have then come up with an overall conspiracy to suggest that everyone is against you for something perfectly reasonable. At no time have you suggested that you may have been amiss. So it seems that you have done nothing wrong and the whole world is against you. Tough times. | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! Tragically he killed himself. He was not actively killed by the state or another person. Although you could argue easily that the state played a pivotal and frankly unacceptable role in driving him to kill himself. That makes no difference whatsoever to the argument that you cannot simply define someone by their sexuality, " He was poisoned. Maybe he poisoned himself, maybe not. The reason he was killed or committed suicide was because lots of other people simply defined him by his sexuality. His amazing achievements were a footnote to the fact his was gay. You keep saying it doesn't happen, it does. | |||
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"As I understand it there are several clubs thar operate legally within the London district, have you considered speaking to the owners of them to help you understand the rules better so that you can operate on a similar playing field? Aside from that for a post about discrimination there seems to be quite a lot of prejudice coming from the OP be it someones sexual orientation, the way they operate their profile or simply because they don't support your views to try and circumnavigate the legal process of opening on swinging club. I see from your profile you are happy to discriminate against BBW - so as long as someone is fat discrimination is okay right?" Yes I know most clubs in London and without mentioning anyone specifically one is a Yoga Studio secretly trading as a swinger club, another a Naturist Club and so on, whether these is to be kept undercover to the public or the regulations allowed as in Brothels trading under the name of Sauna Parlous this is a total different matter. We DO NOT discriminate against BBW we encourage people to take good care of themselves which is different and should be understood as inspirational as indeed there ought to be virtually unlimited choices for each one of us. For instance by advertising clearly what we do, allow people to attend or not to attend a particular party without misinterpretation and as we can see from the CLUB listings there is plenty of choice of places to go to. | |||
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"So to sum up, unlicensed club gets busted. Blames it on discrimination. " Damn I need to work on my ability to summarise what is going on. Are you giving lessons? | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! Tragically he killed himself. He was not actively killed by the state or another person. Although you could argue easily that the state played a pivotal and frankly unacceptable role in driving him to kill himself. That makes no difference whatsoever to the argument that you cannot simply define someone by their sexuality, He was poisoned. Maybe he poisoned himself, maybe not. The reason he was killed or committed suicide was because lots of other people simply defined him by his sexuality. His amazing achievements were a footnote to the fact his was gay. You keep saying it doesn't happen, it does. " You are not reading anything I write. I am not saying it does not happen. I am saying that those who do it are really boring tedious people and most of all, wrong. Please, please read what is written. | |||
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"As I understand it there are several clubs thar operate legally within the London district, have you considered speaking to the owners of them to help you understand the rules better so that you can operate on a similar playing field? Aside from that for a post about discrimination there seems to be quite a lot of prejudice coming from the OP be it someones sexual orientation, the way they operate their profile or simply because they don't support your views to try and circumnavigate the legal process of opening on swinging club. I see from your profile you are happy to discriminate against BBW - so as long as someone is fat discrimination is okay right? Yes I know most clubs in London and without mentioning anyone specifically one is a Yoga Studio secretly trading as a swinger club, another a Naturist Club and so on, whether these is to be kept undercover to the public or the regulations allowed as in Brothels trading under the name of Sauna Parlous this is a total different matter. We DO NOT discriminate against BBW we encourage people to take good care of themselves which is different and should be understood as inspirational as indeed there ought to be virtually unlimited choices for each one of us. For instance by advertising clearly what we do, allow people to attend or not to attend a particular party without misinterpretation and as we can see from the CLUB listings there is plenty of choice of places to go to." So this little snippet wasn't taken direct from your profile then? We are not ashamed to discriminate on "OO" (overly-obese) people aka BBW's because they have a choice to be the way they are | |||
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"So to sum up, unlicensed club gets busted. Blames it on discrimination. " I believe Gays have fought a lot to be accepted and understood the way they are and deserves 100% the position they have achieved today in the society. We 'Swingers' have a lot to learn from Gays and not only the basic rule "no" means NO that we have inherited from the Gay Scene... | |||
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"As I understand it there are several clubs thar operate legally within the London district, have you considered speaking to the owners of them to help you understand the rules better so that you can operate on a similar playing field? Aside from that for a post about discrimination there seems to be quite a lot of prejudice coming from the OP be it someones sexual orientation, the way they operate their profile or simply because they don't support your views to try and circumnavigate the legal process of opening on swinging club. I see from your profile you are happy to discriminate against BBW - so as long as someone is fat discrimination is okay right? Yes I know most clubs in London and without mentioning anyone specifically one is a Yoga Studio secretly trading as a swinger club, another a Naturist Club and so on, whether these is to be kept undercover to the public or the regulations allowed as in Brothels trading under the name of Sauna Parlous this is a total different matter. We DO NOT discriminate against BBW we encourage people to take good care of themselves which is different and should be understood as inspirational as indeed there ought to be virtually unlimited choices for each one of us. For instance by advertising clearly what we do, allow people to attend or not to attend a particular party without misinterpretation and as we can see from the CLUB listings there is plenty of choice of places to go to. So this little snippet wasn't taken direct from your profile then? We are not ashamed to discriminate on "OO" (overly-obese) people aka BBW's because they have a choice to be the way they are "Yes because you are not born Black or Gay you have a choice to loose weight if you so want | |||
