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Legality and Clubs

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By *almah OP   Woman
over a year ago

Shipley

I am new here and recently went too a number of Clubs

the one thing I noticed was the lack of Insurance .So I thought do they have Planning .Building regs . Fire cert.Plus everything else one requires.I have even been to one where they allow customers to smoke indoors.I am in the process of starting my own business so now I notice that sort of thing. Just remember you may not come home one morning. Salmah

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

what clubs id you go to?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When Xotix was being set up they had to have fire regulations and I'm sure anywhere that deals with the public has to be insured. Also building regulations are strict too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If its a business they must Conform or get shut down

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

..i believe all these buildings would need a license of some sort. For all that, insurance is definately required. Then, comes the question of planning permission. All the regulations must have been complied with for the building to be built/converted for it's purpose.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow


"..i believe all these buildings would need a license of some sort. For all that, insurance is definately required. Then, comes the question of planning permission. All the regulations must have been complied with for the building to be built/converted for it's purpose.

"

There's sometimes a difference between what a business should have, may have had at one time and has now.

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By *iceguy83Man
over a year ago

manchester

I know of two clubs that both allow smoking in designated smoking rooms.

One is exceptionally highly rated on here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I am new here and recently went too a number of Clubs

the one thing I noticed was the lack of Insurance .So I thought do they have Planning .Building regs . Fire cert.Plus everything else one requires.I have even been to one where they allow customers to smoke indoors.I am in the process of starting my own business so now I notice that sort of thing. Just remember you may not come home one morning. Salmah "

I think you should name the clubs that you are claiming have no insurance.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I know of one in Manchester that allows smoking inside and makes the place smell.

Im sure most follow rules and regs and have insurance ive only come across 1 that allows it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How did you know they had no insurance? It may have been on display in an office. Was the night was that bad that spent it looking for certificates

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By *heScotandthegirlCouple
over a year ago

London & Edinburgh


"How did you know they had no insurance? It may have been on display in an office. Was the night was that bad that spent it looking for certificates"

I'd be careful what you say without any evidence, most clubs will be operating with insurance/licence/inspections etc!

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By *iFemaleStr8MaleCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

I think if they are private members clubs that take the names of the people in attendance then they fall in tp a legal gray area, so gray that a prosecution would never be attempted. X

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

are the gangbangs the op advertises insured? cos if theres money changing hands its frowned upon on here and it generating income so its a business??? kettle and pot

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By *uietlykinkymeWoman
over a year ago

kinky land


"I know of one in Manchester that allows smoking inside and makes the place smell.

Im sure most follow rules and regs and have insurance ive only come across 1 that allows it."

Oooh pm me the name pretty please x

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By *ushandkittyCouple
over a year ago

Gloucester


"I am new here and recently went too a number of Clubs

the one thing I noticed was the lack of Insurance .So I thought do they have Planning .Building regs . Fire cert.Plus everything else one requires.I have even been to one where they allow customers to smoke indoors.I am in the process of starting my own business so now I notice that sort of thing. Just remember you may not come home one morning. Salmah

I think you should name the clubs that you are claiming have no insurance. "

Now now, How many times have we been told that FAB frowns upon the practise of naming and shaming!

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By *uietlykinkymeWoman
over a year ago

kinky land

I haven't checked but it's come up on here a fair few times. Isn't is 21 years to get into a lot of clubs???

I think it very very unlikely that proper swinging clubs arn't running the correct insurance, and running within their boundaries (well apart from that one, that was shut down; and the other one that never got legs to start with )

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No clubs or organisations are or should be above the law as minimum should have public liability insurance or else they are not legal and potentially anyone stepping onto premises are unable to claim any damages should say for example slip and injure themselves then any claim would have to charged to the owners as individuals and rightly so.

As for smoking inside tge buildings it is against the law to allow smoking on or allow smoking to enter the building its that simple i would gladly report any club or organisatulion flouting the laws we all have to abide by.

Swingers clubs are no different to any other business.

I think this is just as bad as drivers who cause accidents and have no insurance as a result we all end up paying more so same applies with club owners without insurance.