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| Reply privately |
" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! Tragically he killed himself. He was not actively killed by the state or another person. Although you could argue easily that the state played a pivotal and frankly unacceptable role in driving him to kill himself. That makes no difference whatsoever to the argument that you cannot simply define someone by their sexuality, He was poisoned. Maybe he poisoned himself, maybe not. The reason he was killed or committed suicide was because lots of other people simply defined him by his sexuality. His amazing achievements were a footnote to the fact his was gay. You keep saying it doesn't happen, it does. You are not reading anything I write. I am not saying it does not happen. I am saying that those who do it are really boring tedious people and most of all, wrong. Please, please read what is written." Yes I appreciate that, but there should not be the need to... as we are doing nothing wrong and we should need our own space to socialise and/or to have consensual sex between adults and this is what we should make it loud and clear!!! | |||
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(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! Tragically he killed himself. He was not actively killed by the state or another person. Although you could argue easily that the state played a pivotal and frankly unacceptable role in driving him to kill himself. That makes no difference whatsoever to the argument that you cannot simply define someone by their sexuality, He was poisoned. Maybe he poisoned himself, maybe not. The reason he was killed or committed suicide was because lots of other people simply defined him by his sexuality. His amazing achievements were a footnote to the fact his was gay. You keep saying it doesn't happen, it does. You are not reading anything I write. I am not saying it does not happen. I am saying that those who do it are really boring tedious people and most of all, wrong. Please, please read what is written." So what are we disagreeing about? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"As I understand it there are several clubs thar operate legally within the London district, have you considered speaking to the owners of them to help you understand the rules better so that you can operate on a similar playing field? Aside from that for a post about discrimination there seems to be quite a lot of prejudice coming from the OP be it someones sexual orientation, the way they operate their profile or simply because they don't support your views to try and circumnavigate the legal process of opening on swinging club. I see from your profile you are happy to discriminate against BBW - so as long as someone is fat discrimination is okay right? Yes I know most clubs in London and without mentioning anyone specifically one is a Yoga Studio secretly trading as a swinger club, another a Naturist Club and so on, whether these is to be kept undercover to the public or the regulations allowed as in Brothels trading under the name of Sauna Parlous this is a total different matter. We DO NOT discriminate against BBW we encourage people to take good care of themselves which is different and should be understood as inspirational as indeed there ought to be virtually unlimited choices for each one of us. For instance by advertising clearly what we do, allow people to attend or not to attend a particular party without misinterpretation and as we can see from the CLUB listings there is plenty of choice of places to go to. So this little snippet wasn't taken direct from your profile then? We are not ashamed to discriminate on "OO" (overly-obese) people aka BBW's because they have a choice to be the way they are
Yes because you are not born Black or Gay you have a choice to loose weight if you so want "Well that doesn't really make the sense I guess you hoped it would, yes I can choose to lose not loose weight, shame there isn't something similar for bad attitudes... | |||
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"Yes I appreciate that, but there should not be the need to... as we are doing nothing wrong and we should need our own space to socialise and/or to have consensual sex between adults and this is what we should make it loud and clear!!!" There are plenty of places to socialise and/or to have consensual sex between adults up and down the country. The vast majority of them work with their local authorities. I would imagine it's not swingers that were discriminated against in this case but the user of a premises that was acting without all the requisite licences and authorities. As many have already said, we don't feel discriminated against, nor do we want to publicise our sex lives. However, our lack of photos and fabs is totally because we're ugly fuckers. | |||
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| Reply privately |
" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! Tragically he killed himself. He was not actively killed by the state or another person. Although you could argue easily that the state played a pivotal and frankly unacceptable role in driving him to kill himself. That makes no difference whatsoever to the argument that you cannot simply define someone by their sexuality, He was poisoned. Maybe he poisoned himself, maybe not. The reason he was killed or committed suicide was because lots of other people simply defined him by his sexuality. His amazing achievements were a footnote to the fact his was gay. You keep saying it doesn't happen, it does. You are not reading anything I write. I am not saying it does not happen. I am saying that those who do it are really boring tedious people and most of all, wrong. Please, please read what is written. So what are we disagreeing about? " We are not disagreeing. You are attacking what I supposedly write and then write something which basically agrees with me! That is what i am failing to understand, hence my heartfelt request that you actually read the word I write and don't just look for something you can abstract and attack. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! Tragically he killed himself. He was not actively killed by the state or another person. Although you could argue easily that the state played a pivotal and frankly unacceptable role in driving him to kill himself. That makes no difference whatsoever to the argument that you cannot simply define someone by their sexuality, He was poisoned. Maybe he poisoned himself, maybe not. The reason he was killed or committed suicide was because lots of other people simply defined him by his sexuality. His amazing achievements were a footnote to the fact his was gay. You keep saying it doesn't happen, it does. You are not reading anything I write. I am not saying it does not happen. I am saying that those who do it are really boring tedious people and most of all, wrong. Please, please read what is written. So what are we disagreeing about? We are not disagreeing. You are attacking what I supposedly write and then write something which basically agrees with me! That is what i am failing to understand, hence my heartfelt request that you actually read the word I write and don't just look for something you can abstract and attack." All I said was that if swingers don't stand up for themselves then they will face discrimination... you might not want to define yourself (entirely) as a swinger but other people won't give you the choice. | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! Tragically he killed himself. He was not actively killed by the state or another person. Although you could argue easily that the state played a pivotal and frankly unacceptable role in driving him to kill himself. That makes no difference whatsoever to the argument that you cannot simply define someone by their sexuality, He was poisoned. Maybe he poisoned himself, maybe not. The reason he was killed or committed suicide was because lots of other people simply defined him by his sexuality. His amazing achievements were a footnote to the fact his was gay. You keep saying it doesn't happen, it does. You are not reading anything I write. I am not saying it does not happen. I am saying that those who do it are really boring tedious people and most of all, wrong. Please, please read what is written. So what are we disagreeing about? We are not disagreeing. You are attacking what I supposedly write and then write something which basically agrees with me! That is what i am failing to understand, hence my heartfelt request that you actually read the word I write and don't just look for something you can abstract and attack. All I said was that if swingers don't stand up for themselves then they will face discrimination... you might not want to define yourself (entirely) as a swinger but other people won't give you the choice." | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! Tragically he killed himself. He was not actively killed by the state or another person. Although you could argue easily that the state played a pivotal and frankly unacceptable role in driving him to kill himself. That makes no difference whatsoever to the argument that you cannot simply define someone by their sexuality, He was poisoned. Maybe he poisoned himself, maybe not. The reason he was killed or committed suicide was because lots of other people simply defined him by his sexuality. His amazing achievements were a footnote to the fact his was gay. You keep saying it doesn't happen, it does. You are not reading anything I write. I am not saying it does not happen. I am saying that those who do it are really boring tedious people and most of all, wrong. Please, please read what is written. So what are we disagreeing about? We are not disagreeing. You are attacking what I supposedly write and then write something which basically agrees with me! That is what i am failing to understand, hence my heartfelt request that you actually read the word I write and don't just look for something you can abstract and attack. All I said was that if swingers don't stand up for themselves then they will face discrimination... you might not want to define yourself (entirely) as a swinger but other people won't give you the choice." Fuck 'em, what they think is not relevant. How to take a population to war against their wishes in three easy steps: 1: convince them they are under attack from the proposed enemy. 2: convince them that the only way out is to fight. 3: start a war. The lesser known fourth step: many many people who did not want to be involved die. Let's tone down the rhetoric shall we? | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! Tragically he killed himself. He was not actively killed by the state or another person. Although you could argue easily that the state played a pivotal and frankly unacceptable role in driving him to kill himself. That makes no difference whatsoever to the argument that you cannot simply define someone by their sexuality, He was poisoned. Maybe he poisoned himself, maybe not. The reason he was killed or committed suicide was because lots of other people simply defined him by his sexuality. His amazing achievements were a footnote to the fact his was gay. You keep saying it doesn't happen, it does. You are not reading anything I write. I am not saying it does not happen. I am saying that those who do it are really boring tedious people and most of all, wrong. Please, please read what is written. So what are we disagreeing about? We are not disagreeing. You are attacking what I supposedly write and then write something which basically agrees with me! That is what i am failing to understand, hence my heartfelt request that you actually read the word I write and don't just look for something you can abstract and attack. All I said was that if swingers don't stand up for themselves then they will face discrimination... you might not want to define yourself (entirely) as a swinger but other people won't give you the choice. Fuck 'em, what they think is not relevant. How to take a population to war against their wishes in three easy steps: 1: convince them they are under attack from the proposed enemy. 2: convince them that the only way out is to fight. 3: start a war. The lesser known fourth step: many many people who did not want to be involved die. Let's tone down the rhetoric shall we? " I don't remember the LGBT community starting a war when they were tired of discrimination. | |||
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"Ref discrimination against the LGBT community and being a business, I notice that you've blocked TG from contacting you on your profile here. Your business page has no TG category on it, just 'knights' (with £50 membership fees), couples and 'princesses' and then all of the requests for height, a face picture, a body pic and body type. The ethos of the club claims it doesn't discriminate, but then goes on to say that people have to take care of themselves and that you aren't ashamed to discriminate against BBWs. There is a lot of talk under FAQ about males and females, but nothing about TG or gay people, in fact your website only states that people will see 'Guys with girls, girls with girls, or groups together'. Parties are pay in advance, but only if you 'are under 45, attractive, professional, sexually confident and who are likely to fit in.' So, it's basically a paying business that discriminates and was busted. " I have aspirations to be under 45 but sadly I will never be again. Am I being discriminated against? If so, then I agree with the OP, swingers of a certain age and sexuality are blatantly being discriminated against .... | |||