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By *ooldudeMan
over a year ago

manchester

Its quite simple really when entering a club as to see both the Employers and Public liability certificates they should be placed on a wall in a prominent position. As far as I am aware it is illegal to operate without Employers but not public. However remember if you enter a premises without Public Liability you are not covered in the event of a fire or accident so I would suggest ask the question. The owners would not be considering the welfare of customers if they operate without but many do.

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By *lubPartyPeepsCouple
over a year ago

London

I find the basis for this post highly disingenous and lacking in credability to say the least.

We can't really imagine someone going into several clubs and asking for their insurance certificate please. Nor would an 18 year old be allowed into several clubs in the UK, almost 70% of them. But of course as stated, this is a shared profile, so we don't actually know who is writing this post but it certainly doesn't sound like an eighteen year old girl who happens to have an interest in health and safety as a part time hobby.

We are aware of a couple of clubs who have got around the 'no smoking' laws by using the private room loop hole in the law. Not something we would suggest is a good idea, but can be gotten away with, plus private parties in a house of course don't need to comply to this rule either. That said, we find it hard to see the actual point of this post. If the poster has an issue with one particular club or establishment, why aren't they simply naming the club in question? Secondly, why are not qualifying their statement about lack of insurance by stating how it is they actually know this?

Balance that with comments of the profile of 'Why do I need a photo?' and 'No verifications please because I don't want to look like a slag'. Doesn't exactly have the basis for a genuine profile. We suspect the motivation behind this post are completely different.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I am new here and recently went too a number of Clubs

the one thing I noticed was the lack of Insurance .So I thought do they have Planning .Building regs . Fire cert.Plus everything else one requires.I have even been to one where they allow customers to smoke indoors.I am in the process of starting my own business so now I notice that sort of thing. Just remember you may not come home one morning. Salmah

I think you should name the clubs that you are claiming have no insurance. "

and if you do prepare to be sued for deformation, and to be banned from here for naming and shaming

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I find the basis for this post highly disingenous and lacking in credability to say the least.

We can't really imagine someone going into several clubs and asking for their insurance certificate please. Nor would an 18 year old be allowed into several clubs in the UK, almost 70% of them. But of course as stated, this is a shared profile, so we don't actually know who is writing this post but it certainly doesn't sound like an eighteen year old girl who happens to have an interest in health and safety as a part time hobby.

We are aware of a couple of clubs who have got around the 'no smoking' laws by using the private room loop hole in the law. Not something we would suggest is a good idea, but can be gotten away with, plus private parties in a house of course don't need to comply to this rule either. That said, we find it hard to see the actual point of this post. If the poster has an issue with one particular club or establishment, why aren't they simply naming the club in question? Secondly, why are not qualifying their statement about lack of insurance by stating how it is they actually know this?

Balance that with comments of the profile of 'Why do I need a photo?' and 'No verifications please because I don't want to look like a slag'. Doesn't exactly have the basis for a genuine profile. We suspect the motivation behind this post are completely different.

"

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By *uietlykinkymeWoman
over a year ago

kinky land


"I am new here and recently went too a number of Clubs

the one thing I noticed was the lack of Insurance .So I thought do they have Planning .Building regs . Fire cert.Plus everything else one requires.I have even been to one where they allow customers to smoke indoors.I am in the process of starting my own business so now I notice that sort of thing. Just remember you may not come home one morning. Salmah

I think you should name the clubs that you are claiming have no insurance.

and if you do prepare to be sued for deformation, and to be banned from here for naming and shaming"

people, you cant name and shame people.

Quick someone close down all the forum club bits...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I am new here and recently went too a number of Clubs

the one thing I noticed was the lack of Insurance .So I thought do they have Planning .Building regs . Fire cert.Plus everything else one requires.I have even been to one where they allow customers to smoke indoors.I am in the process of starting my own business so now I notice that sort of thing. Just remember you may not come home one morning. Salmah

I think you should name the clubs that you are claiming have no insurance.

and if you do prepare to be sued for deformation, and to be banned from here for naming and shaming"

Surely whats more important is if confirmed a club or organisation does not have the relevant insurance that others abide by then i would risk a forum ban as this is about clubs ooerating within the law.