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" So… apparently it’s ok for Gay Men to fuck one another but not the same for Straight Couples to swap their wives?? My question to you is this: - It’s about time that us swingers came out of the closet and proudly admitted that we should be respected as another sexual minority, perhaps a ‘highly sexual minority’ but nevertheless another Sexual Minority as the Homosexual one and became more a strong community to defend one another! – I don't want to be part of any community that pits itself against 'the homosexual one'. Your writing comes across as very bigoted. If you're not, then you might want to write in a more considered fashion. This is exactly right. We are not a community in that way. The entire point of swinging is that we don't follow traditional boundaries and simply do what each other is comfortable with. Politicians or want-to-be politicians spend too much time dividing us into easy to identify issue-groups which make it easier for them to "represent" us. It also makes it easier for us to be pitted against each other for political gain. Additionally I know no homosexuals who can only be represented as "homosexual" they are all multi-faceted individuals and their sexuality is only be part of their personality. Those who only use homosexual to define themselves are quite tiresome in general. As are those who swing and only use swinger to define all things about them. Swingers do not need to rise up and be represented. We just need to work hard and have fun. But it wasn't always like that! Alan Turing is a veritable national hero but because he was homosexual, he was basically killed because of prejudice at the time. He didn't define his whole identity as homosexual, but people at the time couldn't see past that and entirely defined him by it. The LGBT community has been incredibly successful at driving change since those dark days and it's now illegal to discriminate against them. Good for them and can we have more of the same please. I think if you were to be tasked with defining Alan Turing in one word, it would be scientist, mathematician or similar. His sexuality is irrelevant. I would suggest it is not homosexual people who define them simply as homosexual. I would suggest it is those who have no idea what they are taking about. The need for representation in a bigoted society does not mean that we need to define people in very laboured and simplistic terms, it means we need to realise that sexual habits and sexuality are only one little part of a much much larger whole and that those whose sexual orientation differs to us, are different only in that way and that way is insignificant when dealing with people on a day to day basis. Those who let their sexuality define them are usually very very tiresome. He wasn't killed for being a mathematician was he!! Tragically he killed himself. He was not actively killed by the state or another person. Although you could argue easily that the state played a pivotal and frankly unacceptable role in driving him to kill himself. That makes no difference whatsoever to the argument that you cannot simply define someone by their sexuality, He was poisoned. Maybe he poisoned himself, maybe not. The reason he was killed or committed suicide was because lots of other people simply defined him by his sexuality. His amazing achievements were a footnote to the fact his was gay. You keep saying it doesn't happen, it does. You are not reading anything I write. I am not saying it does not happen. I am saying that those who do it are really boring tedious people and most of all, wrong. Please, please read what is written. So what are we disagreeing about? We are not disagreeing. You are attacking what I supposedly write and then write something which basically agrees with me! That is what i am failing to understand, hence my heartfelt request that you actually read the word I write and don't just look for something you can abstract and attack. All I said was that if swingers don't stand up for themselves then they will face discrimination... you might not want to define yourself (entirely) as a swinger but other people won't give you the choice. Fuck 'em, what they think is not relevant. How to take a population to war against their wishes in three easy steps: 1: convince them they are under attack from the proposed enemy. 2: convince them that the only way out is to fight. 3: start a war. The lesser known fourth step: many many people who did not want to be involved die. Let's tone down the rhetoric shall we? I don't remember the LGBT community starting a war when they were tired of discrimination." Me neither, but swingers are not in anything like the position they were in, so to talk in similar ways is not helpful to a debate. | |||
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"Ref discrimination against the LGBT community and being a business, I notice that you've blocked TG from contacting you on your profile here. Your business page has no TG category on it, just 'knights' (with £50 membership fees), couples and 'princesses' and then all of the requests for height, a face picture, a body pic and body type. The ethos of the club claims it doesn't discriminate, but then goes on to say that people have to take care of themselves and that you aren't ashamed to discriminate against BBWs. There is a lot of talk under FAQ about males and females, but nothing about TG or gay people, in fact your website only states that people will see 'Guys with girls, girls with girls, or groups together'. Parties are pay in advance, but only if you 'are under 45, attractive, professional, sexually confident and who are likely to fit in.' So, it's basically a paying business that discriminates and was busted. " The business was never busted we were asking for the necessary approval which we were asked to withheld because we were being too upfront with it! There is no such a thing as a Swinger License in uk this classification doesn't exist! You are allowed to do it under a different trading name so that when the shit start hitting the fan the authorities can argue you did not have the permission! With regards to TV as our Community encourage people to take good care of themselves we think that a Man who wears a wig and uses the make up as a clown is is not appropriate for the quality of our parties but a TS is considered a Princesses as even pre-op TS have a Female Gender on their passport. As we do not require any form of ID the age is not a major issue providing you take good care of yourself in fact I will add that some 48 years old are better looking of some 24 years old not to mention some TS looks better than many women! I hope the above will explain your concern from your research? | |||
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"OP, reading thru this lot.... You are fucking nuts. Not to mention deluded." Now I can't get the image of a miss world beauty contest out of my mind .... sorry, thought all that had gone out in the seventies ... personally I want world peace ... | |||
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"discrimination stems from jealousy "No it doesn't | |||
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" With regards to TV as our Community encourage people to take good care of themselves we think that a Man who wears a wig and uses the make up as a clown is is not appropriate for the quality of our parties " What an ugly thing to say. I can understand the lack of sympathy about you getting busted now. | |||
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"There are responses here that show an awareness of the issues in organising a completely legal "sex club" and many others that demonstrate they only know what the Daily Mail gives them. Here's the FACTS. The UK has very draconian rules that must be 101% obeyed with yet they provide the vendors seeking acceptance with absolutely no guarantees at all. Huge amounts of cash have to be paid up front and on an annual basis too in many cases. Yet, despite Councils being able to "milk" sex clubs as a "cash cow", they can change their minds in a flash and close an otherwise legal establishment down. There are "national rules" relating to "sex clubs and similar" that Councils not only use but can tweak ANYTHING in them to suit themselves. Quoted London as something different as when these laws came out about three years ago it was felt they could not be retrospectively applied to "Metropolitan conditions". Readers please note . . the Government laid out the ground rules but it is local councillors and local people who decide what is "right" for their neighbourhood. The door is wide open to religious zealots, do-gooders and other freaks to exercise more power than they ever had before! It's a game of roulette with the odds well stacked against the vendor. Our example of a friends "private club" being closed by "neighbours" was met with some incredulity as if "neighbours" have no power. They do! The "private sex and fetish club" to which I refer was in the NW and was all above board. But some disgruntled individual did a house to house mail drop giving details of what the private club did very privately. That got neighbours phoning and writing to their council and our friends had visit from them, HSE, licensing - even though there was no alcohol involved - and the Police too. They actually found no immediate reason to "close the joint" but the whole thing being in the Press proved the death kneel. One councillor made a personal vendetta over it and then played the ultimate "ace card" . . . there was a school half a mile down the road. That was all it took for the pressure to resume and eventually our friends said enough is enough! A not dissimilar thing happened a couple of years ago to a private fetish club being set up in the Newport area by an individual highly respected. Somebody took a dislike to it and mail-dropped the neighbours, same thing, a visit on a club night by loads of officials. The vendors closed it there and then to protect the identities of their guests. NIMBIES . . . NOT . . . IN . . . MY . . . BACK-Yard!!!! Otherwise known as "neighbours". The only thing that surprises me is that some people still want to beat themselves up doing this! . . . and their reward? So many wonderful people then complain about the prices! Ignorant fools!!!!" Thank you! | |||
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"Sad to hear this and know friends who had their "private club" broken up by "concerned neighbours"...Councils rake in huge amounts of "taxes" from "adult venues" . . and then other committee members over-use their powers to close them down!" I remember some time ago writing a post on another site of which I am a member...it dealt with an attack on the Tudor Lodge in Birmingham. Some of the fearmongering outcries amongst 'concerned neighbours,' together with the shrieks of horror emigrating from nameless 'moral guardians' in the online comments section of the tabloids was horrifying. | |||
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"“Are swingers, who are less visible and tend to lead more "acceptable" lives than some other subcultures, next up for discrimination? " And what, pray tell, are you doing to improve the situation when you are running your 'club' along such exclusivist, superficial, discriminatory lines? Here's a couple of gems from your website: "We only admit people who are under 45, attractive, professional, sexually confident and who are likely to fit in." "Only applicants who meet our selection criteria on looks, profession etc will be accepted." So in other words, you only admit people who adhere to YOUR own personal standards of 'attractiveness' and 'lifestyle.' I'm quite glad that I, as a fat guy, would never be invited to join your club. I would never demean myself to spend my time with such fatuous, self-centred, arrogant, egotistical persons as yourselves. | |||
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"I would love the day you can walk into one club that allows all str8 bi gay trans all having fun under one roof with lots of rooms .. that's the club we would go to .. " WELL SAID! | |||
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"I would love the day you can walk into one club that allows all str8 bi gay trans all having fun under one roof with lots of rooms .. that's the club we would go to .. " To be fair club owners are looking to make money. Not make people happy | |||
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"I would love the day you can walk into one club that allows all str8 bi gay trans all having fun under one roof with lots of rooms .. that's the club we would go to .. To be fair club owners are looking to make money. Not make people happy "doesent one help the other make customer happy they come back and spend more | |||
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"I would love the day you can walk into one club that allows all str8 bi gay trans all having fun under one roof with lots of rooms .. that's the club we would go to .. To be fair club owners are looking to make money. Not make people happy doesent one help the other make customer happy they come back and spend more "In my opinion no. A club is a business first , so they will do everything in there power to make money. If a club starts making more money on a gay night than straight night. Guess what? They will become a gay club and screw their straight clients. And vice versa. It's not nefarious, it's just good business. Rent isn't cheap | |||
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"“Are swingers, who are less visible and tend to lead more "acceptable" lives than some other subcultures, next up for discrimination? And what, pray tell, are you doing to improve the situation when you are running your 'club' along such exclusivist, superficial, discriminatory lines? Here's a couple of gems from your website: "We only admit people who are under 45, attractive, professional, sexually confident and who are likely to fit in." "Only applicants who meet our selection criteria on looks, profession etc will be accepted." So in other words, you only admit people who adhere to YOUR own personal standards of 'attractiveness' and 'lifestyle.' I'm quite glad that I, as a fat guy, would never be invited to join your club. I would never demean myself to spend my time with such fatuous, self-centred, arrogant, egotistical persons as yourselves." So what's your problem? You are glad to be a fat guy we would never invite you to join our club, there are so many other clubs you could go to... Why on earth would you want to come to our parties? | |||