Sadly without going to clubs and checking each one will be hard to prove but anyone with actual proof should have balks to report.

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By *ushandkittyCouple
over a year ago

Gloucester


"I am new here and recently went too a number of Clubs

the one thing I noticed was the lack of Insurance .So I thought do they have Planning .Building regs . Fire cert.Plus everything else one requires.I have even been to one where they allow customers to smoke indoors.I am in the process of starting my own business so now I notice that sort of thing. Just remember you may not come home one morning. Salmah

I think you should name the clubs that you are claiming have no insurance.

and if you do prepare to be sued for deformation, and to be banned from here for naming and shaming

Surely whats more important is if confirmed a club or organisation does not have the relevant insurance that others abide by then i would risk a forum ban as this is about clubs ooerating within the law.

Sadly without going to clubs and checking each one will be hard to prove but anyone with actual proof should have balks to report."

Naming and shaming in here is just considered mud slinging.

IF the OP has genuine concerns about the illegality of the club/clubs surely the place to be mentioning such establishments are to the relevant authorities. But somehow we think that the OP won't be so keen to take this option, whether it be anonymously or not!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't walk into a pub and look for a copy of PLI and ELI insurance on the wall, any more than I do when I walk into my local Tescos. ( public liability / employers liability insurance)

If someone wants to run swingers club without the appropriate licences and insurances it's pretty much up to them.

However, if someone were to have an accident on the premises and litigate against the tenant or the person running the club night and be successful, the tenant or club host could loose everything including their family home to pay both the legal costs and the damages awarded against them, so they would have to be pretty damn silly not to have insurance.

Having said that, in order to get PLI and ELI insurance you have so satisfy certain criteria (e.g. For a premise holder to get PLI insurance they would need a current fire certificate) and any club allowing smoking inside the premises would invalidate their insurance anyway.

Anyway, if the OP has a beef regarding the matter, they need to contact the Environmental Health Department at the council covering the club, as they control licensed sex establishments and private members clubs.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The reason that I suggested that the op should name the club(s) in question was not to encourage naming and shaming but because it is clear that they won't/can't.

Despite not naming the club, I'm not sure how this thread is anything other than mud-slinging? It is just unsubstantiated scare-mongering.

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By *lackCherryCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

Isn't this the same OP that got "given" a massive building she was going to turn into a club, but never actually did from what I can tell ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Isn't this the same OP that got "given" a massive building she was going to turn into a club, but never actually did from what I can tell ?

"

Yes that's the one

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Does that mean I can claim if I have to run out the club naked lol xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Isn't this the same OP that got "given" a massive building she was going to turn into a club, but never actually did from what I can tell ?

Yes that's the one "

Gotta love the little green arrow!

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By *uietlykinkymeWoman
over a year ago

kinky land


"Isn't this the same OP that got "given" a massive building she was going to turn into a club, but never actually did from what I can tell ?

Yes that's the one

Gotta love the little green arrow! "

Oh yes + I kindly bumped her thread

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Isn't this the same OP that got "given" a massive building she was going to turn into a club, but never actually did from what I can tell ?

Yes that's the one

Gotta love the little green arrow!

Oh yes + I kindly bumped her thread "

I'm loving the green arrow, kind of get a feeling about what types of 'topics' people raise and the porkies they tell lol

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By *heRainManMan
over a year ago

Warrington & Glasgow


"The reason that I suggested that the op should name the club(s) in question was not to encourage naming and shaming but because it is clear that they won't/can't.

Despite not naming the club, I'm not sure how this thread is anything other than mud-slinging? It is just unsubstantiated scare-mongering."
I really don't know what gives you that impression! I'm absolutely certain that this thread is purely public spirited and has nothing to do with the OP's other thread stating that she intends opening a club later this year!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ha this post is a cracker!! Best I've seen In a while.

You can get personal swinging insurance from Norwich Union I think..