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"I would love the day you can walk into one club that allows all str8 bi gay trans all having fun under one roof with lots of rooms .. that's the club we would go to .. " But there are so many clubs that allow just about anybody under one roof with lots of rooms you can hide or escape from unwanted players!!!! It's in fact quite the opposite, some players would not want to go in such clubs and prefer to be selected to attend parties where other people have been vetted and tale good care of themselves with a certain amount of intellect and good sense of humor so everyone is happy and you should know exactly which club to avoid if it's not for you! We are not forcing anyone to come to us! We refuse 2 applicants in 3 for your information | |||
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"“What's your problem? You are glad to be a fat guy we would never invite you to join our club, there are so many other clubs you could go to... Why on earth would you want to come to our parties?" My problem is that you are complaining about being discriminated against when you yourselves are subjecting whole swathes of potential clients to your own discriminatory policies. I wouldn't wish to be seen dead at one of your parties, or at any other swinging event where the criteria for attendance includes meeting a minimum 'beauty standard' and 'sexual confidence.' The reason I say that I am glad that I shall never be invited to your gatherings is that it spares me the unpleasant experience of being told to my face that I'm too 'fat' and 'ugly' to be admitted to your precious little circle. It also spares me the risk of criminal prosecution for rearranging your smug physiognomy into something that matches your internal ugliness. | |||
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" Here's a couple of gems from your website: "We only admit people who are under 45, attractive, professional, sexually confident and who are likely to fit in." "Only applicants who meet our selection criteria on looks, profession etc will be accepted." " Why, sir... I have examined your profile and it appears that you are 46 years old. And your pictures on your profile are 2.5 years old.... My question is, would you use that criteria from an applicant to attend one of these functions? It's rather like George Orwell's 'Animal Farm', me thinks. 'Some animals are more equal than others.' | |||
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" Here's a couple of gems from your website: "We only admit people who are under 45, attractive, professional, sexually confident and who are likely to fit in." "Only applicants who meet our selection criteria on looks, profession etc will be accepted." Why, sir... I have examined your profile and it appears that you are 46 years old. And your pictures on your profile are 2.5 years old.... My question is, would you use that criteria from an applicant to attend one of these functions? It's rather like George Orwell's 'Animal Farm', me thinks. 'Some animals are more equal than others.' " Nice one! I hadn't noticed that. Looks like you've got the owners of City Slickers by the balls...if they have any that is... | |||
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" Here's a couple of gems from your website: "We only admit people who are under 45, attractive, professional, sexually confident and who are likely to fit in." "Only applicants who meet our selection criteria on looks, profession etc will be accepted." Why, sir... I have examined your profile and it appears that you are 46 years old. And your pictures on your profile are 2.5 years old.... My question is, would you use that criteria from an applicant to attend one of these functions? It's rather like George Orwell's 'Animal Farm', me thinks. 'Some animals are more equal than others.' " Look common sense is not allowed in this thread. Now I ask you to please take all your intelligence and go elsewhere  | |||
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"“What's your problem? You are glad to be a fat guy we would never invite you to join our club, there are so many other clubs you could go to... Why on earth would you want to come to our parties? My problem is that you are complaining about being discriminated against when you yourselves are subjecting whole swathes of potential clients to your own discriminatory policies. I wouldn't wish to be seen dead at one of your parties, or at any other swinging event where the criteria for attendance includes meeting a minimum 'beauty standard' and 'sexual confidence.' The reason I say that I am glad that I shall never be invited to your gatherings is that it spares me the unpleasant experience of being told to my face that I'm too 'fat' and 'ugly' to be admitted to your precious little circle. It also spares me the risk of criminal prosecution for rearranging your smug physiognomy into something that matches your internal ugliness. " We would not tell you in face but as a single guy you would have to be introduced to the club by a female member who can vouch for you! | |||
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" Here's a couple of gems from your website: "We only admit people who are under 45, attractive, professional, sexually confident and who are likely to fit in." "Only applicants who meet our selection criteria on looks, profession etc will be accepted." Why, sir... I have examined your profile and it appears that you are 46 years old. And your pictures on your profile are 2.5 years old.... My question is, would you use that criteria from an applicant to attend one of these functions? It's rather like George Orwell's 'Animal Farm', me thinks. 'Some animals are more equal than others.' Look common sense is not allowed in this thread. Now I ask you to please take all your intelligence and go elsewhere "Tippy toes out of thread, leaving a copy of 'Peter Pan', a dvd of 'Logan's Run' and remnants of popcorn... | |||
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". . . 'Some animals are more equal than others.' Look common sense is not allowed in this thread. Now I ask you to please take all your intelligence and go elsewhere "
Whilst it's true that the word "discrimination" may be working in two different directions here that is life, nobody has the automatic right to either conduct a business that others don't want nor - listen up - does the presence of a swinging club mean ANYBODY is permitted through the doors. Business is business . . as the Scottish Golf Club that has lost the right to home the Open has found out recently.
Lot of envious back-biting in this thread. | |||
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"Lots of disgraceful behaviour on this thread. A lot of you are taking the hump with the owners bussiness. Try looking at the actual point because it's important. People cannot be discriminated due to their sexual orinentation. But swingers do not have the same leagal safeguards. The reason we do not have these safeguards is because we have no "stonewall" no public face, and nobody to represent us. This needs to change. " Why do we need someone to represent us though? I think early in in the thread someone said they don't take their whole identify from being a swinger ... I know I am more than the sum of those parts. My experience is good enough and really, I don't feel discriminated against as a swinger .... but I have seen and experienced real discrimination. | |||
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"Lots of disgraceful behaviour on this thread. A lot of you are taking the hump with the owners bussiness. Trying looking at the actual point because it's important." I never denied that the situation regarding the public perception of swinging did not require to be changed; in fact, my first post in this thread was directly concerned with that point. However, the fact remains that the OP's business, rather than providing an inclusive environment for all swingers, caters instead to the most egotistical, vain and self-centred of clients, and creates divisions within the swinging community. | |||
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". . . 'Some animals are more equal than others.' Look common sense is not allowed in this thread. Now I ask you to please take all your intelligence and go elsewhere
Whilst it's true that the word "discrimination" may be working in two different directions here that is life, nobody has the automatic right to either conduct a business that others don't want nor - listen up - does the presence of a swinging club mean ANYBODY is permitted through the doors. Business is business . . as the Scottish Golf Club that has lost the right to home the Open has found out recently.
Lot of envious back-biting in this thread. "That golf club lost the right to host the Open because women and men are now able to compete on EQUAL TERMS in international golf tournaments, but the club's members wished to remain stuck in the 19th Century, and refuse women membership. It is the policy of Golf's governing body that ALL clubs hosting The Open must permit both men and women to hold membership on equal terms. Or is the sexual equality objectionable to you? | |||
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". . . Or is the sexual equality objectionable to you?" We simply put that example in as an example of how discrimination, for or against, exists everywhere. But do feel free to bring in your own agenda Sonny . . so many others have. | |||
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". . . 'Some animals are more equal than others.' Look common sense is not allowed in this thread. Now I ask you to please take all your intelligence and go elsewhere
Whilst it's true that the word "discrimination" may be working in two different directions here that is life, nobody has the automatic right to either conduct a business that others don't want nor - listen up - does the presence of a swinging club mean ANYBODY is permitted through the doors. Business is business . . as the Scottish Golf Club that has lost the right to home the Open has found out recently.
Lot of envious back-biting in this thread. "I'm Baaack! I'm not envious. Certainly not. I just see the double standards. Why stand up and shout that all swingers are being discriminated within UK society, and in the same breath discriminate some swingers in his own environment when running his event? Hence the Orwell quote. And as Law and Order says. Do we want to be represented in this way? I think the OP thought he would automatically be backed up and couldn't even deal with the basics such as cleaning up his profile before posting. Not a clever move. OP has dug himself in a PR hole. Nobody helped him. He did it all by himself. Which gives rise to the question... is he a good business man? I leave that to the fabbers to make their mind on that one. Plenty of us have. | |||
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"Lots of disgraceful behaviour on this thread. A lot of you are taking the hump with the owners bussiness. Try looking at the actual point because it's important. People cannot be discriminated due to their sexual orinentation. But swingers do not have the same leagal safeguards. The reason we do not have these safeguards is because we have no "stonewall" no public face, and nobody to represent us. This needs to change. " No it does not. We do not face attacks in the street. We do not Dave institutional discrimination, we do not face threats and violence form those who disagree with us. The two are not comparable and are not even in the same ball park. This ridiculous sabre rattling fails singularly to understand anything about swinging and what people do. We do not face legal censure for our sexual activities, many people disagree with them but we cannot be jailed, or worse for carrying them out provided we give due consideration for the privacy of others. The fact that opening clubs to provide people a place to go and rut is very difficult and requires a lot of work does not mean we are oppressed. There is no reason to cause a problem because there is not a problem. | |||
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"Lots of disgraceful behaviour on this thread. A lot of you are taking the hump with the owners bussiness. Try looking at the actual point because it's important. People cannot be discriminated due to their sexual orinentation. But swingers do not have the same leagal safeguards. The reason we do not have these safeguards is because we have no "stonewall" no public face, and nobody to represent us. This needs to change. No it does not. We do not face attacks in the street. We do not Dave institutional discrimination, we do not face threats and violence form those who disagree with us. The two are not comparable and are not even in the same ball park. This ridiculous sabre rattling fails singularly to understand anything about swinging and what people do. We do not face legal censure for our sexual activities, many people disagree with them but we cannot be jailed, or worse for carrying them out provided we give due consideration for the privacy of others. The fact that opening clubs to provide people a place to go and rut is very difficult and requires a lot of work does not mean we are oppressed. There is no reason to cause a problem because there is not a problem. " Nice that you are the authority to decide that for all of us. Some of us have lost jobs after being outed as swingers which is basically the definition of institutional discrimination. | |||