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By *rummiePartyManMan
over a year ago

birmingham

Most of the clubs run as clubs have to be properly insured and inspected by fire authorities...and their books audited and submitted to the tax authorities. I don't have worries about going to proper clubs as such.

Where you'll find problems is where people run "parties", "gangbangs" etc in their own homes or in hotel rooms, and charge admission "to cover costs" (and the rest). Household insurance usually doesn't cover any activities run for profit, and you can't tell me that what some admission charges are set at there won't be a profit made. If anyone had a loss or injury at such a gangbang etc then they could have a tough time getting any compensation. Most such organisers trust to claims never coming their way and people being to embarrassed to make a claim, so get away with it.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

I've said it's many times before but sex and money just don't mix.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There is no Private room loophole in the Law regarding smoking, The law is very clear in that if anybody is paid to work in them premises the that becomes a workplace and smoking is banned, If a workman enters my house then i am not allowed by Law to smoke.

Pretty Simple really

Gary

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I haven't checked but it's come up on here a fair few times. Isn't is 21 years to get into a lot of clubs???

I think it very very unlikely that proper swinging clubs arn't running the correct insurance, and running within their boundaries (well apart from that one, that was shut down; and the other one that never got legs to start with )"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"There is no Private room loophole in the Law regarding smoking, The law is very clear in that if anybody is paid to work in them premises the that becomes a workplace and smoking is banned, If a workman enters my house then i am not allowed by Law to smoke.

Pretty Simple really

Gary"

Yes you can. It's your house, NOT a place of work. It's his choice if he want's to enter. He is not your employee.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just make sure you don't help him, then it becomes YOUR place of work to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I find the basis for this post highly disingenous and lacking in credability to say the least.

We can't really imagine someone going into several clubs and asking for their insurance certificate please. Nor would an 18 year old be allowed into several clubs in the UK, almost 70% of them. But of course as stated, this is a shared profile, so we don't actually know who is writing this post but it certainly doesn't sound like an eighteen year old girl who happens to have an interest in health and safety as a part time hobby.

We are aware of a couple of clubs who have got around the 'no smoking' laws by using the private room loop hole in the law. Not something we would suggest is a good idea, but can be gotten away with, plus private parties in a house of course don't need to comply to this rule either. That said, we find it hard to see the actual point of this post. If the poster has an issue with one particular club or establishment, why aren't they simply naming the club in question? Secondly, why are not qualifying their statement about lack of insurance by stating how it is they actually know this?

Balance that with comments of the profile of 'Why do I need a photo?' and 'No verifications please because I don't want to look like a slag'. Doesn't exactly have the basis for a genuine profile. We suspect the motivation behind this post are completely different.

"

What they said...!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"There is no Private room loophole in the Law regarding smoking, The law is very clear in that if anybody is paid to work in them premises the that becomes a workplace and smoking is banned, If a workman enters my house then i am not allowed by Law to smoke.

Pretty Simple really

Gary

Yes you can. It's your house, NOT a place of work. It's his choice if he want's to enter. He is not your employee."

If someone is paid to carry out work it automatically becomes their place of work, He/She does not have to be my Employee simply Employed

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"There is no Private room loophole in the Law regarding smoking, The law is very clear in that if anybody is paid to work in them premises the that becomes a workplace and smoking is banned, If a workman enters my house then i am not allowed by Law to smoke.

Pretty Simple really

Gary

Yes you can. It's your house, NOT a place of work. It's his choice if he want's to enter. He is not your employee.

If someone is paid to carry out work it automatically becomes their place of work, He/She does not have to be my Employee simply Employed"

They can refuse to enter - but cannot insist you don't smoke in your own home.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"There is no Private room loophole in the Law regarding smoking, The law is very clear in that if anybody is paid to work in them premises the that becomes a workplace and smoking is banned, If a workman enters my house then i am not allowed by Law to smoke.

Pretty Simple really

Gary

Yes you can. It's your house, NOT a place of work. It's his choice if he want's to enter. He is not your employee.

If someone is paid to carry out work it automatically becomes their place of work, He/She does not have to be my Employee simply Employed

They can refuse to enter - but cannot insist you don't smoke in your own home."

Quite Correct, As they would be correct in refusing to enter,let me swing this round 180 degrees if i was still managing pubs and a workman had need to go upstairs to the living Quarters as a managed property i could not refuse them access, The area automatically becomes their place of work and as such i could be Prosecuted under the revised Licensing laws 01/07/2007 which also covers every property in England Managed by a Local Authority

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"There is no Private room loophole in the Law regarding smoking, The law is very clear in that if anybody is paid to work in them premises the that becomes a workplace and smoking is banned, If a workman enters my house then i am not allowed by Law to smoke.

Pretty Simple really

Gary

Yes you can. It's your house, NOT a place of work. It's his choice if he want's to enter. He is not your employee.

If someone is paid to carry out work it automatically becomes their place of work, He/She does not have to be my Employee simply Employed

They can refuse to enter - but cannot insist you don't smoke in your own home.

Quite Correct, As they would be correct in refusing to enter,let me swing this round 180 degrees if i was still managing pubs and a workman had need to go upstairs to the living Quarters as a managed property i could not refuse them access, The area automatically becomes their place of work and as such i could be Prosecuted under the revised Licensing laws 01/07/2007 which also covers every property in England Managed by a Local Authority"

But not a privately owned dwelling!

Your example works for pubs.

Also - Social housing tenants are 'requested' by most housing associationcouncil landlords not to smoke when employees of housing associations visit (including maintenance workers0 - but cannot be forced not to. Staff are informed they should simply refuse to enter if they wish but the tenant cannot be in any way prosecuted.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Quite correct. It's all in the language. "requested" to some people means " I have to do what they say". You don't....and shouldn't. It's a creeping menace.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"There is no Private room loophole in the Law regarding smoking, The law is very clear in that if anybody is paid to work in them premises the that becomes a workplace and smoking is banned, If a workman enters my house then i am not allowed by Law to smoke.

Pretty Simple really

Gary

Yes you can. It's your house, NOT a place of work. It's his choice if he want's to enter. He is not your employee.

If someone is paid to carry out work it automatically becomes their place of work, He/She does not have to be my Employee simply Employed

They can refuse to enter - but cannot insist you don't smoke in your own home.

Quite Correct, As they would be correct in refusing to enter,let me swing this round 180 degrees if i was still managing pubs and a workman had need to go upstairs to the living Quarters as a managed property i could not refuse them access, The area automatically becomes their place of work and as such i could be Prosecuted under the revised Licensing laws 01/07/2007 which also covers every property in England Managed by a Local Authority

But not a privately owned dwelling!

Your example works for pubs.

Also - Social housing tenants are 'requested' by most housing associationcouncil landlords not to smoke when employees of housing associations visit (including maintenance workers0 - but cannot be forced not to. Staff are informed they should simply refuse to enter if they wish but the tenant cannot be in any way prosecuted."

I take your point, Funnily enough i haven't had anything from my Council in connection with this but six months after the ban came into force i had a boiler check and the workman who turned up informed me that if i smoked anywhere in the house he would walk away and i would be in breach of my tenancy agreement in failing to allow him access which would result in me getting an eviction order and prosecution..note i said would not could, suffice to say he and i had strong words, bounder and cad springs to mind

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"There is no Private room loophole in the Law regarding smoking, The law is very clear in that if anybody is paid to work in them premises the that becomes a workplace and smoking is banned, If a workman enters my house then i am not allowed by Law to smoke.

Pretty Simple really

Gary

Yes you can. It's your house, NOT a place of work. It's his choice if he want's to enter. He is not your employee.

If someone is paid to carry out work it automatically becomes their place of work, He/She does not have to be my Employee simply Employed

They can refuse to enter - but cannot insist you don't smoke in your own home.

Quite Correct, As they would be correct in refusing to enter,let me swing this round 180 degrees if i was still managing pubs and a workman had need to go upstairs to the living Quarters as a managed property i could not refuse them access, The area automatically becomes their place of work and as such i could be Prosecuted under the revised Licensing laws 01/07/2007 which also covers every property in England Managed by a Local Authority

But not a privately owned dwelling!