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"We do not face legal censure for our sexual activities, many people disagree with them but we cannot be jailed, or worse for carrying them out provided we give due consideration for the privacy of others." A quick search on Google will reveal countless instances of swingers who've lost their jobs, lost custody of their children, been forced to leave home, or been subject to violent harassment. As for your claim that we don't face legal censure, that very much depends on the jurisdiction. Also, you say that we don't face 'institutional discrimination' or 'attacks in the street;' perhaps not, but that's largely because we carry out our activities 'out of sight, out of mind.' Of course you can't compare the position of the swinging community to that of the LGBT community, but that doesn't mean that the public perception of swinging does not require to be changed. | |||
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"Lots of disgraceful behaviour on this thread. A lot of you are taking the hump with the owners bussiness. Try looking at the actual point because it's important. People cannot be discriminated due to their sexual orinentation. But swingers do not have the same leagal safeguards. The reason we do not have these safeguards is because we have no "stonewall" no public face, and nobody to represent us. This needs to change. No it does not. We do not face attacks in the street. We do not Dave institutional discrimination, we do not face threats and violence form those who disagree with us. The two are not comparable and are not even in the same ball park. This ridiculous sabre rattling fails singularly to understand anything about swinging and what people do. We do not face legal censure for our sexual activities, many people disagree with them but we cannot be jailed, or worse for carrying them out provided we give due consideration for the privacy of others. The fact that opening clubs to provide people a place to go and rut is very difficult and requires a lot of work does not mean we are oppressed. There is no reason to cause a problem because there is not a problem. Nice that you are the authority to decide that for all of us. Some of us have lost jobs after being outed as swingers which is basically the definition of institutional discrimination. " Well you guys seem to be deciding a lot on our behalf. So who has lost a job after being outed as a swinger? Was that the reason given by the employer? | |||
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"We do not face attacks in the street. We do not Dave institutional discrimination, we do not face threats and violence form those who disagree with us." It's lovely to hear that you are in a fortunate enough position to claim that you see no instances whatever of swingers facing oppression or discrimination... I'm sure that the members of Tudor Lodge in Birmingham will be delighted to hear that the knuckledragging thugs who attacked their club, and all the residents who labelled them as 'criminal elements,' 'risks to the safety of children,' and 'a disgrace to the community,' were a figment of their collective imagination... | |||
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"Dogging is a different ball park completely, more than one local area is off limits to families due to the the porn, dirty underwear and used condoms that are left behind, if people are going to use public outdoor space and not clean up after themselves then they deserve to have the police on their case to clean it up." My local dogging area is deep in a forest, no where near where the kids go and stuff. | |||
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"Dogging is a different ball park completely, more than one local area is off limits to families due to the the porn, dirty underwear and used condoms that are left behind, if people are going to use public outdoor space and not clean up after themselves then they deserve to have the police on their case to clean it up. My local dogging area is deep in a forest, no where near where the kids go and stuff. " Unless they are Japanese and their parents have left them there? | |||
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"Dogging is a different ball park completely, more than one local area is off limits to families due to the the porn, dirty underwear and used condoms that are left behind, if people are going to use public outdoor space and not clean up after themselves then they deserve to have the police on their case to clean it up. My local dogging area is deep in a forest, no where near where the kids go and stuff. " And you are sure of that are you? As a family we've walked through areas off the paths and found remnants of dogging, The fact is dogging does affect those that don't partake in the activities. | |||
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"Just as the 'club' not having the correct permissions being closed down, police acting against doggers is hardly an example of discrimination. Is dogging completely legal? If so carry on in the forest and have your day in court to state your case. Both cases are examples of people behaving outside, or on the very fringes of the law. We have not suffered discrimination, nor do we want anyone campaigning on our behalf. This thread was begun by someone trying to make money from swingers on the cheap, who got caught and came looking for sympathy and support which mostly he hasn't got." | |||
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"We have not suffered discrimination, nor do we want anyone campaigning on our behalf. " You may have been fortunate enough not to suffer discrimination. However, you are but one couple, and hardly representative of the community that is now global in nature. | |||
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"We have not suffered discrimination, nor do we want anyone campaigning on our behalf. You may have been fortunate enough not to suffer discrimination. However, you are but one couple, and hardly representative of the community that is now global in nature." Maybe this is for a new thread .... who has suffered discrimination as a swinger or because of swinging .... not based on hearsay, but as actually happened and not because of preferences within the swinging community but by those outside of it .... | |||
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"We have not suffered discrimination, nor do we want anyone campaigning on our behalf. You may have been fortunate enough not to suffer discrimination. However, you are but one couple, and hardly representative of the community that is now global in nature." We're not part of a 'community'. We are simply people who enjoy NSA sex. We don't live a 'lifestyle' either. Of the people we've met, running well into 4 figures, none have suffered discrimination. How many people have you met that have? | |||
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