Your example works for pubs.

Also - Social housing tenants are 'requested' by most housing associationcouncil landlords not to smoke when employees of housing associations visit (including maintenance workers0 - but cannot be forced not to. Staff are informed they should simply refuse to enter if they wish but the tenant cannot be in any way prosecuted.

I take your point, Funnily enough i haven't had anything from my Council in connection with this but six months after the ban came into force i had a boiler check and the workman who turned up informed me that if i smoked anywhere in the house he would walk away and i would be in breach of my tenancy agreement in failing to allow him access which would result in me getting an eviction order and prosecution..note i said would not could, suffice to say he and i had strong words, bounder and cad springs to mind "

You should have kicked him in the bollocks then offered him a fag lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"There is no Private room loophole in the Law regarding smoking, The law is very clear in that if anybody is paid to work in them premises the that becomes a workplace and smoking is banned, If a workman enters my house then i am not allowed by Law to smoke.

Pretty Simple really

Gary

Yes you can. It's your house, NOT a place of work. It's his choice if he want's to enter. He is not your employee.

If someone is paid to carry out work it automatically becomes their place of work, He/She does not have to be my Employee simply Employed

They can refuse to enter - but cannot insist you don't smoke in your own home.

Quite Correct, As they would be correct in refusing to enter,let me swing this round 180 degrees if i was still managing pubs and a workman had need to go upstairs to the living Quarters as a managed property i could not refuse them access, The area automatically becomes their place of work and as such i could be Prosecuted under the revised Licensing laws 01/07/2007 which also covers every property in England Managed by a Local Authority

But not a privately owned dwelling!

Your example works for pubs.

Also - Social housing tenants are 'requested' by most housing associationcouncil landlords not to smoke when employees of housing associations visit (including maintenance workers0 - but cannot be forced not to. Staff are informed they should simply refuse to enter if they wish but the tenant cannot be in any way prosecuted.

I take your point, Funnily enough i haven't had anything from my Council in connection with this but six months after the ban came into force i had a boiler check and the workman who turned up informed me that if i smoked anywhere in the house he would walk away and i would be in breach of my tenancy agreement in failing to allow him access which would result in me getting an eviction order and prosecution..note i said would not could, suffice to say he and i had strong words, bounder and cad springs to mind "

FFS just put ur fag out for 10 minutes!!!

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By *lubPartyPeepsCouple
over a year ago

London

As you were, apparently, considering opening your own club at one stage.

The words you've been rumbled come to mind.

Probably the most valuable lesson here, if your going to open your own club, is know your own market first, focus on what your going to offer and be the best at that.

Don't concern yourself with bad mouthing other establishments. That will come back to haunt you in a major major way.

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By *ity Slickers PartiesCouple (MM)
over a year ago

Milan, Italy

Whilst at first glance, it may seem that swinger parties and clubs are perfectly legal in Britain, a little deeper digging reveals Acts of Parliament that can easily be used to prosecute the owners of clubs and others hosting swinger parties. Most people assume that swinger clubs are completely legal in 21st century Britain and they certainly should be in a modern, 'liberated' democracy, yet although nobody can object the opening of such clubs on moral grounds, there are ways which can indirectly affect such activities taking place.

In Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France and Spain there is absolutely no question about it. When people in those countries attend a swinger party in a swinger club they are attending a legal event in a legal establishment.

In Britain, the water is actually quite murky simply because there is no such a thing as a “Swinger Licence” and in principle there is no act of Parliament that directly defines swinging as being illegal, there is nothing that defines a swinger party as being an illegal event, nor are there anything that specifically forbid the setting up of premises for the purpose of holding such events… however it is not alien to hear that some clubs are under pressure from the various authorities.

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By *i015Man
over a year ago

Millbrook, Southampton

I don't know about other parts of the UK but in Southampton the local club got shut down because it didn't have a license to operate, it needed a sex establishment licence which is the same licence that lap dancing clubs need to operate

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